White Labs substitute?

[Zoltan]

I've been using White Labs California Ale Yeast WLP001 for my IPA. I'm happy with it, but they've repackaged it in a plastic-ridden "Pure Pitch" pouch and doubled the price. Since I use two pouches for my recipe, the price increase is significant. The new pouch doesn't offer anything that I can see--more plastic waste, and since I use the entire contents, no advantage to having something reclosable. So I'm mad about this. Can anyone suggest something similar from another manufacturer?

 

[IslandLizard]

I guess you're not making (yeast) starters? Well, you should, for more than one reason.
Buy one pack and overbuild your starters. You use some in a batch, and save out the rest for a next starter, etc.

There are different ways to propagate and save out yeast for longer times.
That way you can use the same yeast for many batches/years to come.

Another approach is repitching. Yeast typically grows 4-5 fold in a batch, so one batch can supply yeast for 4-5 new batches, etc. As long as you keep good sanitation you can repitch many times.

There are plenty of threads and posts here on this topic.

 

[day_trippr]

YEAST SUBSTITUTION LIST​

White Labs	Wyeast	Omega	Imperial	Lallemand	Fermentis
WLP001 California Ale	1056 American Ale	OYL-004 West Coast Ale I	A07 Flagship	BRY-97 American West Coast	US-05

fwiw, I have used all but the Omega product - including BRY-97 for the first time - and would use any of those again.
I usually keep overbuilds in the fridge but with the Lallemand I top-cropped to a mason jar and will try farming that...

Cheers!

 

[Dog House Brew]

If you’re happy with it, why not buy it and make an over sized starter? Pitch part into your beer and save some for the fridge. You could do this for a longtime from one pack. I get it, too expensive and I also don’t care for the packaging. I’d say US-05 or WY1056. I also think there are other yeast companies that make an 001 variant.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Everyone beat me to it. I believe Omega makes an actual 001, where the others are similar.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm angry with White Labs as well.

Try BRY-97, S-04, or US-05. Cheaper and easier, keeps for decades in the refrigerator and you don't need to make a yeast starter.

 

[Bobby_M]

Omega is my go-to for most strains that they sell. If you catch it fresh, it's 200B cells for just over 9 bucks.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Any of the above dry yeasts. Are liquid yeasts now the Homebrew Betamax?

 

[user 246304]

The LBS where I work said WL is moving out of the retail market, and so we are going to Wyeast Smack packs almost entirely. Is that true? Bummer, as I always liked their yeast. I had a full complement of slants from them and many others, before I sold everything off.

Side query, but on occasion I bought from Brewlabs in the UK. Can't tell from their site if they're still selling directly, and if that, overseas. Anyone know?

 

[Bobby_M]

The LBS where I work said WL is moving out of the retail market, and so we are going to Wyeast Smack packs almost entirely. Is that true? Bummer, as I always liked their yeast. I had a full complement of slants from them and many others, before I sold everything off.

Side query, but on occasion I bought from Brewlabs in the UK. Can't tell from their site if they're still selling directly, and if that, overseas. Anyone know?

I haven't heard anything like that. Why would WL go all through that effort to roll out new packaging only to drop it within a year?

 

[MaxStout]

Why would WL go all through that effort to roll out new packaging only to drop it within a year?

This could be a top-level decision to exit a market with a shrinking retail base, despite the previous expenditure in re-packaging. If a market segment is no longer profitable, better to cut one's losses and get out, rather than keep spending good money after bad.

Or, this could all be just a rumor, spread by some LHBS.

 

[camonick]

I’m disappointed with white labs “new” move too. I think the economics of it will start to show soon for their accounting department. I only have a few styles where I prefer liquid yeast and their strains to boot, but I only brew them once or rarely twice a year. I understand the the process of overbuilding starters or saving slurry, but it’s hard for me to store it for months at a time or more. I, personally, will be exploring some different options.

 

[dmtaylor]

So anywho... I might as well plop this down to anyone looking for White Labs substitutions. It's sorted by White Labs for the most part, always has been. Cheers.

YEAST MASTER Perma-Living by Yours Truly

 

[day_trippr]

How does one interpret the "Not" lines - like this one?

Danstar-Lallemand

Fermentis

Mangrove Jack

White Labs

Wyeast

Sources

Attributes & Comments

Other Manufacturers

(NOT New England)

(NOT S-04)

(NOT WLP002)

1968 London ESB

suregork, DMT, NB, Bruolosophy

close to Conan, prolly not Fullers, 69% atten

(NOT A09 Pub)

Yikes!

 

[dmtaylor]

@day_trippr, that line is dedicated to the Wyeast 1968. The point there is basically that nothing is equivalent to the 1968, at least not out of the manufacturers that are listed next to it. Sorry for the confusion; however, sometimes I find that an important part of the truth is knowing what is NOT true. Ever play the game Clue? Think of my sheet as something like that. It's been a long journey to get the list to this point, and perhaps as a result, the list doesn't change very often anymore. But it is still a Living list.

EDIT: By the way, thanks for pointing out the spelling error. Fixed.

 

[day_trippr]

Lol "Clue"
Ok, I've saved it to my G-Drive, and will take a deeper look at it when I'm not under the influence...

Cheers!

 

[broot]

You can also get wlp001 on a dry yeast, but i do like 1056

 

[user 246304]

I haven't heard anything like that. Why would WL go all through that effort to roll out new packaging only to drop it within a year?

I think I owe an apology as reading the above now, I am likely misinterpreting what he said. Playing catchup after a years' long hiatus so I should be more careful with what I say. It may be that he is finding WL's decision to sell in this new packaging at a higher price wasn't moving, and so he's going to Wyeast solely. Just an early dig around the web seems to be mirroring this at other places (just found this one here, actually).

 

[Bobby_M]

I think I owe an apology as reading the above now, I am likely misinterpreting what he said. Playing catchup after a years' long hiatus so I should be more careful with what I say. It may be that he is finding WL's decision to sell in this new packaging at a higher price wasn't moving, and so he's going to Wyeast solely. Just an early dig around the web seems to be mirroring this at other places (just found this one here, actually).

Well in that case I agree. I was on a WL retailer roundtable zoom call this year and asked them for help in understanding the angle in selling 145B cells for a premium over Omega and Imperial (who put 200B cells in each pack) and I was told the product is just better and they stand behind it. Then two other homebrew shop owners/ WL fanboys basically said no one price compares liquid yeast and they just buy the strain they need. I'd be checking if those guys are still in business come Spring 2024. In any case, I did the analysis with various wort makeups/batch sizes and there is rarely a case where WL wins. I still carry it because I JUST started carrying it right before the big packs were forced into the market and I put a lot of effort into the project. I know, sunk costs and all but that and the fact that WL really is the "incumbent" player in the market and some people just want it. I sell 3-4 packs of Omega for every WL.

 

[day_trippr]

I suspect "inertia" wrt yeast preferences may be a thing. I've always leaned towards Wyeast because that's what the lhbs "I brew up with" carried as their primary line, and so it's what I'm most familiar with and most confident using. I have a similar comfort level with Fermentis at least wrt S04 and US-05, and some of Imperial's offerings. I recently used my very first Lallemand product (BRY-97) which appeared to run almost exactly as US-05, but it's not quite "done" yet (which, come to think of it, is also similar to US-05 and it's protracted fermentation )

Cheers!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Everyone beat me to it. I believe Omega makes an actual 001, where the others are similar.

The Omega one is not "the actual" WLP001, but it is part of the same subgroup as 001 along with Escarpment, formerly Giga and others, distinguished by a chromosome recombination that fixes the BAT1 mutation found in the 1056/US-05 subgroup which affects amnio acid metabolism and has all sorts of knock-on effects. See this for more :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...f-white-labs-yeast.642831/page-2#post-8916547

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I use two pouches for my recipe, the price increase is significant. The new pouch doesn't offer anything that I can see--more plastic waste, and since I use the entire contents, no advantage to having something reclosable.

I am not sure if it was pointed out, but the new packs for twice the price also have about twice the yeast. If you used to use 2 packs of the older White Labs packs, you should be able to switch to using 1 pack of the new packaging. You could also use 1 pack of yeast from Imperial, Omega or some other yeast labs that package 200B or more cells per pack.

I have been a While Labs fan for many years, but Chris White dragged his feet for years about increasing cell counts. Now that they did increase cell counts, they jacked the price above the competitors and have not been fully honest about the cell counts. I thought they used to claim the old packs were 100B cells, and the new packs are "double", but the specs put them closer to 150B cells. At my local shop, White Labs packs are $2 more than Imperial and Omega. So it is not a large enough price that I would never purchase White Labs, but I will reach for Imperial or Omega first.

Well, I mostly use dry yeast these days. If I do pick up a liquid pack, I try to harvest and repitch to get at least a few batches out of one pack.

 

[user 246304]

Well....my ambition runneth over. My wife will surely kill me for even broaching the subject again, but I'm hoping to re-establish the home lab, with plates, slants/yeast banks, etc. With a body count in their time of a 4-tap kegerator, cask, cheese making gear and aging caves (2 in home, full aging cellar in basement), 20 gal 3-vessel spike system, an assortment of 20+ different flours, grains, and cracked grains, massive flour mill, dozens of bread-proofing bannetons and related, racks of leftover cookware from our restaurant, a reloading room and hunting weapons, wilderness hunting bags, tents and all related, way too many books and bookshelves,

-please wish me well in my attempt to build not only the home lab, but brewery and cellar back again.

 

[redrocker652002]

I have used S05 and Bry97. Both have done well for me, but I am no expert. I have also use Cali yeast and that has done well also. I am very interested in the harvesting of yeast and am going to give that a try soon. Need to do a bit more research. The easiest way seems to be just leave a bit of beer in your fermenter and swirl it around and split the remains in two or three mason jars. refridge and use on the next batch. Long term it would be fun to do tubes and freeze, but that is going to be a long ways out as I do not have freezer space for anything right now. Anyway, not much to add, but interesting topic

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I don't grasp the gripe about the packaging and it being plastic, aren't all liquid yeasts packed in some sort of plastic? Also as mentioned above the new packs have more cells and 1 pack will replace 2 of previous version. I could be wrong but I feel like I read somewhere that the new packs are supposed to keep the yeast count viability better.

 

[user 246304]

I don't grasp the gripe about the packaging and it being plastic, aren't all liquid yeasts packed in some sort of plastic? Also as mentioned above the new packs have more cells and 1 pack will replace 2 of previous version. I could be wrong but I feel like I read somewhere that the new packs are supposed to keep the yeast count viability better.

As I understand it, the issue is that some feel WL's viable count indications might have been a bit uneven in the past, that other producers came out with single packs that exceeded the WL counts, WL acted after the fact by introducing a pack that is after all, less than the counts of the other companies, and yet they are charging more for the (lesser) counts. I could be wrong.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Correct and I understand that, but if you buy a pack of omega that's 3 months old with 200b cells originally it may have have less viable cells then a 3 month old pure pitch from white labs. I could be wrong but I believe that was in something I read, on the always true and honest interwebs. I am not a WL only brewer I'll use whatever best suits me at the time, there are a lot of beers I make with WL but I also love Pub from imperial over wlp002 in any case I overbuild my starters and keep a bank of the ones I use on the regular.

 

[tdf]

I don't grasp the gripe about the packaging and it being plastic, aren't all liquid yeasts packed in some sort of plastic? Also as mentioned above the new packs have more cells and 1 pack will replace 2 of previous version. I could be wrong but I feel like I read somewhere that the new packs are supposed to keep the yeast count viability better.

I'm pretty sure there is less plastic in the new packages. The immediately previous had a hard plastic vial inside another plastic sleeve while the new packaging is just a (larger) plastic sleeve with a screw on lid.

I use white labs mostly because I'm in San Diego and I either get it straight from white labs or from a homebrew store where the packaging date is usually < 5 days prior.

 

[user 246304]

Correct and I understand that, but if you buy a pack of omega that's 3 months old with 200b cells originally it may have have less viable cells then a 3 month old pure pitch from white labs. I could be wrong but I believe that was in something I read, on the always true and honest interwebs. I am not a WL only brewer I'll use whatever best suits me at the time, there are a lot of beers I make with WL but I also love Pub from imperial over wlp002 in any case I overbuild my starters and keep a bank of the ones I use on the regular.

I think it's just an apples-to-apples thing - nominally they are offering less yeast for more money, and that's even after playing catch up. I used WL almost entirely, having moved off of Wyeast at some point - always loved WL. Personally I just think this was a strategically poor decision. I am really grateful to Chris White for what he's done and hope WL continues to do well, but I suspect this might be a problem down the road.

I actually never pitched directly from either Wyeast or WL. All my files were lost on a computer transfer some time ago, and I'm sure you guys know the spreadsheet, but I ramped up using parsed figures for viability and so forth, on a 12-gallon brewlength. So it was less about how many viable cells were in the pack, and more, the brewing and organoleptic qualities I enjoyed from the final pitch.

 

[bwible]

They’ve all changed over the years. I remember when White Labs was using the test tube looking containers that were actually 2L soda bottle blanks before they were heated and inflated. For a time, Wyeast used gold colored squeeze tubes that were supposed to be “pitchable” before they went back to smack packs.

I prefer liquid yeast, yeah, I know, get off my lawn. I’ve been a Wyeast guy for 25 years. I’ve tried White Labs here and there, always came back to Wyeast. I’ve tried Omega once or twice with decent results. Was never a fan of dry yeast, but Fermentis 34/70 impressed me.

Most of the yeast companies have a style to strain chart to tell you what styles they recommend which yeasts for. I’ve referred to those often but after 25 years you kind of know and you also have history to go on - what you made with which yeast and how much you liked it. IPA is one of the styles you probably have 30 yeast strains from different manufacturers you could use.

I either make a starter or make a weaker beer of the same general style first to build yeast. Like make a pale ale and then use that yeast cake to make a barleywine, for example.