White labs question

[Mad Hornet]

I was surprised to see this. I pitched a White Labs Kolsch yeast this Saturday night, no starter, 6.5 gallon batch and it was visibly active in less than 24 hours and by yesterday was going completely ape **** - 120 bubbles per minute through a 1/2 blow off tube. Going even more crazy this morning. I have two thoughts about your situation.

1. What temp did you store the pack of yeast after you brought it home from LHBS?
2. Are you getting enough aeration in that wort?

 

[MusicLife]

I was surprised to see this. I pitched a White Labs Kolsch yeast this Saturday night, no starter, 6.5 gallon batch and it was visibly active in less than 24 hours and by yesterday was going completely ape **** - 120 bubbles per minute through a 1/2 blow off tube. Going even more crazy this morning. I have two thoughts about your situation.

1. What temp did you store the pack of yeast after you brought it home from LHBS?
2. Are you getting enough aeration in that wort?

I stuck it in the fridge
And i shook the living sht out of the bucket before hand lol, im a relatively big dude and i was sweating after

 

[Mad Hornet]

I know at my house I have to pay attention to where i put stuff in the fridge. Got a supposedly smart refrigerator set for 37 degrees. But I noticed two weeks ago I had a jar of stewed tomatoes that froze!

But I also pulled it out about 9 hours before pitching and let it come up to room temp.

 

[VikeMan]

And i shook the living sht out of the bucket before hand lol, im a relatively big dude and i was sweating after

You could be The Hulk, but you'd still hit the same "shaking" dissolved O2 limit. Basically, when you reach a certain point, the O2 will be coming out of solution as fast as it's going in.

 

[h22lude]

I've had buckets that didn't seal well, also. In any case, even with carboys or whatever fermentation vessels you use, the air lock isn't a good way to monitor fermentation progress, as you say @Mtrhdltd

The lag time between pitching and visible fermentation activity is probably being taken up by the yeast multiplying - they're active, you just aren't seeing it - given the likely underpitching as others have suggested. Not a big deal. If you don't want to make a starter, nothing wrong with pitching multiple packs of wet yeast. The potential downside of underpitching is underattenuation and off-flavors from compounds produced by the yeast - like higher fruity esters or spicy phenols than you were looking for. Usually it doesn't ruin your beer, just makes it different than perhaps what you were looking for.

I'd say airlocks aren't a good way to tell if it is done fermenting but can used to at least see if it has started. If you don't see bubbles after 6 hours, you most likely underpitched or underaerated.

 

[MusicLife]

You could be The Hulk, but you'd still hit the same "shaking" dissolved O2 limit. Basically, when you reach a certain point, the O2 will be coming out of solution as fast as it's going in.

Yeah but its all I have. Its worked in the past lol.

 

[VikeMan]

Yeah but its all I have. Its worked in the past lol.

I think you mentioned this was a higher gravity wort. Higher gravity worts need more O2, because they need more yeast cell growth. The O2 allows them to build cell wall material. Without that, the cells are more limited in the number of times they can divide.

Also, there's a sort of double whammy, because it's actually harder to dissolve O2 in higher gravity wort.

 

[MusicLife]

I think you mentioned this was a higher gravity wort. Higher gravity worts need more O2, because they need more yeast cell growth. The O2 allows them to build cell wall material. Without that, the cells are more limited in the number of times they can divide.

Also, there's a sort of double whammy, because it's actually harder to dissolve O2 in higher gravity wort.

Slightly higher. Ended up being 1.060 which is higher than most ive brewed... not sure if it classifies as high tho.

What other ways can O2 be added?

 

[Pappers_]

What other ways can O2 be added?

I use a wand that screws onto an O2 cannister that you get at the hardware store. I bought mine from Williams Brewing a few years ago, they are available at pretty much every homebrew store. You sanitize it and after you've transferred to your fermentation vessel, you stick the wand into the bottom of the fermenter and turn on the O2 for a minute or two. Mine does not have a gauged regulator, so its kind of by guess LOL.

 

[Pappers_]

Do you have good results with multiple packs, or do you think a single pack with a starter is ultimately better? I've pitched two packs on a few occasions and still not reached my projected FG.

I've pitched up to four packs LOL, expensive but that's the price I paid for being lazy. I use a pitching calculator, to see what I need and generally follow whatever it says. I've used both Beersmith and Mr. Malty's calculators

 

[Pappers_]

For big beers, I sometimes try to plan my brews so I am brewing a smaller beer with a yeast strain and then saving a significant portion of the yeast to use in a bigger beer. I usually try to keep it for no more than a week or ten days, and might 'wake' it up a bit by letting it warm up or even adding a little wort to it.

 

[VikeMan]

What other ways can O2 be added?

You can do it with a filtered aquarium air pump with an airstone, but that's only slightly (if at all) more effective. The most effective way is pure O2. @Pappers described the least expensive cost of admission to that.

 

[Vale71]

You can do it with a filtered aquarium air pump with an airstone, but that's only slightly (if at all) more effective. The most effective way is pure O2. @Pappers described the least expensive cost of admission to that.

With a pump and aquarium stone you will always invariably reach full saturation for a given temperature. Pure O2 is just a shortcut that can easily end in over-oxygenation.

 

[VikeMan]

With a pump and aquarium stone you will always invariably reach full saturation for a given temperature. Pure O2 is just a shortcut that can easily end in over-oxygenation.

I agree that pure O2 can over oxygenate, if used without thinking.

 

[Vale71]

I agree that pure O2 can over oxygenate, if used without thinking.

Surely you mean without measuring??

 

[Mad Hornet]

Some might not approve of this method but I add cold tap water from our well softener and never have an issue with aeration. I also run all the wort through a metal strainer as it transfers to the carboy which I am told also provides aeration. My last batch was a partial mash.

 

[MusicLife]

would something like this be sufficient? for a cheap improvement over shaking the ish out of it? If im gonna invest a little more for some stuff for starters i might as well get the full step covered and improve aeration.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0854CWH5M/ref=crt_ewc_img_huc_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1WUA0WK56U4Q3

 

[bwible]

White Labs and Wyeast both advertise pitchable yeast. I’ve used both, and I tend to not make starters most of the time. I’m brewing 3 gallon batches, though. Not 5 gallons. I tend to buy Wyeast more often, but that’s personal preference. Nothing wrong with White Labs.

Wyeast uses an activator. Their packaging is known as a “smack pack”. It has yeast inside along with a seperate small package of wort that you activate by smacking the pack to break open the little pack of wort so the yeast can get at it. I think White Labs puts more cells in their package, with no activator. After activating the Wyeast pack, it takes a couple days or more to grow up the cells.

There are several new players I’m not familar with such as Omega that offer large packs of liquid yeast too. And many here swear by dry yeast these days as it has come a long way.

You can find yeast comparison charts online such as mr. malty that give equivalent strains, at least between White Labs and Wyeast. I don’t know of one yet that includes the new players.

 

[VikeMan]

After activating the Wyeast pack, it takes a couple days or more to grow up the cells.

There's not significant cell growth after breaking the smack pack's internal pouch. There's just enough sugars to get the yeast eating (and not enough for much (if any) propagation), so that the pack swells to prove there are live yeast.

Think about it this way... how much yeast growth would you get if you made a normal starter with a few milliliters of wort?

 

[A1sportsdad]

Totally agree here, no need to spend much money. I just use a 1/2 gal or 1 gal growler with an airlock fitted and no stir plate. Just give it a swirl every now and again. My 1.07x fermentations start within an hour and finish with 80%+ apparent attenuation with a healthy WLP007 pitch.

Don’t really want an airlock on a starter. When the yeast is going through this phase it needs as much oxygen as possible. Use a sponge stopper or foil I stead. Save the airlock for your actual fermentation.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Don’t really want an airlock on a starter. When the yeast is going through this phase it needs as much oxygen as possible. Use a sponge stopper or foil I stead. Save the airlock for your actual fermentation.

Without a stir plate I don't think much O2 would be getting down into a starter that is off-gassing CO2, especially covered with foil. The starter is well aerated to begin with and low gravity resulting in at least 6 times more yeast by volume than I start with. I have done this with ales up to 1.117 with no off flavors and the expected ester profile present. Probably just another case of what is recommended versus what actually works in practice.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Without a stir plate I don't think much O2 would be getting down into a starter that is off-gassing CO2, especially covered with foil. The starter is well aerated to begin with and low gravity resulting in at least 6 times more yeast by volume than I start with. I have done this with ales up to 1.117 with no off flavors and the expected ester profile present. Probably just another case of what is recommended versus what actually works in practice.

If it works for you, great, but the goal is to increase the release of the CO2 being produced and increase the suspension of oxygen in the wort. More oxygen means better health for your yeast, and a greater number in your starter. From that prospective, you want to allow gasses to be able to pass from the flask or growler, whatever you use, to be replaced by new air from outside that will have more oxygen in it to help keep the yeast supplied. The foam stopper or foil will allow some fresh air to move in. Granted, I'm not sure how much dilution of the gases in the flask really happens, but it will definitely be a little more than with an airlock in place.

 

[MusicLife]

So another question about the starter. If i want to brew on say Sunday. Could i make the starter on Friday and just pitch it straight off the stir plate on Sunday?

Also with 1 pack of white labs yeast would a 2L starter be required? I used the calculator but when searching through old posts I saw a lot of 1L starters being used.

 

[VikeMan]

So another question about the starter. If i want to brew on say Sunday. Could i make the starter on Friday and just pitch it straight off the stir plate on Sunday?

Personally, I cold crash and decant. Unless "x" percent of non temperature controlled, oxidized, pale DME beer is part of your main recipe, I'd recommend doing the same. OTOH, lots of people do pitch the whole spent starter.

Also with 1 pack of white labs yeast would a 2L starter be required? I used the calculator but when searching through old posts I saw a lot of 1L starters being used.

I would trust the calculator. It is targeting whatever pitch rate you tell it to (or some tried and true default rate). Advice to "just do a 1L starter" ignores estimated initial cell count, batch size, and gravity. There's no logic behind it.

 

[MusicLife]

Cool thanks. I was hoping to brew this weekend but on that recommendation i might not be... My starter kit doesn't get here until tonight,was hoping i could just dump it lol.

 

[flyfishorbrew]

What are you making? If you were making something pretty robust in flavor I'd say you could get away with dumping your whole starter. Otherwise I wouldn't, and wouldn't recommend it generally, but I also know it sucks to lose a brew day. You could also just pitch something dry this go-round and plan your next one a bit in advance.

Also, depending when you get the starter going and what time you plan to brew Sunday...I've began a starter on a Friday evening, run it on the plate through Sunday morning, cold crashed it so I could decant, brewed Sunday evening, works fine. If that works for your schedule.

 

[MusicLife]

I have a brown or a Belgian strong. Havent decided which i want to do first lol

 

[Nate R]

So another question about the starter. If i want to brew on say Sunday. Could i make the starter on Friday and just pitch it straight off the stir plate on Sunday?

Also with 1 pack of white labs yeast would a 2L starter be required? I used the calculator but when searching through old posts I saw a lot of 1L starters being used.

This is the down side to making starters... you need 24 to 48 hours to propogate it, then if you want it to fully seperate, another 24+ hours in the fridge.

I would suggest you propogate your yeast a few days ahead of time... if your yeast sits in the fridge for a few extra days before you pitch it is fine. I do this- i overbuild (using a 5L flask) and then split into sanitized mason jars with plastic lids (screwed on, but not tight).
Then i remove the jar for a bit before i pitch it.

 

[BrewZer]

yeah i think my biggest issue was not doing the starter. I think ill take a trip to the LHBS to get the stuff needed. They actually have the flasks for cheaper than amazon lol.

Watch out for the cheaper flasks -- the glass is thinner and may have bubbles. BTDT

 

[Nate R]

Watch out for the cheaper flasks -- the glass is thinner and may have bubbles. BTDT

Yeah... you know what tho? I bout a Pyrex Brand 2L for twice a cheapo... but it does not hold 2L PLUS head space like El Cheapo brands! So with a Brand Name flask, I can only make 1.5: in my 2L flask.

Since I use canned wort (i know, i know... lazy!) i never heat it. BUT- for my El Cheapo 5L, I always carry from the bottom when it is filled.


Edit: Dang it- @BrewZer ... I just noticed your avatar. I am NOT trying to talk smack against flasks! Especially if you are connected in the Flask world! My apologies, and I will defer to any opinion you have!