White labs question

[MusicLife]

So most of the brews I've done recently have been my LHBS recipes and they use white labs yeast.

The only thing that has been very odd is I've had very slow/sluggish fermentations. I did a porter a on Saturday and pitched at the called temp and i got no activity until late Sunday, which was maybe a bubble every 20 to 30 seconds and it was done that night, not going at all this morning. This has been the common pattern for all the brews.

Back before I left the hobby I used dry yeast and fermentation was always very active and apparent. So i guess this is what brings up the question of if its just a white labs thing or is there something im missing

 

[Conehead]

Did you make a yeast starter?

 

[MusicLife]

I did not. That is one thing i haven't tried yet. I had good luck not doing one before but not sure its possible with dry yeast, im talking from no knowledge here

 

[Mtrhdltd]

What yeast and what are you using as a fermenter? WLP001 can be very dramatic at times.

 

[MusicLife]

What yeast and what are you using as a fermenter? WLP001 can be very dramatic at times.

WLP005 and a plastic bucket for this one.

 

[Mtrhdltd]

The bucket is why you are not seeing bubbles. It's almost impossible to have a good seal. Relax and ignore the airlock. After 2 weeks check gravity.

 

[MusicLife]

The bucket is why you are not seeing bubbles. It's almost impossible to have a good seal. Relax and ignore the airlock. After 2 weeks check gravity.

Ah i didnt know that. I had similar scenarios with the glass carboy but was also different style of beer.

Thank you!

 

[Nate R]

I agree with the above... but also did you check how old your white labs packet was? Liquid yeast does not have the shelf life dry yeast does... a certain amount of cells will die every month.
FWIW... i prefer Imeprial yeasts as they are twice as many 'starting' cells as White Labs, so you supposedly get a larger starting cell count.
Also- i do not like how White Labs no longer gives an easy Manufacture Date right on the front of the package. Imperial (and most other brands) do- so you easily know how many months old your batch is.
IMO if you are using liquid and want a solid fermentation, starters are a must. Plus you can over-build and save some for next batch!
(So, you know... this hobby... just a few bucks more for a yeast stater kit!)

 

[MusicLife]

I agree with the above... but also did you check how old your white labs packet was? Liquid yeast does not have the shelf life dry yeast does... a certain amount of cells will die every month.
FWIW... i prefer Imeprial yeasts as they are twice as many 'starting' cells as White Labs, so you supposedly get a larger starting cell count.
Also- i do not like how White Labs no longer gives an easy Manufacture Date right on the front of the package. Imperial (and most other brands) do- so you easily know how many months old your batch is.
IMO if you are using liquid and want a solid fermentation, starters are a must. Plus you can over-build and save some for next batch!
(So, you know... this hobby... just a few bucks more for a yeast stater kit!)

Yeah it was within the date listed. Being that this isnt the first concern I will definitely ask if there sre other yeast brands available. The recipes I've been getting all have called for white labs, im sure if they have others it can be substituted. I will also look into the starters going forward... i told my wife equipment purchases were done for a bit.. guess not haha

 

[jdauria]

One pack of White Labs yeast, is not enough yeast cells really to ferment 5 gallons of beer. Will it ferment, sure, but lag time is slow and you may not ferment fully. A 5 gallon batch of 1.050 ale needs a minimum of 190 billion cells (at the lowest ale pitch rate on Brewer's Friend). A super fresh pack only has 100-110 billion. The higher the OG, the more you need.

White Labs lists a yeast lot number of their packages, if you go to https://yeastman.com/info and enter the lot number and then select homebrew, it will come up with a report. Under lot result, it will list a number for cell concentration...that is billion cells per mL. For example, it will say something like 2.4...since there are 40 ml in a Purepitch pack, you would multiply the number by 40, in this case 2.4...x 40 = 96 billion cells. So even if using a pack a day after it was tested...you would still be 104 billion cells short if you beer was a 1.050 og beer. If the yeast is an older vial of White Labs instead of pure pack, you multiply by 35 instead.

So normally you would take the date on the report, then go to a yeast calculator online, put in your estimated OG, your batch size and the date of the yeast (From the report website above)....and then the yeast calculator tells you how many cells you have and how many you need, and then if you did a starter, how big of a starter. However, White Labs says their Pure Packs have a longer viability date then previously though. Upholding Innovation & Quality: The PurePitch® Shelf Life | White Labs So even at 6 months old, they say their packs are 71% viable, but a yeast calculator would most likely tell you zero. So you then have to punch in the amount of cells based on viability in the second link I list. So for example, say the example pack I used above had 96 billion cells on the day it was tested in the lab, let's use October 1st as that test date. according to White labs, at three months the pack is 90.26% viable , so that leaves you with only 86.65 billion cells...now putting your over 100 billion short of what your minimum pitch should be.

Seems like a lot of detail, but it's really not...moral of the story is the higher the gravity, the more yeast packs your need to buy if not making starters. A properly pitched ale with show activity by the 12 hour mark and and easily be fully fermented in 4-5 days.

 

[MusicLife]

Hmm the gravity was higher. So would it be worth buying another pack and throwing it in there or has that ship sailed?

 

[h22lude]

The bucket is why you are not seeing bubbles. It's almost impossible to have a good seal. Relax and ignore the airlock. After 2 weeks check gravity.

I've never once had an issue with buckets sealing. The lids have gaskets. I don't think this is the issue.

 

[Mtrhdltd]

I've never once had an issue with buckets sealing. The lids have gaskets. I don't think this is the issue.

Really? I have not had a good seal on 3 different types of buckets, none have had seals in the lid. There are probably thousands of posts on here that agree with me that bucket fermenters don't seal well. There may be other issues here as well. Air lock bubbles are a horrible way to measure fermentation anyway. Has gravity been checked? That's the only real way to monitor fermentation.

 

[MusicLife]

I was gonna wait at least 2 weeks before measuring, or if its possible to add more yeast i may check it before buying more.

 

[h22lude]

Really? I have not had a good seal on 3 different types of buckets, none have had seals in the lid. There are probably thousands of posts on here that agree with me that bucket fermenters don't seal well. There may be other issues here as well. Air lock bubbles are a horrible way to measure fermentation anyway. Has gravity been checked? That's the only real way to monitor fermentation.

Prior to buying a SS Brewtech Brew Bucket, I used many different plastic buckets for years. Only once did I have a seal issue but that was my fault. They all sealed fine and airlocks always bubbled. Do your lids have gaskets?

 

[Nate R]

Yeah it was within the date listed. Being that this isnt the first concern I will definitely ask if there sre other yeast brands available. The recipes I've been getting all have called for white labs, im sure if they have others it can be substituted. I will also look into the starters going forward... i told my wife equipment purchases were done for a bit.. guess not haha

Another couple a bucks for this hobby... lol
Here is some used gear here for $50 shipped- seems like a good deal to me!
I am planning on dry yeast for my next batches because of all the extra planning liquid yeast brings!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/dual-body-regulator-stir-plate-and-2000-ml-flask.687704/

 

[MusicLife]

Another couple a bucks for this hobby... lol
Here is some used gear here for $50 shipped- seems like a good deal to me!
I am planning on dry yeast for my next batches because of all the extra planning liquid yeast brings!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/dual-body-regulator-stir-plate-and-2000-ml-flask.687704/

Awesome thanks! 50 does sound like a good deal

 

[Nate R]

Awesome thanks! 50 does sound like a good deal

Of course... once you start on 2L sizes, you'll soon want a 5L to over-build your next starters... which means a larger flask and a larger stir-plate.... Ugh. This dog-gone hobby! Lol.
Yeah- $50 shipped is a great deal IF it arrives un-broken!

 

[A1sportsdad]

I use White Labs all the time. It’s my preferred yeast. I almost always do a starter and if it’s a big beer I usually end up pitching a second one in the fermenter with the starter. I have always had very good and complete fermentations.

 

[tld6008]

There is no way I would use liquid yeast without proofing it by making a starter as well as building it up. I have bought, more than once, yeast by mail order that has been in date but Dead on Arrival. And many times with Wyeast the smack pack capsule has been broken although the yeast was good but without that feature working you don't know.

 

[MusicLife]

yeah i think my biggest issue was not doing the starter. I think ill take a trip to the LHBS to get the stuff needed. They actually have the flasks for cheaper than amazon lol.

 

[tld6008]

You can actually make a starter without a flask and stir plate, Shaken yeast starters

 

[MusicLife]

yeah the dude at my store said just to get a mason jar and just swish it around every time i walk by it for a day. I figured it would be a little easier with the flask due to its shape, and since i don't have a mason jar id have to buy something anyways

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

You can actually make a starter without a flask and stir plate, Shaken yeast starters

Totally agree here, no need to spend much money. I just use a 1/2 gal or 1 gal growler with an airlock fitted and no stir plate. Just give it a swirl every now and again. My 1.07x fermentations start within an hour and finish with 80%+ apparent attenuation with a healthy WLP007 pitch.

 

[Pappers_]

The bucket is why you are not seeing bubbles. It's almost impossible to have a good seal. Relax and ignore the airlock. After 2 weeks check gravity.

I've never once had an issue with buckets sealing. The lids have gaskets. I don't think this is the issue.

Really? I have not had a good seal on 3 different types of buckets, none have had seals in the lid. There are probably thousands of posts on here that agree with me that bucket fermenters don't seal well. There may be other issues here as well. Air lock bubbles are a horrible way to measure fermentation anyway. Has gravity been checked? That's the only real way to monitor fermentation.

I've had buckets that didn't seal well, also. In any case, even with carboys or whatever fermentation vessels you use, the air lock isn't a good way to monitor fermentation progress, as you say @Mtrhdltd

The lag time between pitching and visible fermentation activity is probably being taken up by the yeast multiplying - they're active, you just aren't seeing it - given the likely underpitching as others have suggested. Not a big deal. If you don't want to make a starter, nothing wrong with pitching multiple packs of wet yeast. The potential downside of underpitching is underattenuation and off-flavors from compounds produced by the yeast - like higher fruity esters or spicy phenols than you were looking for. Usually it doesn't ruin your beer, just makes it different than perhaps what you were looking for.

 

[flyfishorbrew]

As a frequent user of White Labs yeast bought from my LHBS, here's my experience going from pitching straight from the packet to using starters, FWIW. As mentioned by others, a single packet of WL yeast is going to be under pitched for most beers. Even if it's a very fresh packet and technically enough cells for a lower gravity beer it's going to get off to a sluggish start and probably not fully attenuate. I have pitched two packets in a pinch and had largely the same results.

I started doing shaken yeast starters with that canned wort stuff and a 2 liter flask. That absolutely helped. Mainly I noticed reduced lag time and better attenuation. Eventually I purchased one of the cheaper stir plates off Amazon and started using the Starter function on Beersmith. As mentioned by another poster, I look up the batch date on Yeastman and plug everything in on the Starter tab (my yeast is usually about 3 months old or what Beersmith rates as around 70-75% viable) and use DME. My regular routine is 36 hours on the stir plate, overnight cold crash, stick it in the ferm chamber set at the temp I'm going to start fermentation on the morning of the brew, then decant right before pitching, stir it up, and pitch (hopefully without dropping my stir bar in the bucket ). I see activity usually within 6 hours and I always hit my projected FG (actually, I often overshoot, which is a whole new problem).

Basically at this point, if I didn't have time to build up a proper starter, I would just pick dry yeast over liquid. My LHBS doesn't carry Imperial yeast which contains twice as many cells as WL, but even then, I suspect I'd want to use a starter to reduce lag time.

Finally, in my own experience, my bucket fermenters (with gaskets) hold a great seal. Airlock activity is absolutely not an indicator of your fermentation progress or gravity, but as long as you're confident of your seal, I think it is at least an indication of when your fermentation gets going and how vigorous it is.

 

[Pappers_]

Basically at this point, if I didn't have time to build up a proper starter, I would just pick dry yeast over liquid.

Me, too. Unless its a style where I want to use a liquid yeast and I don't get my butt in gear to make a starter, then I pitch multiple packs. But I do use quite a bit of dry yeast. On Saturday, I brewed a Foreign Export Stout and could have used any number of liquid English strains, but pitched a pack of Lallemand Windsor instead.

 

[flyfishorbrew]

Me, too. Unless its a style where I want to use a liquid yeast and I don't get my butt in gear to make a starter, then I pitch multiple packs.

Do you have good results with multiple packs, or do you think a single pack with a starter is ultimately better? I've pitched two packs on a few occasions and still not reached my projected FG.

 

[VikeMan]

yeah the dude at my store said just to get a mason jar and just swish it around every time i walk by it for a day.

Oh, man. That bring back memories. I'll bet your LHBS dude used to read brewing forums when Homebrew42 (better known as HB42) was active. I'm 99% certain he was the guy who first typed "swirl it every time you walk by," unless it was in Charlie P.'s book.

 

[jrgtr42]

You can actually make a starter without a flask and stir plate, Shaken yeast starters

yeah the dude at my store said just to get a mason jar and just swish it around every time i walk by it for a day. I figured it would be a little easier with the flask due to its shape, and since i don't have a mason jar id have to buy something anyways

Totally agree here, no need to spend much money. I just use a 1/2 gal or 1 gal growler with an airlock fitted and no stir plate. Just give it a swirl every now and again. My 1.07x fermentations start within an hour and finish with 80%+ apparent attenuation with a healthy WLP007 pitch.

That'salmost exactly what I do. I don't have a flask and stir plate, so I make my starters into an old growler (clean and sanitized, of course,) and keep it under my kitchen sink. It's warm and dark under there. I'll give it a swirl every couple hours when I walk by and think of it. Not a huge deal if you miss a couple swirls, I go by the RDWHAHB theories.
Depending on my timing, I'll make the starter either the day before brew day, pitching at full (or near full) krausen, or I make it a few days before, cold crashing and decanting before pitching.
WHile stir plates and such are easier, and may even give better results, I have had no issues with my way, with beers up to 1.090 SG.

 

[Mad Hornet]

I was surprised to see this. I pitched a White Labs Kolsch yeast this Saturday night, no starter, 6.5 gallon batch and it was visibly active in less than 24 hours and by yesterday was going completely ape **** - 120 bubbles per minute through a 1/2 blow off tube. Going even more crazy this morning. I have two thoughts about your situation.

1. What temp did you store the pack of yeast after you brought it home from LHBS?
2. Are you getting enough aeration in that wort?

 

[MusicLife]

I was surprised to see this. I pitched a White Labs Kolsch yeast this Saturday night, no starter, 6.5 gallon batch and it was visibly active in less than 24 hours and by yesterday was going completely ape **** - 120 bubbles per minute through a 1/2 blow off tube. Going even more crazy this morning. I have two thoughts about your situation.

1. What temp did you store the pack of yeast after you brought it home from LHBS?
2. Are you getting enough aeration in that wort?

I stuck it in the fridge
And i shook the living sht out of the bucket before hand lol, im a relatively big dude and i was sweating after

 

[Mad Hornet]

I know at my house I have to pay attention to where i put stuff in the fridge. Got a supposedly smart refrigerator set for 37 degrees. But I noticed two weeks ago I had a jar of stewed tomatoes that froze!

But I also pulled it out about 9 hours before pitching and let it come up to room temp.

 

[VikeMan]

And i shook the living sht out of the bucket before hand lol, im a relatively big dude and i was sweating after

You could be The Hulk, but you'd still hit the same "shaking" dissolved O2 limit. Basically, when you reach a certain point, the O2 will be coming out of solution as fast as it's going in.

 

[h22lude]

I've had buckets that didn't seal well, also. In any case, even with carboys or whatever fermentation vessels you use, the air lock isn't a good way to monitor fermentation progress, as you say @Mtrhdltd

The lag time between pitching and visible fermentation activity is probably being taken up by the yeast multiplying - they're active, you just aren't seeing it - given the likely underpitching as others have suggested. Not a big deal. If you don't want to make a starter, nothing wrong with pitching multiple packs of wet yeast. The potential downside of underpitching is underattenuation and off-flavors from compounds produced by the yeast - like higher fruity esters or spicy phenols than you were looking for. Usually it doesn't ruin your beer, just makes it different than perhaps what you were looking for.

I'd say airlocks aren't a good way to tell if it is done fermenting but can used to at least see if it has started. If you don't see bubbles after 6 hours, you most likely underpitched or underaerated.

 

[MusicLife]

You could be The Hulk, but you'd still hit the same "shaking" dissolved O2 limit. Basically, when you reach a certain point, the O2 will be coming out of solution as fast as it's going in.

Yeah but its all I have. Its worked in the past lol.

 

[VikeMan]

Yeah but its all I have. Its worked in the past lol.

I think you mentioned this was a higher gravity wort. Higher gravity worts need more O2, because they need more yeast cell growth. The O2 allows them to build cell wall material. Without that, the cells are more limited in the number of times they can divide.

Also, there's a sort of double whammy, because it's actually harder to dissolve O2 in higher gravity wort.

 

[MusicLife]

I think you mentioned this was a higher gravity wort. Higher gravity worts need more O2, because they need more yeast cell growth. The O2 allows them to build cell wall material. Without that, the cells are more limited in the number of times they can divide.

Also, there's a sort of double whammy, because it's actually harder to dissolve O2 in higher gravity wort.

Slightly higher. Ended up being 1.060 which is higher than most ive brewed... not sure if it classifies as high tho.

What other ways can O2 be added?

 

[Pappers_]

What other ways can O2 be added?

I use a wand that screws onto an O2 cannister that you get at the hardware store. I bought mine from Williams Brewing a few years ago, they are available at pretty much every homebrew store. You sanitize it and after you've transferred to your fermentation vessel, you stick the wand into the bottom of the fermenter and turn on the O2 for a minute or two. Mine does not have a gauged regulator, so its kind of by guess LOL.

 

[Pappers_]

Do you have good results with multiple packs, or do you think a single pack with a starter is ultimately better? I've pitched two packs on a few occasions and still not reached my projected FG.

I've pitched up to four packs LOL, expensive but that's the price I paid for being lazy. I use a pitching calculator, to see what I need and generally follow whatever it says. I've used both Beersmith and Mr. Malty's calculators