Whirlpooling and chilling

[vanilla_prison]

I can’t seem to find a straight answer for my question via googling. There seems to be much debate on whirlpooling with or without cooling. For context, I brew with an Anvil Foundry 10.5 and I have a Riptide pump with a 21” swirly arm. So doing whirlpools is an easy task. My question is about when exactly to whirlpool or cool, considering I’m going for trub reduction in the fermenter? I don’t do any whirlpool hop additions, so this is specifically about wanting beer as clear as possible. So should I:

1) Run wort through CFC while doing whirlpool, rest, then transfer to fermenter
2) Whirlpool, rest, then run through CFC into fermenter
3) Recirculate through CFC back into kettle until cool, then whirlpool, rest, and transfer

Seems like a dumb question, but beforehand I used an immersion chiller and whirlpooled by hand simply to cool faster before transfer. So with my new pump, CFC, and swirly arm a different world is opened up. Thanks!

 

[lumpher]

The way I see it, the best time to whirpool (and how I do it with an IC) is to chill it down to about 165, then whirlpool, then finish chilling for a hoppy beer. For not so hoppy, for convenience I'll whirlpool, then chill. WIth a CFC, if chilling all the way in 1 pass, I'd whirlpool first, then chill. The more you expose it below 160, especially mixing it in really good, the bigger chance of contamination. Years ago I was chilling an IPA, then dozed off. It must have picked up a REALLY virulent wild yeast, since 3 hours later it was cool, but fermenting so hard it looked like it was boiling hard, and I hadn't even added yeast yet. Try not to expose the beer too long once down to about 160.

 

[sibelman]

There's no definitive answer to this question.
Given you're not adding hops post-boil, then for simplicity and sanitation I'd recommend chilling during transfer to fermenter, i.e. after whirlpool.

chance of contamination

If chilling during whirlpool, it's best to keep the kettle covered to reduce risk from airborne contaminants.

 

[whoaru99]

I would seem like if you could whirlpool and cool in effectively one operation, then drain to fermenter, that would be the way to go.

That said, it's quite possible there's more to it than that.

 

[passedpawn]

I start the whirlpool and the IC at the same time. It spins for about 5 minutes, then I kick off the whirlpool (no wort movement at all) and chill for another 20 minutes-ish, down as far as my chilling water will take it. What is left is pretty clear.

I'm not overly concerned with clear wort, but as long as I'm chilling anyway I'll take it. I also use whirlflock in the boil, and a hop spider so I can remove the hops when I desire (i.e., during the whirlpool).

 

[Jag75]

If your not doing a whirlpool for hop additions temp isn't an issue . I'd run the wort through the pump and cfc to whirlpool at flame out . Running hot wort through the pump and cfc will sanitize them . After a few minutes then slow the flow to cool your wort, then transfer once the desired temp is reached. Like passedpawn said whirfloc helps as well. It won't take long to whirlpool and cool 10 gallons .

 

[Red over White]

I can’t seem to find a straight answer for my question via googling. There seems to be much debate on whirlpooling with or without cooling. For context, I brew with an Anvil Foundry 10.5 and I have a Riptide pump with a 21” swirly arm. So doing whirlpools is an easy task. My question is about when exactly to whirlpool or cool, considering I’m going for trub reduction in the fermenter? I don’t do any whirlpool hop additions, so this is specifically about wanting beer as clear as possible. So should I:

1) Run wort through CFC while doing whirlpool, rest, then transfer to fermenter
2) Whirlpool, rest, then run through CFC into fermenter
3) Recirculate through CFC back into kettle until cool, then whirlpool, rest, and transfer

Seems like a dumb question, but beforehand I used an immersion chiller and whirlpooled by hand simply to cool faster before transfer. So with my new pump, CFC, and swirly arm a different world is opened up. Thanks!

1 & some of 3 for me

I built my system to cool and whirlpool at the same time with the lid on, then rest in the kettle for 45 minutes after chilling and runoff by gravity to the fermenter. The first cloudy 2-3 quarts I put in beer pitchers, let settle in the fridge and freeze as vitality starters and for a hydrometer reading. The rest is gin clear going into the fermenters. I do run dual CFCs in parallel to separate whirlpool ports high and low for faster cooling with 13-16 gal boils.

When ground water is warm I recirc ice water only through the blichmann chilling coil in the lid to bring the wort to pitching temperature as it settles for 45 mins. This is effective and still allows the break to settle nicely while slowly cooling to pitch in a static state.

 

[youngdh]

I start the whirlpool and the IC at the same time. It spins for about 5 minutes, then I kick off the whirlpool (no wort movement at all) and chill for another 20 minutes-ish, down as far as my chilling water will take it. What is left is pretty clear.

I'm not overly concerned with clear wort, but as long as I'm chilling anyway I'll take it. I also use whirlflock in the boil, and a hop spider so I can remove the hops when I desire (i.e., during the whirlpool).

I can’t develop and effective whirlpool swirl with the swirly arm and create a trub cone with IC in my Anvil. The IC gets placed into the wort in last 10 minutes of my boil to sanitize it. I’m thinking I need to either forget trying to create a trub cone with the swirly arm or wait until I’m fully cooled, pull the IC, and then swirl again for the trub cone.

 

[scrap iron]

I say #3 to help keep break material in the BK before pumping to the FV.
If it's hard to get a trub cone you might try this.
My BK has a false bottom and I use a combo of leaf and pellet hops. I use an immersion chiller and when done chilling I pump the wort to a bottling bucket. Then set it in the fermentation fridge for an hour or more while I get the yeast and FV ready. The time in the fridge allows the trub and pellets that made into the bucket to settle out. Then I drain the clear wort off the junk into the FV. The wort is aerated as it drops from the bucket to the FV. I get clear wort and get rid of the pellets while aerating at the same time.

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

I would seem like if you could whirlpool and cool in effectively one operation, then drain to fermenter, that would be the way to go.

That said, it's quite possible there's more to it than that.

That's how I do it.

 

[vanilla_prison]

That's how I do it.

I feel like that’s what I’m leaning more towards. Cooling it while recirculating to the BK for whirlpool means all the cold break is kept out of the fermenter.

 

[hottpeper13]

When whirlpooling the only cone you get is a hop cone the trub always lays flat in my kettle. Just like a keg I get a hole in the trub where my pick up is (1/8" off bottom) , once the hole is made I get clear wort pumping into my FV. The small amount is said to be beneficial to the yeast. I chill thru the whirlpool until cold break ,then let settle(hence flat trub layer) and pump clear wort into Big Mouth,so no way to remove cold break if I chilled on the way.

 

[Jag75]

When whirlpooling the only cone you get is a hop cone the trub always lays flat in my kettle. Just like a keg I get a hole in the trub where my pick up is (1/8" off bottom) , once the hole is made I get clear wort pumping into my FV. The small amount is said to be beneficial to the yeast. I chill thru the whirlpool until cold break ,then let settle(hence flat trub layer) and pump clear wort into Big Mouth,so no way to remove cold break if I chilled on the way.

Even though the op isn't doing a wp hop addition , there is hop additions during the boil, so a cone isn't out of the question. I believe op is saying running the wp and chill at same time until coldbreak, then transferring to the fv.

 

[hottpeper13]

I read it as he's trying to cone the trub and I've never been able to do that.

 

[vanilla_prison]

Even though the op isn't doing a wp hop addition , there is hop additions during the boil, so a cone isn't out of the question. I believe op is saying running the wp and chill at same time until coldbreak, then transferring to the fv.

Yes, that’s what I’m referring to. Let the cold break happen inside the BK, then transfer and leave that all out of the fermenter.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

At flame out, I just stir my pot for 30-seconds, cover it and wait 20-minutes and end up with a nice cone every time. Then I run it through my chiller into the fermenter.

 

[Willy]

My usual whirlpool method:
1) add whirlfloc tablet 10 m left to boil
2) turn off heat, the boil is over
3) insert chiller copper coils (I don't wanna slurry things up when I put it in)
4) begin whirlpool - about 10-15 min. I think it needs to follow your toilet swirl direction, so Northern hemi - clockwise whirlpool.
5) left it sit for 15 min. Allowing hop cone to form.
6) run water to chiller.

I need to test when to put in the chiller coils - it might work better after whirlpool rest and a slow careful insertion.

 

[youngdh]

Chiller coils need to go into the last 10 min of boil to sanitize them unless you’ve had them soaking in a bucket of Star San.

 

[Willy]

Chiller coils need to go into the last 10 min of boil to sanitize them unless you’ve had them soaking in a bucket of Star San.

Soaked coils in star San in a bucket while brewing. Cheers

 

[sibelman]

needs to follow your toilet swirl direction

@Willy , your procedure makes sense. However, I've heard that the Coriolis force here on Earth is quite weak. If so, it would make almost no difference in whirlpooling.

I would try reversing my usual direction, but I can't easily do so, as the whirlpool widget I got from @Bobby_M won't really work for clockwise flow unless I'm being unusually idiotic.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Because I'm a cheap SOB, I reuse my yeast aggressively. I also firmly believe that the clarity of a beer is a vital telltale of its quality.* Suspended yeast and proteins obstruct a beer's flavor and only in rare circumstances do they add anything positive to a beer's flavor. Dry-hopping is not an excuse for murky beer. Sure an aggressively dry-hopped beer will never be gin clear, but it can certainly be clear.

To these ends, I've stubbornly held fast to my immersion chiller. It allows me to whirlpool at 170f for 40min, or very quickly crash to sub-pitching temps prior to running off my wort into the fermenter. Yes, there are faster ways to chill, but an IC coupled with a whirlpooling kettle is a rounding error slower than CFCs or CF chillers.

Moreover, if you use an IC, you can over-chill your wort, then allow it to rest for 30-40min prior to racking into the fermenter. This technique will dramatically cut down on the amount of trub you carry over into your fermenter, thereby increasing your yields to the keg (more beer, less trub), and increasing your density of yeast cells/trub in your subsequent pitches.

Once you've cut your whirlpool and allowed your trub to settle, you can then filter it prior to racking into the kettle. For this purpose, I use the Electric Brewery Hop Stopper 2.0. Yes, it does work with pellet hops, lots and lots of pellet hops--but you have to rack slowly. It's like lautering from your mash tun, you can't throw the ball valve wide open. I budget about 20-30mins for racking. In my estimation, that's a cheap price to pay for cleaner wort and more yeast-dense pitches.

But trub is good for yeast! It is, but you don't need 1/4gal of compact trub for yeast health. You'll still get all the trub you need and more with the Hop Stopper.

Moving away from chilling and looking more globally at the quest for clear beer: 1) you can't make clear beer without proper pH control, 2) Fly sparging is the biggest, cheapest, most effective filter in your entire brewery, 3) Using finings is not cheating--use them enthusiastically!, 4) Never, ever, ever, use a filter prior to kegging! They're horrible and they ruin beer.

There are other ways to skin this cat and I'm not knocking them. This, however, is what I've settled on after 30-years of brewing. I hope you found this useful.

*Obviously, style considerations come into play here. Nobody wants a clear Wit, Hefe, or NEIPA.

 

[Willy]

@Willy , your procedure makes sense. However, I've heard that the Coriolis force here on Earth is quite weak. If so, it would make almost no difference in whirlpooling.

I would try reversing my usual direction, but I can't easily do so, as the whirlpool widget I got from @Bobby_M won't really work for clockwise flow unless I'm being unusually idiotic.
View attachment 853583

I was kind of joking, re: Coriolis, but I have idea if there is an effect. I suspect you are right, if any it is minimal.

 

[DuncB]

I'm in the southern hemisphere and whirlpool anticlockwise.
Because the whirlpool hole is oriented this way.
Seems fine to me.

 

[Willy]

That's how I do it.

Me too. I put the IC in as my boil is completed. (Already star San treated). Turn off heat and run IC to 170 ... and begin whirlpool at 170 while continuing IC .

Run the whirlpool for 15 min. And letting it rest ... IC running the whole time.

Whirlfloc tab at 10 m left in boil helps too with clumping, & clearing the wort.

Gravity dump to fermenter passes thru a funnel with tight screen catching stray hops and malt particles often present at the beginning of transfer. If the screen gets too clumped, I quickly submerge in a bucket of star San which clears the filter screen. After about 30 sec... The debris is next to nothing but it is helpful to get rid of the chunks before fermenting.

Also do a gelatin dump for clarity (or biofine) for clarity as I am slowly crashing. Once I get to 48° or lower (on my way to 35 at 3-5 degree drop per day) I do the gelatin move (3/4 cup of water with 1 tsp of gelatin).

I like my beer clear as possible. And thanks to all the suggestions, reading stuff, videos etc... I am well on my way.