Which yeast is your favorite dry yeast for making mead?

[Miraculix]

Do you mean backweeting with honey specifically, or do you mean backsweetening with anything sweet is enough to bring back the honey flavor?

Sugar is a flavour enhancer, so anything with sugar should do the trick. Try it with a little sample in a glass and some ordinary sugar.

 

[NeverDie]

Sugar is a flavour enhancer, so anything with sugar should do the trick. Try it with a little sample in a glass and some ordinary sugar.

Thanks for the tip! I tried it just now with some ordinary table sugar, and, yes, it kinda sorta does bring back some of the honey flavor. Just not all of it. For sure it's better than the dry version, where the honey spent is pretty much wasted.

I think the next experiment would be to backsweeten with some Tupelo honey and see what that does. I imagine (and hope) that doing that will produce a stronger honey taste (because, how could it not?), but we'll see. For that I'll need to fire up the stir plate...

 

[NeverDie]

Thanks for the tip! I tried it just now with some ordinary table sugar, and, yes, it kinda sorta does bring back some of the honey flavor. Just not all of it. For sure it's better than the dry version, where the honey spent is pretty much wasted.

I think the next experiment would be to backsweeten with some Tupelo honey and see what that does. I imagine (and hope) that doing that will produce a stronger honey taste (because, how could it not?), but we'll see. For that I'll need to fire up the stir plate...

Reporting back: yup, tupelo worked better. Maybe a little too "in your face" though. I think Tasmanian leatherwood honey might be the way to go with this. I'll try that after the cyser finishes fermenting....

 

[NeverDie]

So, to recap on the Fresco yeast, it was able to ferment from OG 1.103 to SG 1.000 in just four days: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UameIZ6ks_67gMgiSO9XC1P1eYEtDXUQTnHbteS1s2o/edit?usp=sharing

I'm not sure whether the TILT can report values less than 1.000 or not, but the airlock is still quite busy.

 

[Maylar]

But I thought rph_guy likes to drink exotic pellicles, or did I (probably) misunderstand him?

He seems to have a taste for cow patties...

OK, you got me curious, so I went and tasted it. Actually, it tastes like dry cider. No perceptible honey flavor. And I guess the pellicle thing was just a false alarm, because now I don't see it anymore. Not sure what it was.

I figured as much. You had a very active ferment and virtually zero oxygen. Bacteria can't exist without oxygen.

Little honey flavor is typical of a cyser. You'll taste some apple and the acid from both for a while. Backsweetening with the same honey is common practice. Sometimes that means it gets too sweet. That's where oak or tannins come in. You sweeten till the honey is apparent but not oversweet, then oak for a couple months which reduces the perception of sweetness, then add a smidgen of honey again. It's an art.

How did your Fresco cyser turn out?

Checked SG today and it's right at 1/3rd sugar break. No more nutrients. Added some bentonite to help it clear later on. Brew room has been holding 59° which is perfect.

Started with this...

Hopefully I'll get 2 gallon jugs with no headspace when I rack it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

He seems to have a taste for cow patties...

No.

My mixed fermentations taste like a complex mix of fruit, sometimes with honey, leathery, earthy, smokey, or "horse blanket" notes.

Sounds like you had a bad experience with something wild, but that doesn't extrapolate to everyone else.

 

[NeverDie]

I went for a "tour" of the local meadery today, but it was a let down. First of all, there was no tour. The tour was just standing around asking one of the owners questions. Then the website had promised 30 to 40 different honey varietals to try, but what they had were just 12, and half of those were crystalized, so not really great for tasting. And then they didn't even have samples available for all of the meads they made, and of course the ones I wanted to try they didn't have. So, all in all, it was a disappointment.

One thing was clear though: they felt very constrained as to their cost of goods, and that limited what honeys they felt they could use to make mead. If they had their druthers, they'd use more expensive honey, but then the price point would be above what the market would be willing to pay for it. So, maybe this at least partially tends to explain why many/most commercial meads seem less good than what a homebrewer can do. They're aiming at mass market tastes and prices that the mass market deems appropriate for mead, which limits what they can offer.

 

[NeverDie]

I figured as much. You had a very active ferment and virtually zero oxygen. Bacteria can't exist without oxygen.

That's interesting. So no infections ever involve anaerobic bacteria then? I'm curious to know, because if that's the case, then with a vacuum chamber and a good vacuum pump, it would be easy enough to fully de-gass the oxygen out of the must in order to guarantee that there'd be no bacterial infection.

As it turns out, I have on order both an 8.4 gallon vacuum chamber and a good vacuum pump, so it's more than academic.

 

[Blacksmith1]

There are anaerobic bacteria. Ask anyone who owns a horse about thrush. The chances that you will get one that out lasts the so called lag phase of yeast propagation are slim since you need O2 to build the colony, which then out compeats the bacteria. Theoreticly

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ugh.

So no infections ever involve anaerobic bacteria then?

Yes there are anaerobic bacteria that can cause unwanted contamination.
Pediococcus, Megasphaera, Bacillus, Lactobacillus, et al.... and yeast will not "out-compete" them in the long run.
Plus there's plenty of facultative yeast that can contaminate.

A healthy pitch, nitrogen management, minimal oxygen, and sulfite after fermentation generally keep contaminants at bay. However, Brett can be a desirable trait in aged wine.

 

[NeverDie]

Just how low can FG go? TILT is reporting that the SG on the Fresco traditional mead fermentation is now 0.996.

 

[Maylar]

No.

My mixed fermentations taste like a complex mix of fruit, sometimes with honey, leathery, earthy, smokey, or "horse blanket" notes.

Sounds like you had a bad experience with something wild, but that doesn't extrapolate to everyone else.

That was meant to be a friendly poke at you, sir. And to reiterate my disdain for barnyard funk.

No disrespect intended.

 

[Maylar]

Yes there are anaerobic bacteria that can cause unwanted contamination.
Pediococcus, Megasphaera, Bacillus, Lactobacillus, et al.... and yeast will not "out-compete" them in the long run.
Plus there's plenty of facultative yeast that can contaminate.

How many of these are we as home brewers likely to encounter?

A healthy pitch, nitrogen management, minimal oxygen, and sulfite after fermentation generally keep contaminants at bay. However, Brett can be a desirable trait in aged wine.

In the vast majority of cases we see here, when something is growing in someone's brew there is also a lot of headspace. But you say that there are things that CAN grow even if we keep that to a minimum. How important is SO2 management in controlling that?

 

[Maylar]

Just how low can FG go? TILT is reporting that the SG on the Fresco traditional mead fermentation is now 0.996.

I think 0.996 is the lowest I've seen personally, but I hear of wine makers who report 0.992 sometimes.

 

[NeverDie]

That was meant to be a friendly poke at you, sir. And to reiterate my disdain for barnyard funk.

No disrespect intended.

Yes, that's what I assumed you meant.

You know, both of you can be right at the same time. Remember back in high school biology class where they had everyone in the class taste some specially selected chemicals, and some people thought they were disgusting and other people couldn't taste them at all? The point of the demo was that there are genetic factors which affect what some people can taste and others cannot. Not sure if that applies in this specific case, but maybe.

Closer to home, I think brussels sprouts taste unambiguously awful, but my wife perceives nothing wrong with them. I suspect it's this same genetic thing.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

How many of these are we as home brewers likely to encounter?

Pedio and lacto are very common, and the fact that there's organisms called Megasphaera cerevisiae and Pectinatus cerevisiiphilus gives a hint what their favourite "food" is. Bacillus species permeate the environment, but they don't generally grow well in finished beer. But there's lots more bacteria that can go in beer, and sometimes may be desired (lambics are microbiological zoos). This is a good review :
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.49

 

[NeverDie]

Pedio and lacto are very common, and the fact that there's organisms called Megasphaera cerevisiae and Pectinatus cerevisiiphilus gives a hint what their favourite "food" is. Bacillus species permeate the environment, but they don't generally grow well in finished beer. But there's lots more bacteria that can go in beer, and sometimes may be desired (lambics are microbiological zoos). This is a good review :
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.49

Thanks for the link. That's a well written article!

Not sure what it is about black cherry juice, but 3 out of 4 times I've tried fermenting it, a bacteria infection quickly soured it in less than 24 hours. Knudsen was the one brand that didn't spoil, and the others were cheaper brands. Coincidence? I even tried fermenting in the bottle it came in. All I did was add yeast and a bit of sugar, so unless those were somehow infected prior to adding them, I don't see how it happened.

I haven't had this problem with anything else. Based on that article, next time I try fermenting black cherry juice I'm tempted to artificially lower the pH from the get-go to see if that inhibits the bacteria.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That was meant to be a friendly poke at you, sir. And to reiterate my disdain for barnyard funk.

No disrespect intended.

All righty. Hard to tell with text.

How many of these are we as home brewers likely to encounter?

These organisms are fairly ubiquitous, so we're very likely to encounter them if not using pasteurized must and stringent sanitation practices.... Or oxygen management AND sulfite to suppress them.

In the vast majority of cases we see here, when something is growing in someone's brew there is also a lot of headspace. But you say that there are things that CAN grow even if we keep that to a minimum. How important is SO2 management in controlling that?

Many contaminants create a pellicle in the presence of oxygen (i.e. with large headspace). This is the most obvious sign of contamination, and causes panic, anxiety, and causes the person to dump it, research, and/or ask for help.
But what happens most of the time when people smell and taste the brew? It's completely fine or at least mostly fine. So if a pellicle hadn't formed, people would never have known about the contaminant (especially in wine; beer can overcarbonate or develop sourness, unlike wine). Therefore if someone follows proper oxygen and headspace practices the vast majority of contamination go unnoticed. Furthermore if an off-flavor is detected and there's not a pellicle, most people will simply ascribe it to an idiosyncrasy of the yeast they pitched or whatever other ingredients there are.
Sometimes the contamination is even beneficial. LAB decrease acidity and can contribute positively to mouthfeel and flavor.

On the other hand, oxygen does increase the flavor contribution and growth of some microbes like Acetobacter, Pichia, and molds.

Proper sulfite levels reduce or eliminate the threat of almost all contaminants. Unfortunately some strains (especially Brett) can be rather sulfite-tolerant. Sanitation and nitrogen management (avoiding excessive nutrient, combined with racking) certainly go a long way also.

there are genetic factors which affect what some people can taste and others cannot.

Certainly everyone's taste is different.
I happen to be what's called a supertaster and that affects how I perceive certain things like tannins and alpha acids. Maybe you are too; who knows?

I'm OK will people not liking or even appreciating "funk", but saying it tastes like feces is something else.
Fecal aroma & flavor come from enteric bacteria (and their production of butyric acid, among other things). A properly managed and conditioned wild fermentation should not have any of that. An unintentional contamination is more likely to cause such a flavor.

but 3 out of 4 times I've tried fermenting it, a bacteria infection quickly soured it in less than 24 hours.

Did you measure TA before and after? Otherwise it didn't happen.
Cherry juice, and the juice of most fruits are full of acid. Fermentation increases the perception of the acidity by removing the sugar. Perhaps the cheaper brands used more acidic (less ripe?) cherries.
Lactic acid bacteria generally make wine LESS sour through malolactic fermentation (and they can sometimes metabolize other acids to some extent).
71b may be a good yeast to try since it metabolizes ~20% of the acid in fruit juice.

I'm tempted to artificially lower the pH from the get-go to see if that inhibits the bacteria.

I can't imagine a scenario where adding acid would reduce acidity.

Hope this all makes sense!

Edit fixed autoincorrect errors

 

[NeverDie]

Did you measure TA before and after? Otherwise it didn't happen.

I don't have that capability. Which test kit would you recommend? What would it tell you that you need to know that's relevant to this?

I do have a digital pH meter though. But that's not what you're asking.

 

[NeverDie]

I can't imagine a scenario where adding acid would reduce acidity.

By lowering pH, I meant reducing the pH number. Adding acid reduces the pH number.

Is there a more elegant way to say it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't have that capability. Which test kit would you recommend? What would it tell you that you need to know that's relevant to this?

Do you have a pH meter?

TA (titratable acidity) is the amount of acid, so measuring it would tell you how much it changed.

 

[NeverDie]

Do you have a pH meter?

Yes. Would that suffice? Or do you need the TA number?

 

[RPh_Guy]

All you need is some sodium hydroxide (e.g. 0.1N solution, or powder if you feel like mixing it yourself) and something to measure small amounts of liquid like a small syringe or pipette. The more precisely you measure the liquid volumes, the more precise measurement you'll get.

Test kits are cheap but you can use your meter instead of the indicator solution if you want. Phenolphthalein has a good shelf life though, so it'll last and is easier to use.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellar-science-acid-test-kit.html

Yeast fermentation may change the pH, so before and after pH would not be very useful to see whether significant acid was produced.

By lowering pH, I meant reducing the pH number. Adding acid reduces the pH number.

Is there a more elegant way to say it?

You said it correctly. I meant to say that adding acid (lowering pH, increasing acidity), cannot lower the ultimate acidity of the wine -- whether or not bacteria are involved.

Cheers

 

[bob1852]

Just an FYI that pH, titrateable acidity (TA), and total acidity are 3 different measurements and they don't mean the same thing...

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's not feasible to measure total acidity, so we don't really discuss acidity in terms of total acidity (unless someone is mistakenly using the terms interchangeably).

By measuring titratable acidity, we're hoping to approximate total acidity. (It's used as a surrogate measurement.)

 

[NeverDie]

Status update
M31 finally made it to its second sugar break and is now under airlock

Of all the yeasts that are currently under test, the ones that have so far flocculated the best (pretty much to clear) are:

1. 1388
2. Wyeast Sweet Mead
3. Omega Voss Kveik
4. 71B
5. D47

 

[bob1852]

It's not feasible to measure total acidity, so we don't really discuss acidity in terms of total acidity (unless someone is mistakenly using the terms interchangeably).

Like this person?

http://www.meaderylab.com/article/527

 

[NeverDie]

All you need is some sodium hydroxide (e.g. 0.1N solution, or powder if you feel like mixing it yourself) and something to measure small amounts of liquid like a small syringe or pipette. The more precisely you measure the liquid volumes, the more precise measurement you'll get.

Test kits are cheap but you can use your meter instead of the indicator solution if you want. Phenolphthalein has a good shelf life though, so it'll last and is easier to use.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellar-science-acid-test-kit.html

Thanks! I just now ordered this acid test kit from Amazon, which looks to be about the same:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064OFUCY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How would I use my meter instead of the indicator solution? What ph is the tipping point? With cherry juice, with its dark color, it may be a bit tricky to notice when the indicator solution changes.

Ultimately I want to make Viking Blood mead (the one that uses cherry juice), which is why I'm practicing with what I had thought would simpler cherry juice ferments first.

 

[bob1852]

Thanks! I just now ordered this acid test kit from Amazon, which looks to be about the same:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064OFUCY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How would I use my meter instead of the indicator solution? What ph is the tipping point? With cherry juice, with its dark color, it may be a bit tricky to notice when the indicator solution changes.

Ultimately I want to make Viking Blood mead (the one that uses cherry juice), which is why I'm practicing with what I had thought would simpler cherry juice ferments first.

Those kits with phenolphthalein aren't very accurate with mead for a variety of reasons (measurement drift, color of mead causing issues reading accurately, certain chemistry differences between mead and wine that skew measurement)....

Actual titration is more accurate, but the set up can be pricey and, in my opinion, the results aren't that important to me.

I adjust TA in the finished product by taste.....using bench trials and tartaric (or malic) acid.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Certainly everyone's taste is different.
I happen to be what's called a supertaster and that affects how I perceive certain things like tannins and alpha acids. Maybe you are too; who knows?

Supertasting is not so much a generic thing as specific to individual tastes - a friend seems to be particularly sensitive to butyrate so she finds baby vomit in all sorts of beers, even award-winning non-sour, "clean" beers. One of the most famous examples of a genetic link to a specific taste is the one in six people who taste coriander as soapy, which has been linked to a mutation in a gene called OR6A2. Coriander is rich in the same terpenols as some hops, particularly Centennial which some people perceive as soapy, I suspect it's linked.

Fecal aroma & flavor come from enteric bacteria (and their production of butyric acid, among other things). A properly managed and conditioned wild fermentation should not have any of that.

As above, people have variable sensitivity to and different perceptions of these things, so you can't make statements that are too definitive about this stuff. But it's certainly true that such flavours are not confined to bacteria. Some Bretts contribute a flavour which is politely called "farmyard" that is much sought after in some expensive wines. It's different to raw sewage, more like when it's matured a little, but some people might refer to it as faecal.