Which water agents are neccessary

[JCasey1992]

Hi all!

I am just starting to try to get a grasp of water chemistry so I've been looking a lot through the forum to get some ideas of what it's all about. However, one question that I was unable to find an answer on was exactly what water agents are necessary to have in your inventory. Can anybody tell me this? I currently have some gypsum, calcium chloride, 5.2 stabilizer and Epsom salt. Is there anything else I should pick up? Maybe Phosphoric acid? Calcium Carbonate? etc. Any feedback is appreciated.

Also, if you need to see a full water report, I'll be able to provide it in a few days as I will be shipping it today.

Thank you,
Casey

 

[rpolzin25]

The 5.2 stabilizer is probably unnecessary. I think there was a thread somewhere on here talking about how it really doesn't work. I think your pretty good w/ gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom salt. If you have some baking soda in your pantry you might need that once in awhile but so far those are the only water salts I have used although I use distilled water and plan on making my own RO water soon so I don't have to buy 8-10 jugs of water everytime I want to brew.

 

[Wagon_6]

You'll need an acid on hand, either lactic or phosphoric. And I would add campden tablets.

As a reference, i use gypsum, calcium chloride (liquid), phosphoric acid, and campden.

 

[IslandLizard]

Depends on the water you have, but definitely gypsum, calcium chloride, and Epsom salt are the most common. Baking soda occasionally.

You definitely need an acid, like phosphoric acid or lactic acid, or use sour maltz. Depending on how much you brew, your LHBS typically sells lactic acid in 88% and phosphoric in a paltry 10%. Both are small bottles, but the lactic gets you more mileage. Not sure why they don't sell phosphoric in higher concentrations, like 85%, which is a commercial standard.

Duda Diesel sells phosphoric acid in quarts, gallons, etc, and is fairly priced, with shipping. I bought a gallon (85%) and split some with a few friends at a group grain buy. I still have about half of it and will last a lifetime. Dilute some to a working solution of say 40% or 20%, easier to measure. Occasionally I use a few drops to keep the Starsan under pH 3.

Campden for removing chlorine or chloramines, not a water mineral.

I occasionally use Epsom salt too to boost Mg. I also use it in starters along with a pinch of zinc chloride and DAP.

 

[stewsbrew902]

Hey so I'm just beginning to look into adjusting my tap water profile which is:
pH: 7.3
Calcium: 3.9ppm
Magnesium: 0.4ppm
Sodium: 16.0ppm
Sulfate: 7.7 ppm
Chloride: 8.8 ppm
Bicarbonate: 22.5 ppm

I'm wanting to start simple since this is all foreign to me, so I was thinking of using:
5.2 pH stabilizer and campden tablets (to help lower chlorine levels that have been noticable in a couple batches in the form of "clove" flavour, which should not have been there).

Thoughts on this? I know there seems to be mixed reviews on the 5.2 pH stabilizer, so I just want to see if my beer will benefit from it or not. Love my brews, but always looking to improve.

Thanks!

 

[h22lude]

Hi all!

I am just starting to try to get a grasp of water chemistry so I've been looking a lot through the forum to get some ideas of what it's all about. However, one question that I was unable to find an answer on was exactly what water agents are necessary to have in your inventory. Can anybody tell me this? I currently have some gypsum, calcium chloride, 5.2 stabilizer and Epsom salt. Is there anything else I should pick up? Maybe Phosphoric acid? Calcium Carbonate? etc. Any feedback is appreciated.

Also, if you need to see a full water report, I'll be able to provide it in a few days as I will be shipping it today.

Thank you,
Casey

Throw 5.2 away. It works for 1% of the population using it. Five Star has said it was made for one brewery and their water but decided to start selling it. If your water is close to the water of that brewery, it may work. 99 times out of 100, it won't work as advertised.

Gypsum, CaCl, baking soda and an acid are all you will need. Baking soda is used to increase pH while acid is used to lower it.

Hey so I'm just beginning to look into adjusting my tap water profile which is:
pH: 7.3
Calcium: 3.9ppm
Magnesium: 0.4ppm
Sodium: 16.0ppm
Sulfate: 7.7 ppm
Chloride: 8.8 ppm
Bicarbonate: 22.5 ppm

I'm wanting to start simple since this is all foreign to me, so I was thinking of using:
5.2 pH stabilizer and campden tablets (to help lower chlorine levels that have been noticable in a couple batches in the form of "clove" flavour, which should not have been there).

Thoughts on this? I know there seems to be mixed reviews on the 5.2 pH stabilizer, so I just want to see if my beer will benefit from it or not. Love my brews, but always looking to improve.

Thanks!

Like mentioned above, 5.2 will most likely not work. Get gypsum and calcium chloride.


Campden tablets are great but if it is just chlorine, you can leave your water out over night for free. That will remove any chlorine. If it is chloramine, you will need the tablets. Though, they are so cheap you can use them for chlorine if you want. No harm done.

 

[stewsbrew902]

Alright thanks! I'm pretty sure it is Chlorine in our water so I will try leaving it out over night before brewing the next day. I'm going to go with the assumption that it should be open to air? lid off?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I prefer 88% lactic acid to 10% phosphoric, but only because you use so much less for the same effect with lactic acid. On the order of about 10.5 times less (volume for volume). If 10% phosphoric was to cost 10.5 times less than 88% lactic acid by volume this would be a moot point, and at that juncture I would prefer phosphoric.

All you really need is:
CaSO4
CaCl
88% Lactic or 10% Phosphoric acid
Baking Soda

Epsom Salt is not actually needed. There is an over abundance of requisite magnesium present within malted grains. Adding more magnesium can not bring benefit, but rather can only lead to an undesired bitterness.

 

[Yooper]

I use gypsum, calcium chloride, and phosphoric acid. I've used lactic acid in the past, since it's easy to find, but didn't replace it when I ran out.

I've never needed baking soda, because my tap water has high alkalinity and I just some of my tap water (instead of RO water) when I make a stout.

I don't use epsom salts (malt has plenty of magnesium), or anything else.

Most people can be very happy with baking soda, gypsum, calcium chloride and phosphoric acid, and never need anything else.

 

[bajaedition]

I tend to stay away from phosphoric acid, I do not like to put things listed on the HAZMAT list into my beer.

 

[h22lude]

I tend to stay away from phosphoric acid, I do not like to put things listed on the HAZMAT list into my beer.

Do you drink soda?

 

[Yooper]

I tend to stay away from phosphoric acid, I do not like to put things listed on the HAXMAT list into my beer.

That's too bad, since it's flavorless and works great in small quantities to hit the proper mash pH. Lactic acid adds lactates, so it's not flavor neutral, while phosphoric acid adds some phosphates to the mash.

I suppose that people who avoid phosphoric acid avoid soda pop, too, since that's loaded with phosphoric acid. And since phosphorus is found naturally in the human body, it must be tough to stay away from it!

Just ribbing you- you can definitely avoid what you want to avoid but it's not at all dangerous or something to be fearful of, any more than lactic acid or other acids are. I don't want others to be "whoa, danger danger!". Some brewers even use hydrochloric acid in their brewing which I would avoid since I'm a bit clumsy.

 

[bajaedition]

about the 5.2 stabilizer
I use it to great result
others here say it is bunk, I wonder how many have read that and are repeating such and how many have tested it like Yooper.

My water comes from my well, I had it tested it is borderline hard, but is not bad for brewing, PH out of the ground is 6.4
once grains are introduced I add the recommended amount and get a ph of 5.1 to 5.4 on average, I can live with that. I love the stuff

Yooper tells me it never worked for her. She tested it.

So there are 2 test, each with different results.

I think, As with many products, It is a matter of what works with your water. Maybe the LHBS you go to will allow you to test a tablespoon to test it.

 

[bajaedition]

That's too bad, since it's flavorless and works great in small quantities to hit the proper mash pH. Lactic acid adds lactates, so it's not flavor neutral, while phosphoric acid adds some phosphates to the mash.

I suppose that people who avoid phosphoric acid avoid soda pop, too, since that's loaded with phosphoric acid. And since phosphorus is found naturally in the human body, it must be tough to stay away from it!

Just ribbing you- you can definitely avoid what you want to avoid but it's not at all dangerous or something to be fearful of, any more than lactic acid or other acids are. I don't want others to be "whoa, danger danger!". Some brewers even use hydrochloric acid in their brewing which I would avoid since I'm a bit clumsy.

Yes I avoid Soda pop like the plague.

I also avoid foods with preservatives pumped in them. Does that limit my selection, YES it limits my selection of processed foods, many of which are not good for you. I instead prefer to make a lot of my foods from organic sources. At 59 I am not plagued with a lot of the problems many younger than me have. I consider that a dietary benefit of not eating a lot of chemicals pumped into my foods to make them look better of have a longer shelf life. I go so far as to raise my own beef, chicken and pork to make sure they are not injected with hormones.

It is nothing but my personal decision

 

[h22lude]

about the 5.2 stabilizer
I use it to great result
others here say it is bunk, I wonder how many have read that and are repeating such and how many have tested it like Yooper.

My water comes from my well, I had it tested it is borderline hard, but is not bad for brewing, PH out of the ground is 6.4
once grains are introduced I add the recommended amount and get a ph of 5.1 to 5.4 on average, I can live with that. I love the stuff

Yooper tells me it never worked for her. She tested it.

So there are 2 test, each with different results.

I think, As with many products, It is a matter of what works with your water. Maybe the LHBS you go to will allow you to test a tablespoon to test it.

What are your results? Are you basing the effectiveness of 5.2 on the outcome of the beer or the mash pH with and without 5.2? You say you get 5.1 to 5.4 using 5.2. What do you get without 5.2?

Directly from Five Star's website "5.2 is a proprietary blend of buffers that will lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". This is impossible. No product can bring every pH down to 5.2. It will work for people that have water close to the water of the brewery it was made for. But it says it is a quick fix for everyone's water which it is not. So yes this product is "bunk" as advertised.

 

[bajaedition]

What are your results? Are you basing the effectiveness of 5.2 on the outcome of the beer or the mash pH with and without 5.2? You say you get 5.1 to 5.4 using 5.2. What do you get without 5.2?

Directly from Five Star's website "5.2 is a proprietary blend of buffers that will lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". This is impossible. No product can bring every pH down to 5.2. It will work for people that have water close to the water of the brewery it was made for. But it says it is a quick fix for everyone's water which it is not. So yes this product is "bunk" as advertised.

6.4 from ground, add grains, add 5.2, results are given
without, it varies according to the grain bill


and there is why I think it works, I use good pure ground water, just as mother nature provides me, sourced from 385 feet below me. It has a good ph to start with. no chemicals added such as a water treatment plant does.
I think the product has buffers to stabilize the PH, not lower it from extreme levels to 5.2. just to keep it from swinging once set.

 

[h22lude]

6.4 from ground, add grains, add 5.2, results are given
without, it varies according to the grain bill


and there is why I think it works, I use good pure ground water, just as mother nature provides me, sourced from 385 feet below me. It has a good ph to start with. no chemicals added such as a water treatment plant does.
I think the product has buffers to stabilize the PH, not lower it from extreme levels to 5.2. just to keep it from swinging once set.

Your ground water pH doesn't matter. It is the alkalinity of the water that matters when calculating mash pH. I'd be interested in seeing what you get for a mash pH for a grain bill with and without 5.2.

If it works for you, that is great. Very little people have those results. It does have buffers but if you read my quote the company states it lowers the mash water pH to 5.2 no matter the starting level.

 

[bajaedition]

Your ground water pH doesn't matter. It is the alkalinity of the water that matters when calculating mash pH.

WTF

Do you know what alkalinity is?
If water hits the clean jug at 6.4 then it is stable at 6.4, alkaline water is above 7
alkalinity is the ability to neutralize acid, if water is 6.4 it is not alkaline, it is acidic, it can only make more acidic water less acidic, it can not neutralize the more acidic water.

If you need a treatise on total alkalinity, basicity and ph then remember PH can be changed without alkalinity

this is basic 1st year collage chemistry, studied before even finishing with the periodic table.

remember that the alkalinity of a solution is a measurement of how strong the bases are, the PH is how much of the basis are present. A buffer solution can have many bases present and have little effect on a solution.

so when a wort turns to beer and the PH lowers, it is because the we have less basicity, it is because we have added CO2 , however our alkalinity has remained unchanged.

PH is the change in Basicity

 

[h22lude]

WTF

Do you know what alkalinity is?
If water hits the clean jug at 6.4 then it is stable at 6.4, alkaline water is above 7
alkalinity is the ability to neutralize acid, if water is 6.4 it is not alkaline, it is acidic, it can only make more acidic water less acidic, it can not neutralize the more acidic water.

If you need a treatise on total alkalinity, basicity and ph then remember PH can be changed without alkalinity

this is basic 1st year collage chemistry, studied before even finishing with the periodic table.

remember that the alkalinity of a solution is a measurement of how strong the bases are, the PH is how much of the basis are present. A buffer solution can have many bases present and have little effect on a solution.

so when a wort turns to beer and the PH lowers, it is not becuase the we have less basicity, it is because we have added CO2 , however our alkalinity has remained unchanged.

Check out this thread...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=595625

Your water pH has no effect on mash pH

 

[Yooper]

this is basic 1st year collage chemistry, studied before even finishing with the periodic table.

We are talking about basic homebrewing water chemistry, and you are being insulting.

Sometimes sitting back, reading about how alkalinity impacts mash pH while water pH has very little impact, and thinking about that might make you realize that sometimes other people can be right.

You were simply asked what the mash pH of your wort is with and without the 5.2 stabilizer junk. You cannot answer. That's fine, but don't go wild with insulting other people who, believe it or not, know what they are talking about.

 

[bajaedition]

Check out this thread...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=595625

Your water pH has no effect on mash pH

Show me every thread you want, I have spent my life studying chemistry.

 

[bajaedition]

We are talking about basic homebrewing water chemistry, and you are being insulting.

Sometimes sitting back, reading about how alkalinity impacts mash pH while water pH has very little impact, and thinking about that might make you realize that sometimes other people can be right.

You were simply asked what the mash pH of your wort is with and without the 5.2 stabilizer junk. You cannot answer. That's fine, but don't go wild with insulting other people who, believe it or not, know what they are talking about.

I will give you an answer Sunday when I brew

 

[Yooper]

Show me every thread you want, I have spent my life studying chemistry.

Stop. Right this minute. Read the links or don't, but please stop arguing. No further warnings will be given.

 

[h22lude]

We are talking about basic homebrewing water chemistry, and you are being insulting.

Sometimes sitting back, reading about how alkalinity impacts mash pH while water pH has very little impact, and thinking about that might make you realize that sometimes other people can be right.

You were simply asked what the mash pH of your wort is with and without the 5.2 stabilizer junk. You cannot answer. That's fine, but don't go wild with insulting other people who, believe it or not, know what they are talking about.

Thanks Yooper. I didn't want to start any kind of argument. Was just trying to prove my point. Figured posting something from Martin and AJ would have helped but I guess it had the opposite effect.

 

[Lefou]

At first, I was doing a bit of hair-pulling deciding what would improve the soft water I'm using. After stumbling onto the HBT water threads making things simple, it's a relief.

The 5.2 Stabilizer costs about $5-$6 in the store.
HBT and two people in particular helped save my money AND my hair.