Which hot-side low oxygen steps have you implemented?

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Which hot-side low oxygen steps have you implemented?

  • Milling under purged conditions

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yeast Oxygen Scavenging (brewing liquor)

    Votes: 13 46.4%
  • De-oxygenation by boiling (brewing liquor)

    Votes: 7 25.0%
  • Adding BTB, K/SMB, AA, Sauergut to the mash

    Votes: 15 53.6%
  • Underletting the mash (or no splashing)

    Votes: 23 82.1%
  • Mash cap

    Votes: 14 50.0%
  • No-Sparge mashing

    Votes: 15 53.6%
  • Underletting the boil kettle (or no splashing)

    Votes: 19 67.9%
  • Low vigor boil

    Votes: 20 71.4%
  • I own a fully purged system (Stout Tanks)

    Votes: 1 3.6%

  • Total voters
    28

WalletHocker

Well-Known Member
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Probably best to implement all steps for most impact but just curious where everyone stands.

If you are not doing a step(s) why not? (Lack of equipment, etc...)
 
Since some of these steps are very simple to implement, I figured it can't hurt (if done correctly). I do the YOS process with my Anvil 10.5, and started adding BTB, AA and KMB to the sparge water and late in the boil. I also use some AA when transferring to the keg because doing the purged keg thing seems like a PITA. :mug:
 
Look, here's how I view Hot Side Aeration(HSA). Now, I could be completely wrong but, on a homebrew scale, 10 gallons or less, I honestly do not see that it is as big of an issue as it is made out to be. The issue of HSA became prevalent when large scale breweries were cranking out 100+ barrel batches. Their hot wort was transferred via pipeline to the boil kettle rather...violently. In my experience, HSA is only applicable in large volumes and even then, depending on the style you are brewing, is not something that I am going to alter my process to correct. I am not denying that the effect exists, nor am I denying that it can have an effect of the finished product. It is just my belief that on a 5 gallon batch the effects are negligible at best, and not something with which we should be concerned.
 
Please refrain from HSA/HSO opinion or discussion in this thread.

It's simply not what this thread is about.
 
If you are not doing a step(s) why not? (Lack of equipment, etc...)
If someone were to revise chapter of 1 of How to Brew 4e (2017) (or chapters 1 & 2 of Speed Brewing (2015)) for BIAB with oxygen reducing techniques - in other words a detailed description of a proven process - I would take a look at the process and techniques. It needs to be in "book" form, not a random collection of web pages. It needs to be detailed. It needs to target a "beginning" level brewer. It needs to be written by a neutral person.
 
Love the Mash Cap. The one we sell was developed with the help of a couple well known members here on HBT. I made some connection changes and options additions so it can be really versatile. It is a game changer IMHO.

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Sparge-Mash-Cap.html
Cheers
Jay

I saw that the other day on your site but don't understand how it functions as a mash cap in context of LODO techniques. Maybe I am not understanding how it works.
 
I saw that the other day on your site but don't understand how it functions as a mash cap in context of LODO techniques. Maybe I am not understanding how it works.
Yes, I'm also fuzzy on the linked mash cap. I would think that it should be solid to keep air away from the mash.
 
There’s an option missing, which is going to promote massive bias. ‘None’ = ‘I don’t consciously implement any prescribed practices to limit so-called HSA’. Pretending that’s not what this thread’s about just makes it a little bit more funny. Little more than a preconceived survey pushing its agenda. I‘m very happy with my beers, including my lagers. I can only assume someone somewhere is making money out of this tosh. Therefore I’d like to know how much home brewers subscribed to LODO spend on practicing what they preach. Even surveys need to be carefully designed, to be meaningful and represent a snapshot of averaged reality. Unless someone’s trying to sell something, of course.
 
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There’s an option missing that‘s going to promote massive bias. ‘None’ = ‘I don’t consciously implement any prescribed practices to limit so-called HSA. Pretending that’s not what this thread’s about just makes it a little bit more funny. Little more than a preconceived survey pushing its agenda. I‘m very happy with my beers, including my lagers. I can only assume someone somewhere is making money out of this tosh. Therefore I’d like to know how much home brewers subscribed to LODO spend on practicing what they preach. Even surveys need to be carefully designed, to be meaningful and represent a snapshot of averaged reality. Unless someone’s trying to sell something, of course.

We all know who you are and how you feel.

Some, perhaps most, even agree with you. Even I agree with you on most points but railing against it doesn't make it go away.

Some of the comments and the survey itself even lean towards your bent.

The only reason there isn't a 'None' option is because only 10 items are allowed on a survey (couldn't find a way to add more).

I think the comment about no dedicated book having been written on the subject speaks volumes:

1.) The knowledge is locked up in textbooks and science papers out-of-reach to the common homebrewer
2.) It requires a "high degree" of scientific (chemistry) knowledge to condense what is known into something readable for the homebrewer
3.) The benefits of such a process are difficult to quantify on a small scale
4.) The industry knows best practices (macro beer producers and chemical makers, BTB, Antioxin SBT etc...) and has invested the money to figure it out but that's because it gives them a return on their investment.

The LODO group and their webpage have summarized as best they could their processes learned from textbooks and their own experiments.

Still a down-to-earth treatment of the subject in a published book would require some heavy lifting but would certainly educate and put an end to much of the misinformation that has been generated.

As far as capitalizing on it... I'm not sure, it (the process) seems to be misunderstood by most (especially with home based experiments propagating misinformation) and really there are only two companies that have taken it to a "good enough" level with the help of the individual who first raised the issue. Stout Tanks low oxygen and Speidel Braumeister low oxygen kit. Both of which are expensive pieces of kit which most can't afford.

The problem with the money thing is that it has to be a complete system in order to realize the raison d'être of the process. Selling mash caps and chemicals based on these concepts probably doesn't generate a lot of revenue.
 
I use a Braumeister without a KIDO kit. If I want a beer with more flavor I‘ll brew an ale.
 
There wasn’t ever ‘high’ in the first place, ironically. That idea was engineered, to reinforce a logical idea. Unfortunately, for those pushing logical ideas, nature doesn’t dance to the constraints of logic, including the flawed logic of unconfirmed research and marketeers alike. They don’t test ideas. They sell them.
 
There wasn’t ever ‘high’ in the first place, ironically. That idea was engineered, to reinforce a logical idea. Unfortunately, for those pushing logical ideas, nature doesn’t dance to the constraints of logic, including the flawed logic of unconfirmed research and marketeers alike. They don’t test ideas. They sell them.

Yes, most would tend to agree with you.
 
Well, you did invite a discussion with the following:


doug293cz
HBT Moderator

Depends on your interpretation, I guess.

Perhaps allowing more poll options would help.

The assumption is that if you are responding to the poll then you are doing at least one step and can discuss why the other steps are not applicable to you without introducing the ever present 'Is HSA real' arguments.
 
HSA - the detectable impact(s) - is an opinion. We don't have enough data to accept or reject the claims so far. X% of LODO brewers doing y might translate into <0...0001 brewers generally. If we don't design a survey carefully , we're just pushing ideas. What does 50% of LODO brewers translate into? A not-even-incy-wincy minority of brewers who believe they're better, based on opinions. Remember, data, data, data.
 
OK I am doing the underletting steps because they are convenient on my system.

Underletting the mash seems to virtually eliminate the formation of dough balls. I still give it a stir but rarely find anything that needs to be broken up.

I underlet into the brew kettle because it seems obvious to go in through the bottom drain. It is not any extra work to not splash the wort on way into the brew kettle so that is what I do.

The rest of that stuff...I guess I'm just more interested in what hops bring to the beer than I am in what the malts bring. My beers are almost all so hop forward that I doubt any subtle improvement in the character of the unhopped wort will be pretty hard to detect.
 
Not really having much skin in this game as the saying goes. But, data ,data, data, where is it to the contrary that it has no effect. Or is it just an opinion?:cool:
 
Gravity (whatever that is) favours underletting. I pre-boil mash water, so it's close to strike temperature at silly o'clock. Nothing to do with LODO.
 
Not really having much skin in this game as the saying goes. But, data ,data, data, where is it to the contrary that it has no effect. Or is it just an opinion?:cool:
That's how 'it' works, mate. Thankfully. If someone claims 'x' they need to provide evidence they were unable to disprove it, even with very good experimental design. Otherwise it's just 'my mate down the pub reckons...'
 
HSA - the detectable impact(s) - is an opinion. We don't have enough data to accept or reject the claims so far. X% of LODO brewers doing y might translate into <0...0001 brewers generally. If we don't design a survey carefully , we're just pushing ideas. What does 50% of LODO brewers translate into? A not-even-incy-wincy minority of brewers who believe they're better, based on opinions. Remember, data, data, data.

Again most would agree and accept what you keep regurgitating as fact.

Fact: There's not enough data.

The hard part is gathering the data.

It would be much more productive to discuss and organize methods of data acquisition than to keep saying "there's not enough data."
 
I think it would only be fair if someone always commenting on this subject would have data to the opposite opinion. You know since one is asking for data on something they disagree, data is a two way street in debate.
 
I don't have any facts to regurgitate.
Again most would agree and accept what you keep regurgitating as fact.

Fact: There's not enough data.

The hard part is gathering the data.

It would be much more productive to discuss and organize methods of data acquisition than to keep saying "there's not enough data."
I'll be guided by scientific data, not opinions expressed by home brewers on a fringe. What you decide to be guided by is your choice, it's a free world.
 
I think it would only be fair if someone always commenting on this subject would have data to the opposite opinion. You know since one is asking for data on something they disagree, data is a two way street in debate.
Again, that's not how it works. Lack of data doesn't prove anything, does it? Otherwise you're saying preconceived ideas are valid.
 
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I did not say anything was valid or not. The hobby is homebrewing, people have a right to do it as they please without explaining to others. In a debate either side tries to make their point and to back it with data.
 
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Yes, I'm also fuzzy on the linked mash cap. I would think that it should be solid to keep air away from the mash.
Being able to sit the sparge system on the mash top and not "sparging" in terms of letting the sparge water fall through the air picking up even more O2 is all. Sticking with the LODO also in terms of LOW O2 not Void of O2 :)
Cheers
Jay
 
I did not say anything was valid or not. The hobby is homebrewing, people have a right to do it as they please without explaining to others. In a debate either side tries to make their point and to back it with data.
HSA isn't anything like 'do yous think my fermentation is infected?' It's a theory that needs to be tested and supported by credible scientific data. Ideally, before believers bang on about it being a thing that matters. Believe itself doesn't cut it.
 
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How should pertinent data be gathered?

The LODO group used a DO meter to measure dissolved oxygen levels throughout the process. The effect of each step (listed in the poll) on DO levels was measured.

Is there a correlation between DO levels and oxidation? If not, then why not? If so, then any data they've gathered would be relevant.
 
I can honestly say that low oxygen brewing made a difference in my very first batch of pils that I brewed very regularly. As I got more familiar with the process and progressed my malt forward beers certainly did improve with more noticeable malt flavor. With my 2 vessel system it was under $50 to implement. It is so economical and easy to decide if you can taste any difference. There are some brewers on every forum who have never done it and will tell you that it's baloney, I didn't listen to them. I have a hard time taking expert advice from someone who has never actually done something. Cheers
 
That it makes a measurable difference that translates into more than opinion. The same reason we do anything science based, right?
 
That it makes a measurable difference that translates into more than opinion. The same reason we do anything science based, right?

Yes you are correct but what process would you use to gather the data and what variables would you be looking at?
 
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