Which hot-side low oxygen steps have you implemented?

[Jaybird]

Yes, I'm also fuzzy on the linked mash cap. I would think that it should be solid to keep air away from the mash.

Being able to sit the sparge system on the mash top and not "sparging" in terms of letting the sparge water fall through the air picking up even more O2 is all. Sticking with the LODO also in terms of LOW O2 not Void of O2
Cheers
Jay

 

[McMullan]

I did not say anything was valid or not. The hobby is homebrewing, people have a right to do it as they please without explaining to others. In a debate either side tries to make their point and to back it with data.

HSA isn't anything like 'do yous think my fermentation is infected?' It's a theory that needs to be tested and supported by credible scientific data. Ideally, before believers bang on about it being a thing that matters. Believe itself doesn't cut it.

 

[WalletHocker]

How should pertinent data be gathered?

The LODO group used a DO meter to measure dissolved oxygen levels throughout the process. The effect of each step (listed in the poll) on DO levels was measured.

Is there a correlation between DO levels and oxidation? If not, then why not? If so, then any data they've gathered would be relevant.

 

[McMullan]

How should [pertinent] data be gathered?

By qualified scientists, for a start. Not bloggers blagging it.

 

[Red over White]

I can honestly say that low oxygen brewing made a difference in my very first batch of pils that I brewed very regularly. As I got more familiar with the process and progressed my malt forward beers certainly did improve with more noticeable malt flavor. With my 2 vessel system it was under $50 to implement. It is so economical and easy to decide if you can taste any difference. There are some brewers on every forum who have never done it and will tell you that it's baloney, I didn't listen to them. I have a hard time taking expert advice from someone who has never actually done something. Cheers

 

[WalletHocker]

By qualified scientists, for a start. Not bloggers blagging it.

Are you a qualified scientist? If so, how would you go about it?

 

[McMullan]

Data?

 

[WalletHocker]

Data?

Sure, you would gather data but what process would you use to gather that data and what variables would you be looking at?

 

[McMullan]

That it makes a measurable difference that translates into more than opinion. The same reason we do anything science based, right?

 

[WalletHocker]

That it makes a measurable difference that translates into more than opinion. The same reason we do anything science based, right?

Yes you are correct but what process would you use to gather the data and what variables would you be looking at?

 

[McMullan]

You want a specific experimental design to test LODO as a worthwhile practice for home brewers? I guess there's an interesting ongoing natural experiment, in the form of homebrew competitions. How do LODOists fair? Otherwise, leave the science to the scientists working on the problem, because it's a lot more complicated than claimed by the LODOists.

 

[Franktalk]

Being able to sit the sparge system on the mash top and not "sparging" in terms of letting the sparge water fall through the air picking up even more O2 is all. Sticking with the LODO also in terms of LOW O2 not Void of O2
Cheers
Jay

Ahhh, I see. Thanks!

 

[WalletHocker]

You want a specific experimental design to test LODO as a worthwhile practice for home brewers? I guess there's an interesting ongoing natural experiment, in the form of homebrew competitions. How do LODOists fair? Otherwise, leave the science to the scientists working on the problem, because it's a lot more complicated than claimed by the LODOists stuck on Mount Stupid.

The LODO group correlated malt and hop exposure to measured O2 levels (air and DO) with time on both the hot and cold side. The longer the exposure to O2 the more the color darkened and the aroma and flavor subsided. The quantity of O2 also had an effect on the length of time freshness was retained with larger quantities hastening the demise.

Is this not valid for homebrewers? How would a professional scientist approach this? What would they do different?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think the comment about no dedicated book having been written on the subject speaks volumes:

1.) The knowledge is locked up in textbooks and science papers out-of-reach to the common homebrewer
2.) It requires a "high degree" of scientific (chemistry) knowledge to condense what is known into something readable for the homebrewer
3.) The benefits of such a process are difficult to quantify on a small scale
4.) The industry knows best practices (macro beer producers and chemical makers, BTB, Antioxin SBT etc...) and has invested the money to figure it out but that's because it gives them a return on their investment.

The LODO group and their webpage have summarized as best they could their processes learned from textbooks and their own experiments.

Still a down-to-earth treatment of the subject in a published book would require some heavy lifting but would certainly educate and put an end to much of the misinformation that has been generated.

In draft form, how much "heavy lifting" would there be in writing the process steps for just one or two of the following:

• Yeast Oxygen Scavenging (brewing liquor)
• Adding BTB, K/SMB, AA, Sauergut to the mash
• Underletting the mash (or no splashing)
• Mash cap
• No-Sparge mashing
• Underletting the boil kettle (or no splashing)
• Low vigor boil

then post the process steps here for people that are interested in further discussion on the process steps (and also discussion on approaches for validating that the steps result in better beer).

 

[McMullan]

How would a professional scientist approach this? What would they do different?

Design experiments to disprove assumed correlations?

 

[WalletHocker]

In draft form, how much "heavy lifting" would there be in writing the process steps for just one or two of the following:

• Yeast Oxygen Scavenging (brewing liquor)
• Adding BTB, K/SMB, AA, Sauergut to the mash
• Underletting the mash (or no splashing)
• Mash cap
• No-Sparge mashing
• Underletting the boil kettle (or no splashing)
• Low vigor boil

then post the process steps here for people that are interested in further discussion on the steps and on data collection?

I believe the heavy lifting would come in the form of understanding the science behind each step, listing accurate dosing requirements for SMB and AA, hot and cold side, providing accurate DO reduction numbers for each step, etc... in general doing due diligence to be accurate *and* comparing these methods with the numbers for a fully purged system, such that "partial implementation" is distinguished from "full implementation".

Most of this information has likely already been gathered and published by the LODO group.

 

[eric19312]

I guess there's an interesting ongoing natural experiment, in the form of homebrew competitions. How do LODOists fair?

I'm curious about this one too. Are LODO pilsners and lagers sweeping the competitions? I seem to remember last year a guy who won using extract...

 

[McMullan]

I believe the heavy lifting would come in the form of understanding the science behind each step, listing accurate dosing requirements for SMB and AA, hot and cold side, providing accurate DO reduction numbers for each step, etc... in general doing due diligence to be accurate *and* comparing these methods with the numbers for a fully purged system, such that "partial implementation" is distinguished from "full implementation".

Most of this information has likely already been gathered and published by the LODO group.

Assumption being a ‘fully purged system’ is a meaningful standard and DO is even a valid surrogate for whatever it is LODOists claim. Like I’ve already typed, it’s very complicated.

 

[WalletHocker]

Design experiments to disprove assumed correlations?

Correlations can be proven or disproven. If enough data is available this can be done statistically.

 

[McMullan]

Correlations can be proven or disproven. If enough data is available this can be done statistically.

Nothing is ever proven, scientifically. Scientists aren’t that arrogant. This is where the naive get it so wrong time after time, pursuing the little facts planted in their brains.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Most of this information has likely already been gathered and published by the LODO group.

... so maybe the next step forward is

post the process steps here for people that are interested in further discussion on the process steps (and also discussion on approaches for validating that the steps result in better beer).

 

[DuncB]

Being able to sit the sparge system on the mash top and not "sparging" in terms of letting the sparge water fall through the air picking up even more O2 is all. Sticking with the LODO also in terms of LOW O2 not Void of O2
Cheers
Jay

The solubility of oxygen in water at 76 celsius must be pretty low especially given it's exposure time.

Does anyone know the solubility per litre at that temperature?

 

[DuncB]

What's a qualified scientist?

 

[DuncB]

Love the Mash Cap. The one we sell was developed with the help of a couple well known members here on HBT. I made some connection changes and options additions so it can be really versatile. It is a game changer IMHO.

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Sparge-Mash-Cap.html
Cheers
Jay

Does this device spread the sparge water out over that large surface so increasing the area for oxygen absorption, rate still to be confirmed as per my other post. Won't make a difference if it's falling thru the air or lying in a puddle it is still exposed to air.

 

[McMullan]

What's a qualified scientist?

A scientist actively working in his field of expertise, offering an expert view based on available scientific data. Not a chancer basing it on blah, blah, blah.

 

[WalletHocker]

Nothing is ever proven, scientifically. Scientists aren’t that arrogant. This is where the naive get it so wrong time after time, pursuing the little facts planted in their brains.

You apparently have no knowledge of correlation and causation.

Correlation can be proven to be causation just as you can prove causation and not correlation.

 

[McMullan]

You apparently have no knowledge of correlation and causation.

Correlation can be proven to be causation just as you can prove causation and not correlation.

Science doesn't work like that. It's a bit more rigorous, you'll find. Fact-check it.

 

[WalletHocker]

Science doesn't work like that. It's a bit more rigorous, you'll find. Fact-check it.

We are talking about validating the data gathered by the LODO group correct?

How would a professional scientist approach this? What would they do different?

 

[McMullan]

Validation of preconceived ideas? Scary stuff. Maybe focus on your survey a bit more for the time being.

 

[WalletHocker]

Validation of preconceived ideas? Scary stuff. Maybe focus on your survey a bit more for the time being.

You are correct but how would a professional scientist approach this? What would they do different?