When will this dumb-ass province bottom out on stupidity?

[mr x]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080215/koddities/language_brew_ha_ha_with_list

 

[david_42]

The three most abundant things in the Universe: Hydrogen, Helium and Stupidity.

 

[Fingers]

The only province to use the notwithstanding clause and this is how they use that power.

 

[EdWort]

I find it amazing. I had to to work in Hull, Quebec a few times, but I always stayed overnight on the Ontario side where they are more friendly to English speakers.

Anyway, I start my class the first day with a WTF or "What's up with this" question.

I made the observation that while staying on the Ontario side of the river, I noticed all sorts of signs in English AND French. All the street signs were bi-lingual. The problem is, on the Kebecky side, all the signs are in FRENCH ONLY. So I ask What's up with that?

Man, you could hear a pin drop in the class room, then crickets for 20 seconds before some dude in the back says "You don't want to go there man". Then another student says "Don't get me started".

I took the English speakers out for beers that night on the right side of the river. We had a blast. Canucks are great hosts!

 

[Fingers]

I find it amazing. I had to to work in Hull, Quebec a few times, but I always stayed overnight on the Ontario side where they are more friendly to English speakers.

Anyway, I start my class the first day with a WTF or "What's up with this" question.

I made the observation that while staying on the Ontario side of the river, I noticed all sorts of signs in English AND French. All the street signs were bi-lingual. The problem is, on the Kebecky side, all the signs are in FRENCH ONLY. So I ask What's up with that?

Man, you could hear a pin drop in the class room, then crickets for 20 seconds before some dude in the back says "You don't want to go there man". Then another student says "Don't get me started".

I took the English speakers out for beers that night on the right side of the river. We had a blast. Canucks are great hosts!

A near majority of Quebecers want to separate from Canada and be their own country. As a result, they are protecting their language from being diluted by all the english around them. In Canada, we have a 'work around' for our constitution called 'notwithstanding'. This means that a government, provincial or federal, can override the constitution by drafting a law that would not meet a constitutional challenge. The new law is notwithstanding the constitution. This is what happened in Quebec.

Think about it. If you have a Chinese restaurant, catering to Chinese speaking people in a Chinese section of a Quebec town or city, you cannot advertise the restaurant in Chinese in lettering that is larger than the french. French must always be the dominant language on any signage. This is applicable only in Quebec. The rest of the nation allows free speech. Should you not comply with this law, you will be fined every day that you don't comply until the business is bankrupt.

Here's another good one. We have several national parties that sit in our government, three of which are dominant and represent the entire country. There is, however, a fourth. The mandate of this party is to look out for the interests of a single province, and to promote secession of that province from the rest of the country. They work to get as many tax dollars for their province as possible and will not promote the interests of any other province in the country unless it has a positive effect on their own province.

There is nothing we can do about this party because they get enough votes in Quebec to elect members to parliament. It's our free democratic system that is putting these seditionists into power. As a good patriotic Canadian, I have to grind my teeth and support their right to do what they're doing.

 

[mrfocus]

Maybe you don't understand how exceptional it is that French is still spoken in North America today, despite being surrounded by 50 times our population of solely English speakers (and a few Spanish ones in the south USA).

And although I can understand the frustration of most other provinces at the existence of the Bloc Quebecois (the aforementioned political party) if the federation worked like it is supposed to (aka decentralization) I think everyone would be happier. Most English Canadians are frustrated with the existence of the Bloc simply because it means they don't have local representation at the federal level as Quebecois do. Wouldn't you be happier (or any Canadian) if instead the $14 billion surplus was split between the provinces so that they can decide what they want to do with it. Doesn't it show how bad the federal system works if we have to pay 20% income tax to them, and they have a surplus of about $1000 per income tax payer.

Although I agree with the law that signs and such that publicize either your company or the direct products it sells (e.g. menus or white boards) should be in French, in this case, the law simply doesn't apply, since it truly is decor. The problem is, some people are so afraid (seems like everyone is afraid of everything these days anyways) that they see problems where there aren't any.

 

[Fingers]

Maybe you don't understand how exceptional it is that French is still spoken in North America today, despite being surrounded by 50 times our population of solely English speakers (and a few Spanish ones in the south USA).

It isn't exceptional when you consider that it's being forced on the entire population of the province. Even less so when that province forces it on the rest of the country. It appears that preserving the french language trumps the right of citizens to communicate in the manner and language of their choice. I can accept taking some steps to preserve the culture of such a large population of french speaking citizens, but to force it on people by an act of Parliament that overrides their basic constitutional rights is going a little too far, IMHO.

We're not really talking culture here, we're talking language. I think there is a greater disparity of culture between Newfoundland and Saskatchewan than between Quebec and Ontario for example.

In the house of commons the business that is conducted is supposed to be running the country for the benefit of its citizens. The Bloc only serves the interest of a minority of the country at the expense of the majority. You could argue that each party represents only its special group, but the representation is by political affiliation and not by region. The Bloc wants to break up the country. No secret there. So we effectively have a portion of our government that exists for a mandated purpose of committing political suicide. Should Quebec secede from Canada, the Bloc would cease to exist.

 

[mr x]

Most English Canadians are frustrated with the existence of the Bloc simply because it means they don't have local representation at the federal level as Quebecois do.

Please tell me you don't actually believe that.

 

[eriktlupus]

maybe ya all should kick their ass out and let them eat their french culture instead of sucking the life from the rest of canada

 

[mrfocus]

We're not really talking culture here, we're talking language. I think there is a greater disparity of culture between Newfoundland and Saskatchewan than between Quebec and Ontario for example.

I really don't think so. Actually, here is an image from a textbook for my Marketing class:

French:

English:

Pretty easy to see that on not ONE question did Québecois and RoC (rest of Canada) answer the same, or even similar.

Please tell me you don't actually believe that.

Please tell me that you WOULDN'T vote for a federal party that promised to defend New Brunswick, let's say by asking more money to widen your economy which mainly relies on ONE ressource, the Ocean, and which is going through some of the hardest times ever.

maybe ya all should kick their ass out and let them eat their french culture instead of sucking the life from the rest of canada

Québec has tried two times to separate from Canada. The last time (in 1995) the federal government spent huge amounts of money for ads saying that English Canada loves us, they even rented buses to send English speaking Canadians from Toronto, Ottawa, and some maritime provinces to go through the streets of Montreal (a third of the population of Québec lives in Montréal) to say that they love us and they want us to stay in the federation, all the while, of course, flailing Canadian flags. They also approved tens thousands of immigrants, as long as they were to vote against separation. This last point is what really shot the Québec Prime Minister in the foot (Jacques Parizeau), since he said that Québec lost the referendum because of the immigrants, which is true, when you look at how close the vote was defeated:

the motion to decide whether Quebec should secede from Canada was defeated by an extremely small margin: 50.58% "No" to 49.42% "Yes".

0.58% of about 5 million: 0.58/100*5000000 = 29000, you can see how allowing tens of thousands immigrants who would vote against separation would help.

So basically, when we show any sign of independence, the federal government wants us, and in between the referendums on the separation, they just don't care. It's quite the love-hate relationship.

 

[Chriso]

The Quebecois attitude definitely lessens my desire to visit that region though. I'd vacation in BC or Toronto in a heartbeat, but why do I want to be around a bunch of proud people who think less of me because I don't speak French? (Especially since French isn't a dead language, there's still a country that speaks it, move there if you love it so much!)

I fit right in in Sask. They grow and store grain, we grow and store grain. Only difference is they do more barley and wheat, we do mostly corn and soy. Other than that, I felt as if I had never left home. I'd move to Regina in a heartbeat, even knowing that it is an economically "dead" city with the exact problems that Lincoln has (primarily meth manuf/use and unemployment).


(Just some mumbling from a Southerner who wishes he was Canadian)

 

[Fingers]

I really don't think so. Actually, here is an image from a textbook for my Marketing class:

Well here you're comparing Quebec against the entire rest of the country. As I said, I think there is a greater cultural disparity between right and left coasts and the prairies. If you averaged them out you get what you see. I imagine that if you made the same comparison chart between Newfoundland and Saskatchewan specifically you'd see a huge difference too. Compare the rest of Canada, including Quebec, against any other province alone and you'd likely see that trend.

So basically, when we show any sign of independence, the federal government wants us, and in between the referendums on the separation, they just don't care. It's quite the love-hate relationship.

Didn't Quebec get recognized as a distinct society by the feds recently? That was a pretty major step in giving Quebec unique standing among all the rest of the provinces and I think that's what ticks off most of us. I tend to think of us all as Canadians and equal with one another. It doesn't appear as if Quebec wants equality, they want something the rest of us don't have. Why be recognized as a distinct society? I can only think of one reason. Special treatment. If Quebec wants something special, why should the rest of us kick in our money to pay for it? Go ahead and be special, just like the rest of us.

As far as distinct society, what could be more distinct than the Inuit? Maybe the entire native population of the country? What exactly is Quebec asking for when they're recognized as distinct and why does it care whether or not the rest of the country recognizes its particular differences? It's being shoved into our faces and it seems like we're being told that if we don't give Quebec special treatment then they're taking their country and going home.

I don't think there will be any winners if Quebec separates. It would be difficult for it to leave with its borders intact because of treaties drawn up with native populations that originally drew those borders. Quebec would have to assume its fair share of the national debt or risk downgraded credit in the international banking world. Its last referendum question proposed separation with an economic association with Canada, using Canadian currency and amusingly enough, Canadian military defense. All this time the Prime Minister was saying that we would not have an association beyond anything we have with any other sovereign state. I believe the quote was, 'You can't have a marriage and a divorce both'.

So was born the clarity act that really pissed off Quebec. If it wants to separate, let's be sure that the impact is fully understood, n'est pas? I mean, it sounded great to be able to keep all the benefits of confederation and lose all the control the feds had, but that isn't realistic. If Quebec separates, it's on its own. State the question properly without subterfuge. It's only fair.

 

[david_42]

One guy I know can soak up a language, accent, attitude & all in a couple weeks. He travels to Quebec frequently & speaks Parisian French, while making it clear that Kabecker (his spelling) isn't really French. Some times, he'll ask people to speak English so he can understand them.

People from Brooklyn can be like that.

 

[mrfocus]

Didn't Quebec get recognized as a distinct society by the feds recently?

Although it's a step forward, it doesn't actually involve anything at all. It's about as inactive as you can get. "Wow, Canada recognizes our distinct society." You would think they would have recognized us for over 40 years, but nope, it just happened.

It would be difficult for it to leave with its borders intact because of treaties drawn up with native populations that originally drew those borders.

Which of the over 300 that have been proposed but not signed, meaning they have no legal substance, other than the fact that they exist. It's like if someone proposed a bill for something and the house of commons NEVER voted on it, they just acknowledged that the bill exists.

Some times, he'll ask people to speak English so he can understand them.

Believe me, Québec French isn't that different than France French, even though the latter population would like to believe so, since they think of us as their bastard cousin that they haven't talked to in 200 years. We can perfectly understand France French, and they're like "Oh mais putin qu'est-ce qu'ils disent ces cons?" (Oh what the hell are those idiots saying?). Funny how American movies that are dubbed in French and released around the world are more and more frequently being dubbed in Québec, with our accent, but with a more international vocabulary. Because if they want to go to countries in Africa, they can't use the French accent.

Quite honestly, the difference is similar to the British and American English, except that the French really LOVE using English words, like "parking" (in lieu of "stationnement"). I guess it makes them feel special. Also, the Québec French accent hasn't evolved that much, (if it ain't broke, don't fix it?) whereas the France French one has. Basically, Québec and France French were the same thing 200 years ago, and France decided to think that they were cool and evolved their accent into something where you're mouth never opens more than half an inch.

 

[mr x]

Please tell me that you WOULDN'T vote for a federal party that promised to defend New Brunswick, let's say by asking more money to widen your economy which mainly relies on ONE ressource, the Ocean, and which is going through some of the hardest times ever.

That wasn't my comment. I expect all elected leaders to represent their electorate. The thought that somehow the PQ does this for Quebec and others do not in their respective provinces is ridiculous.

And to think that the rest of the country is jealous of the PQ for doing something that their leaders have always done is just wrong. But what ever works to keep the old boy's war going.

 

[Dr Vorlauf]

Quebec was supposed to end up with French cuisine, English culture and American engineering.

Instead the ended up with English cuisine, American culture and French engineering.

 

[FlyGuy]

This whole Quebec vs. Canada thing is so silly. I live in Alberta and we have similar issues with identity, and we also have a distinct set of ideals and beliefs.

So we just used all our oil money to buy a federal party and the government so we could get our way. Sooooooo much simpler than Quebec's tactic.

 

[mrfocus]

So you really that that the elected leader for the NPD really protects and seeks to have your rights defended in the house of commons, as someone from Halifax? The leverage that the few deputies from Nova Scotia have in the NPD is marginal. Although the NPD does seek a better Canada, they don't specifically seek a better Nova Scotia. The problem is that before the creation of the Bloc, no one defended and wanted a better Québec (we would actually get screwed over a lot), and since it is such a different province (if you still don't believe it, well sorry but I don't know how I can make you understand), we sort of need someone to defend us. The fact that the Bloc gets so many votes prove that it is needed.

I actually was non-separatist a little over a year ago. Now, mainly for economical reasons (I want Québec to decide what to do with our part of the Federal surplus) and since there are such differences, I really don't see how Québec can stay with the Federation. If the RoC wasn't so opposed to Québec's independence, I would actually prone something similar to Switzerland, where each state decides most of the stuff they want (which is what Canada is supposed to be) but where the Federal government takes care of a few things (Military). The problem is that since the Federal government decided to take care of a lot of stuff back in the day, they can ask for more money. They just don't want to let go of that power, because they know they will loose money, at the profit of provincial governments.

Other examples of independence seeking state if Flanders. It took almost 200 days to be able to form a government in 2007 after federal elections. They will most likely separate quite soon as the population ratio is quite similar (45-55% Flemish and Wallons).

 

[mrfocus]

So we just used all our oil money to buy a federal party and the government so we could get our way. Sooooooo much simpler than Quebec's tactic.

Yeah, that's why I can see a day in the far future where Québec will separate. Once all your oil is gone, tough luck (not trying to be mean). We have developed industries (Hydro-electricity, Pharmaceutical engineering, computer games, movie production) that will continue to prosper in the long run.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Although I agree with the law that signs and such that publicize either your company or the direct products it sells (e.g. menus or white boards) should be in French

I'm quite neutral on most topics in this thread, but this is the one comment that strikes me. While signs relating to public safety (like street signs) should probably be standardized, shouldn't privately owned signs and advertisements be ungoverned? In particular, advertising should be fairly free in terms of language. In a capitalist society, advertising will take care of itself. If you advertise a product in Swahili in a region where no one speaks that language, your advertisement will be ineffective. Likewise, if you advertise in English where a majority of the population has a vested interest in keeping their French roots intact, your product isn't likely to sell as well as if you had advertised in French, or at least with a bilingual message.

 

[FlyGuy]

Yeah, that's why I can see a day in the far future where Québec will separate. Once all your oil is gone, tough luck (not trying to be mean). We have developed industries (Hydro-electricity, Pharmaceutical engineering, computer games, movie production) that will continue to prosper in the long run.

Dude -- I was just joking man. This thread is in desperate need of some levity.

Regardless, our new premier just told us we actually have a PLAN now for all our money. So nobody is worrying about the future -- we have a plan now. Whew. Back to my apathetic and ignorant Albertan lifestyle with no concern for the future or my neighbors!

 

[mr x]

So you really that that the elected leader for the NPD really protects and seeks to have your rights defended in the house of commons, as someone from Halifax?

You're dancing around my question. Do you believe that the rest of Canada is jealous of the Bloc because they are doing a job that the rest of Canadian politicians do not?

 

[Fingers]

I wonder what would happen to the country if all the other provinces fielded a federal party dedicated only to their own interests? I'm not even talking about parties that are interested in seceding, just that concentrate solely on providing for themselves alone.

Personally I expect my elected federal representative to look out for my interests as a Manitoban, but not at the expense of the rest of the country. In fact, I never vote for the person but rather for the party that I think will do the most good for Canada as a whole. I'm far less interested in provincial politics than federal politics. What's good for the nation is good for me.

 

[mrfocus]

You're dancing around my question. Do you believe that the rest of Canada is jealous of the Bloc because they are doing a job that the rest of Canadian politicians do not?

Not as directly.

I'm far less interested in provincial politics than federal politics. What's good for the nation is good for me.

Right, except that Québec is used to getting screwed over by the Federal government (Le Livre noir du Canada anglais has some examples, although the facts are correct, some of the authors are, I agree, fallacious) that if we solely relied on the Federal government, majority would simply take over (since Québec is only about 25% of the population). Again, if the Federal government hadn't decided to take over so much power back in the day, we probably wouldn't be here. Even the Conservative party in Québec (Action Démocratique du Québec) believes in more power to the provinces. If I remember correctly, even Dalton McGuinty wants more provincial power. Again, if Canada were a true parliamentary federation, similar to Switzerland or Germany (man, how many types of Germans are there? they now all get along) Québec would most likely be quite happy.

 

[mrfocus]

I'm quite neutral on most topics in this thread, but this is the one comment that strikes me. While signs relating to public safety (like street signs) should probably be standardized, shouldn't privately owned signs and advertisements be ungoverned? In particular, advertising should be fairly free in terms of language. In a capitalist society, advertising will take care of itself. If you advertise a product in Swahili in a region where no one speaks that language, your advertisement will be ineffective. Likewise, if you advertise in English where a majority of the population has a vested interest in keeping their French roots intact, your product isn't likely to sell as well as if you had advertised in French, or at least with a bilingual message.

Again, the problem was that 50 years ago, the population was quite split between English and French. Most French people had to learn English simply to buy anything in Montréal, despite the official language being French. There was a law adopted to protect the language (Loi 101) which what is now being used to defend such things as signs on the facade of businesses. Even today, will all the efforts, in Downtown Montréal, even when the business sign is in French, there are places where no one at all speaks French.

Wouldn't you find it weird if you entered a store in Texas and no one spoke English, only Spanish. And I'm not talking about a Hispanic souvenir shop, but a clothes store that obviously targets the local audience. I'm not talking about only one employee speaking English, I mean none, at all. Not even the owner. If you have the time and trust Altavista, here is a pretty good article: http://www.vigile.net/Le-francais-pas-important

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Even today, will all the efforts, in Downtown Montréal, even when the business sign is in French, there are places where no one at all speaks French.

Why is that bad? Society is adapting. Let it happen.

 

[mrfocus]

Why is that bad? Society is adapting. Let it happen.

Because the main reason it's happening is because Immigration Canada is letting Unilingual English people immigrate to Québec, where the official language is French and only French. Would you like it if your federal government said it was OK for Unilingual Spanish speaking Mexicans to immigrate into New Mexico where the official language is English. Not illegal Immigration, perfectly legal immigration.

Does that not sound like attempts at assimilation to you?

 

[mr x]

Not as directly.

It's a yes or no question. Either you believe what you say or you don't.

 

[mr x]

Wouldn't you find it weird if you entered a store in Texas and no one spoke English, only Spanish.

If people need a xenophopic French speaking place to hang out, I'm pretty sure there are planes leaving for France on daily basis.

 

[mrfocus]

It's a yes or no question. Either you believe what you say or you don't.

Fine. Yes.

Honestly, Jack Layton doesn't care a bit about Nova Scotia, because you're what? 3% of the population. The Federal government is there to please Ontario, and sometimes BC. Then when everyone is sick of that, they vote for someone different (in this case the conservatives).