When to dry hop

[kohalajohn]

Good morning, all

I know this has been discussed, but I just viewed a Brulosophy experiment that showed that adding the hops when pitching the yeast, gave results with no sensory difference from dry hopping at full Krausen, or even at end of fermentation.

If true, this is a convenient method for dry hopping. You can avoid oxygenation, without even using a hop bong. Just toss in everying at pitch time and the keg stays sealed up to closed transfer time. If you want to add finings for the cold crash, just use @Bobby_M clever syringe, below.

It certainly makes sense to add hops when the yeast are active, as yeast metabolizes and transforms the hop ingredient, and for the better, evidently.

My initial reservation was that adding at pitch time means the hops are in there for a very long time. Perhaps unwanted grassy notes? But no, again, the Brulosophy folk say, as they often do, that it does not matter.

Thoughts?

 

[HM-2]

It depends on the volume of your dry hop. For an ounce or two in a 5g batch I'm sure it's fine, but if I'm doing a 10oz dry hop that's going to sit in the fermenter for over a week it's going to be pretty aggressively grassy.

 

[day_trippr]

Some yeasts are far better at biotransformation of hop compounds than others. If that site did not examine that then I would once again bin the results.

Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I just viewed a Brulosophy experiment that

Which one? I found at least four. Plus at least three articles and/or podcasts.

 

[worlddivides]

I started dry hopping at yeast pitch last year and found it to be very efficient. I don't do it for all beers, though (for example, I have both a sour IPA and a dry-hopped saison I brewed this year that I dry hopped after fermentation ended). I actually have a hazy IPA planned that will be the biggest dry hopping I've ever done (15g/L, which is a little over 2 ounces per gallon), and I'm wary about dry-hopping at yeast pitch because, although that would have the benefit of getting hop creep out of the way quickly and possibly helping reduce hop burn quickly, I also would be worried about the dry hops imparting a vegetal character to the beer. I have dry-hopped hazies at yeast pitch before, but they were more like 7 or 8 grams per liter. I've considered maybe dry hopping 1/3rd at yeast pitch, 1/3rd at high krausen, and 1/3rd at the end of fermentation since that would improve hop oil extraction and would reduce the time of the full amount being in contact with the beer. Still need to give it some time.

So far, though, at least with all the beers I've dry hopped at yeast pitch, I haven't noticed any vegetal character and the flavor and aroma has been as intense as if I had dry hopped after fermentation ended. This is definitely a benefit for avoiding oxygen exposure. I personally have not experienced any of "aroma being blown off" that was the main reason people argued against this dry hopping method.

 

[kohalajohn]

That makes sense. I don't see that aroma would be blown off, as the aromas are dissolved in the liquid. If they were just sitting as gases in the head space, they would disappear once you tried to pull a pint.

A couple hours ago I finished brewing an English brown ale. My hop bong is tied up with another batch, so I just added the flavour and aroma hops when pitching. No hops in the middle of the boil, no hops at flamout. Only some bittering hops at the start of the boil, and then hold everything back to add when pitching.

I'll be very interested in seeing how it works out. If it does, I may try it with the supposedly hop sensitive styles like german pilsners or new engand ipas.

Part of me is hoping it won't work out, as I just spent money on a nice hop bong. Which is a ton of fun to play with.

 

[worlddivides]

Part of me is hoping it won't work out, as I just spent money on a nice hop bong. Which is a ton of fun to play with.

Even if it works really well for you, having a hop bong will allow you to add dry hops at multiple different times without ever having to worry about oxygen. It would make my idea of adding the dry hops for a single beer at three different times much easier too.

One thing I have found (which Brulosophy also notes) is that beers dry hopped at yeast pitch tend to be clearer (or at least clearer sooner) than beers dry hopped at more conventional times. For example, with one beer, I did no fining (no gelatin, no whatever), and it was crystal clear from the very first bottle I tried. It also could be seen as a drawback in hazies, since the 7g/L dry hopped at yeast pitch hazy was hazy the entire time, but it started to clear up before the keg kicked (not crystal clear or anything. Just going from a somewhat hazy look to a more semi-translucent look).

 

[kohalajohn]

@worlddivides the clarity thing is interesting. That is the yeast doing its thing.

I was listening to a podcast, can't recall which. Was about making a hop drink. Not a zero alcohol beer, but a drink where no grain is used. Just hops and water.

The question was what effect would yeast have? You would think adding yeast would be pointless. No wort, no sugar.

But no. The batch made without yeast was muddy and not very tasty. The batch made with yeast was clear and tasted of beer and was enjoyable.

So the hops, as plants, did provide some fermentable nutrients for the yeast. The yeast interacted with the hop plant material. Perhaps there were some sugars and starches in the hops.

And the yeast did its biotransformation thing and created a tasty beer flavour. And gobbled up the proteinates that were clouding the beer.

This is an argument in favour of dry hopping at pitch time. Give that yeast time to work on the hops and do its magic.

Four hours ago I made an english brown ale. I ignored the recipe and instead of adding flavour and aroma hops in the boil and at the end of the boil, I held them all back and added them to the wort at pitch time. We will see.

 

[DuncB]

You'll make beer.

Earlier hop additions will make the beer clear sooner / more.
CBandB podcast with omega labs discusses this and it's real science not sophy experiments.

 

[DavidBD]

Yes, it makes a big difference when and how you add hops. The interplay of hops and yeast is complicated. Hop oils stick to yeast membranes. Hops added early to cold wort can introduce bacteria before the yeast has dropped the pH to a level that hinders bacteria. Also, early oxidation of beta acids in the hops can cause some harshness. Hops added late can cause hop creep, which presents its own risks. What hops components survive fermentation and how they get transformed largely depends on when the hops are added. To get the right kind of lasting haze on a NEIPA you want to add hops as fermentation is winding down, when the hop polyphenols will bind to wort proteins. To get good bio-transformation and tropical flavors you also want to add some hops early, typically in whirlpool and maybe even in first wort. Choices vary by style. Also, yes, aromas do in fact get blown off with fermentation gasses. What you smell coming out of the fermenter is leaving the beer, which might be good or bad. Also, by the way, it can be a good idea to steep some of your late addition hops in hot water before adding to drive off myrcene. Brulosophy tasters are usually people off the street who lack the training and experience to properly judge subtle flavor characteristics. It's not all that scientific despite the veneer of statistical rigor.

 

[worlddivides]

Brulosophy tasters are usually people off the street who lack the training and experience to properly judge subtle flavor characteristics. It's not all that scientific despite the veneer of statistical rigor.

Not to defend Brulosophy's methods, but they often have BJCP judges, professional brewers, homebrewers, and brewing industry people in their tests. Whether their methodology is good or not is an entirely different matter, but the thing is, you don't need training to appreciate beer. Just going off my own experience, even if you scientifically showed that a beer that was dry hopped after fermentation ended had more aroma compounds than one that was dry hopped at yeast pitch, that wouldn't change the fact that my taste buds and nasal receptors see the intensity of the hop aroma and flavor as being the same. I've never had a beer dry hopped at yeast pitch and thought "the hops are less intense than expected" or "hm, the aromas seem stripped." Usually it's the exact opposite. "Wow, that's some intense hop aroma." That said, I'm not claiming to have the training and experience of a board-certified beer sommelier.

 

[Miraculix]

I usually add something along the lines of 50-100g of sugar together with the dry hops to get rid of the oxygen.

I will try to add the hops one day into fermentation next time. That should give the yeast enough time to drop the pH.

Great thread! Thanks!

 

[kohalajohn]

Yes, the best judge is yourself.

I should try splitting a batch and in one, add hops at yeast pitch and in another add them later in full krausen. See if I can tell/prefer one over the other.

 

[bwible]

Following. I made a cold ipa earlier this year after watching videos with Kevin Davey and others - one of the key points everybody said for that was dry hop at high krausen. I fermented in a keg, did closed transfers, and did everything they said. The beer was about one of the best ipas I ever made and it won first place in our club’s July ipa challenge out of about 9 beers. That was the first time I ever added hops during fermentation. I’ve been thinking I may never dry hop any other way.

 

[Miraculix]

Following. I made a cold ipa earlier this year after watching videos with Kevin Davey and others - one of the key points everybody said for that was dry hop at high krausen. I fermented in a keg, did closed transfers, and did everything they said. The beer was about one of the best ipas I ever made and it won first place in our club’s July ipa challenge out of about 9 beers. That was the first time I ever added hops during fermentation. I’ve been thinking I may never dry hop any other way.

Man, now that you are saying it this way, I started thinking the same .

 

[kevin58]

Brulosophy tasters are usually people off the street who lack the training and experience to properly judge subtle flavor characteristics. It's not all that scientific despite the veneer of statistical rigor.

You obviously don't know how the Brulosophy tests are conducted or who their testers are.

 

[kohalajohn]

Man, now that you are saying it this way, I started thinking the same .

Me too.

It makes sense that if you want to take advantage of yeast biotransformation, and you own a hop bong, no point dry hopping at yeast pitch. For a couple days from pitch time there will be no benefit. And there is a risk of infection. IF you have a hop bong, better to wait a bit until the batch is roaring, then add the pellets to the party.

Of course if you don't have a hop bong, adding at yeast pitch will likely work fine.

 

[Miraculix]

Me too.

It makes sense that if you want to take advantage of yeast biotransformation, and you own a hop bong, no point dry hopping at yeast pitch. For a couple days from pitch time there will be no benefit. And there is a risk of infection. IF you have a hop bong, better to wait a bit until the batch is roaring, then add the pellets to the party.

Of course if you don't have a hop bong, adding at yeast pitch will likely work fine.

You can just wait till the whole thing got going and dry hop then. All the additional risks from hopping at yeast pitch are gone then, while still maintaining the benefit of not having to worry about possible oxidation.

 

[worlddivides]

I also think that if you have a hop bong, there's not a lot of incentive to dry hop at yeast pitch. The main reason I do it is to reduce the risk of introducing oxygen. And while I have mentioned that I can't tell any difference in hop aroma intensity between beers dry hopped at yeast pitch and those dry hopped after fermentation ended, the character of the hop aroma and flavor might be different depending on the specific hops and yeast as a result of biotransformation.

One thing, though, is I've never heard of anyone getting an infection from hops themselves, though I have heard of plenty of cases where infections seemed to arise from unsterilized mesh bags for holding the hops. That's not to say that it's impossible for bacteria or wild yeast to grow on pelletized hops, but it seems to be a pretty low risk.

 

[kohalajohn]

I also think that if you have a hop bong, there's not a lot of incentive to dry hop at yeast pitch. The main reason I do it is to reduce the risk of introducing oxygen. And while I have mentioned that I can't tell any difference in hop aroma intensity between beers dry hopped at yeast pitch and those dry hopped after fermentation ended, the character of the hop aroma and flavor might be different depending on the specific hops and yeast as a result of biotransformation.

One thing, though, is I've never heard of anyone getting an infection from hops themselves, though I have heard of plenty of cases where infections seemed to arise from unsterilized mesh bags for holding the hops. That's not to say that it's impossible for bacteria or wild yeast to grow on pelletized hops, but it seems to be a pretty low risk.

That point seems true. The idea that even at yeast pitch, the introduction of pellets doesn't seem to cause infection. While unsanitized items can cause infection.

I have dry hopped at yeast pitch. I had no choice, as my hop bong was tied up with another batch. I'm now doing cold side lodo, so I was actually pleased with the timing, as it seemed an elegant way to avoid subsequently oxygenating the wort.

I don't know why that is. I do know that modern yeast packs contain far more cells than back in the nineties. I can guess that even at the start, those bilions of yeast cellls immediately start gobbling up the pellets and destroying any bacteria on them.

Or perhaps hop oils have natural anti-microbial properties and microbes just can't get a foothold on them. We know this is true, as hopping was initially done to avoid spoilage.

What an interesting hobby this is.

 

[HM-2]

Hops have natural anti-microbial properties. In fact, I believe there are experiments ongoing to validate the use of hop extracts and isolates in treating things like antibiotic resistant bacteria.

 

[Miraculix]

Hops have natural anti-microbial properties. In fact, I believe there are experiments ongoing to validate the use of hop extracts and isolates in treating things like antibiotic resistant bacteria.

This, plus I think pellets get heated quite a bit during the process of making them which further reduces numbers of whatever still might be on it.

 

[kohalajohn]

Wild idea, that perhaps adding hop pellets at yeast pitch can DECREASE risk of infection. Adding hop pellets means you are adding a pile of anti-microbial agents, just at the time that the vulnerable wort needs protection the most.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

perhaps adding hop pellets at yeast pitch can DECREASE risk of infection

Back in #10, @DavidBD mentions

Hops added early to cold wort can introduce bacteria before the yeast has dropped the pH to a level that hinders bacteria.

A review of the UTs for the FlashBrewing kits from MoreBeer also mentions that concern - as well as pointing to a solution that MoreBeer uses in those kits.

 

[BrewZer]

Well, I'm fixin' to whip up a batch of Seasonal Christmas-style Dark Belgian, and it'll be my first attempt at dry hopping. I'll be throwing an ounce of Sabro into the fermenter along with the yeast, so I'll let y'all know if I have any issues doing it that way. Great discussion...

 

[fluketamer]

i am convinced that high kreusen dry hopping gives the most citrusy punch. there is a lot of research that says that biotransformation is real and produces increased citrusy compounds. however i do smell more hop aroma coming out of the fermenter when not hopping colder and later after fermentation.
this makes me wary of high kreusen dry hopping.

in my next batch i am going to do 4 oz dry hop at high kreusen and 4 before packaging.

i am def of the belief that more hops at different times adds to the flavor and aroma complexity. so i feel i get more flavor doing 5 min additions, flame out additions WP additions. and dry hopping then just adding everything in the dry hop.

i have frequently kegged hopped with very good results also. i have an ipa now with an ounce of cascade in the keg thats been in there for a month. that just keeps getting better as the keg draws.