When to add sparge water acid

[BeerFst]

I'm using Brun' water for the first time with filtered tap water. I'll be making the rocky raccoon honey lager using BIAM. According to the spreadsheet I don't add anything to the mash water but I need to add some acid to the sparge water. For sparge I'm just heating the water and pouring over the grains. The amount of phosphoric acid to add to sparge is low - 1/2 tsp

What would be the reason for adding acid to the sparge and not the mash water?

edit to add - i'm doing small batches 2.5 gallons

this is my water profile
pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 216
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.36
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.8 / 2.9

ppm

Sodium, Na 27
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 25.8
Magnesium, Mg 3
Total Hardness, CaCO3 78
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 8
Chloride, Cl 49
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 64
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 53
Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

i think you have an error somewhere in your sheet. Assuming I found the correct recipe, it’s all Pilsner malt with a lot of honey added at flameout. My own water isn’t terribly different than yours (on Long Island) and a recent Pilsner I did required several ml of 88% lactic to get to 5.3. I don’t see how you don’t need any

also, not that it’s part of the problem or question here but make sure you apply the multipliers on the water input sheet based on how the values have been reported. For instance the s04-s needs to be multiplied by a factor to get the actual sulfate content. I missed this the first time I played with brunwater (thanks Martin). Wasn’t a huge impact numbers wise in the end, but at least I got rid of the anions/cations mismatch error

Edit: sorry silver didn’t mean to quote you in my reply

 

[Brian66]

BeerFst - that's the correct recipe. I make small batches so I cut that in half and also added vienna malt. So 3 lbs Pilsner, 1 lb Vienna. If I'm doing the spreadsheet correctly my mash ph should have been under 6 (5.98). I was a little afraid to add too much phosphoric acid. I did do the multipliers. Maybe because I'm doing a small batch I still came in under 6?

 

[BeerFst]

BeerFst - that's the correct recipe. I make small batches so I cut that in half and also added vienna malt. So 3 lbs Pilsner, 1 lb Vienna. If I'm doing the spreadsheet correctly my mash ph should have been under 6 (5.98). I was a little afraid to add too much phosphoric acid. I did do the multipliers. Maybe because I'm doing a small batch I still came in under 6?

Mash pH should be 5.3-5.5. The 6 noted earlier is just for sparge water. Are you using brunwater or something else? Brunwater makes the various goals very clear with color coded results

 

[Brian66]

It's Brunwater. I understand now - 6 just for sparge and mid 5's which is color coded. So when I put in 4 for the acid addition it puts the mash PH in the right range. That's 4ml per gallon so it would be 12 since I mash with 3 gallons. so about 2.5 tsp of phosphoric acid. Thanks for the help!

 

[BeerFst]

It's Brunwater. I understand now - 6 just for sparge and mid 5's which is color coded. So when I put in 4 for the acid addition it puts the mash PH in the right range. That's 4ml per gallon so it would be 12 since I mash with 3 gallons. so about 2.5 tsp of phosphoric acid. Thanks for the help!

FYI they little “syringes” for dosing kids pain meds are great for measuring 1-5ml. with two toddlers I have an abundance of them

 

[Brian66]

FYI they little “syringes” for dosing kids pain meds are great for measuring 1-5ml. with two toddlers I have an abundance of them

Thanks for the tip!

 

[eric19312]

i think you have an error somewhere in your sheet. Assuming I found the correct recipe, it’s all Pilsner malt with a lot of honey added at flameout. My own water isn’t terribly different than yours (on Long Island) and a recent Pilsner I did required several ml of 88% lactic to get to 5.3. I don’t see how you don’t need any

also, not that it’s part of the problem or question here but make sure you apply the multipliers on the water input sheet based on how the values have been reported. For instance the s04-s needs to be multiplied by a factor to get the actual sulfate content. I missed this the first time I played with brunwater (thanks Martin). Wasn’t a huge impact numbers wise in the end, but at least I got rid of the anions/cations mismatch error

Edit: sorry silver didn’t mean to quote you in my reply

Hey @BeerFst are you using the suffolk county water authority report or did you get your water tested? If using the water authority report what factors did you need to apply to get the correct treatment in Bru'n water?

 

[BeerFst]

Hey @BeerFst are you using the suffolk county water authority report or did you get your water tested? If using the water authority report what factors did you need to apply to get the correct treatment in Bru'n water?

I got mine tested with Ward Labs last year, but when I first started I did use the SCWA report. I'm in zone 1 and just used the average reported values. there is considerable range in some of them, but hundreds of tests taken, so I was comfortable with the averages. Also as it turned out they were very close to my actual report. Reviewing the spreadsheet now, version 1.18a (free version, this may not be the latest free version), there is a factor of 3 if S04 is reported as SO4-S, and another factor of 4.43 for Nitrate if reported as NO3-N. I know that Ward at least reports as SO4-S, but I don't recall that being a problem for SCWA. Then again, I missed the factors when I first input my ward report, so perhaps I did similarly back then, and was just ignorant.

For your reference, my current water report I use (with factors already applied)

Ca 26.9
Mg 4
Na 20
HCO3 67
CO3 .2
SO4 15
CL 28

K 1
FE 0
NO3 8
NO2 0
F 0

pH 7.9
Total Alkalinity 55

the average values from the SCWA report I was using before are

Ca 12.9
Mg 1.6
Na 7.4
HCO3 46.7
CO3 0
SO4 8.1
CL 17.4

K .6
FE 0.2
NO3 1.4
NO2 0
F 0

pH 7.2
Total Alkalinity 38.3

 

[eric19312]

Thanks I'm zone 14. Wow you really do have hundreds of tests our averages are based on 18 tests. I realized after I posted that zone 14 average SO4 is "not detected" so multiplier not an issue.

I appreciate the detail in the published water report especially the number of tests and the ranges. It looks like your actuals from the Ward report fall in the ranges reported for zone 1. I'm curious why you are using the Ward values given that is a single point in time test vs the water authority's hundreds of tests every year?

To me the dilemma is we have really pretty good average water for brewing just about any style of beer (with modest mineral additions) but occasionally (seasonally?) it might drift away from that average. Given good tap water I can't justify installing an RO system so am managing with campden (because Suffolk occasionally uses chlorine) and measuring pH with a meter. If my pH is a lot different than expected I might make an adjustment in the mash tun but I won't adjust the base recipe unless same recipe misses the target multiple times.

I've also considered getting one of those kits from Lamott or Smart Brew to allow brew day water testing but they look pretty expensive and not sure I need another thing to add to my already pretty long brew day. I'm probably trying to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[BeerFst]

Thanks I'm zone 14. Wow you really do have hundreds of tests our averages are based on 18 tests. I realized after I posted that zone 14 average SO4 is "not detected" so multiplier not an issue.

I appreciate the detail in the published water report especially the number of tests and the ranges. It looks like your actuals from the Ward report fall in the ranges reported for zone 1. I'm curious why you are using the Ward values given that is a single point in time test vs the water authority's hundreds of tests every year?

To me the dilemma is we have really pretty good average water for brewing just about any style of beer (with modest mineral additions) but occasionally (seasonally?) it might drift away from that average. Given good tap water I can't justify installing an RO system so am managing with campden (because Suffolk occasionally uses chlorine) and measuring pH with a meter. If my pH is a lot different than expected I might make an adjustment in the mash tun but I won't adjust the base recipe unless same recipe misses the target multiple times.

I've also considered getting one of those kits from Lamott or Smart Brew to allow brew day water testing but they look pretty expensive and not sure I need another thing to add to my already pretty long brew day. I'm probably trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Yes, relying on my one test is a risk, and I could send out multiple samples over the course of the year, but in the end I haven't found that necessary. If i was seeing lots of variability in my beers, or some unsolved "issue" i might point to the water. I drink tap regularly and go by the "if it taste's good, it's good" mentality. I too, add Campden, but do not actually validate my mash pH. I fully understand that without doing so, may not mean my pH targets in the spreadsheet are correct. I do see some variation in my efficiency, with several previous brews undershooting target. more than a year ago i hit my max efficiency >80%, but since then have been hovering around 70%. my recipes used to use 75% as a baseline, but now i have dropped to 70%. However I got over 70 on a stout last week. In any case, a new report might be warranted, but considering the difference between my actual tap water, and the SCWA report, however small, I would rather use the data specific to my tap.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The higher the OG you shoot for (I.E., the bigger the beer), the lower your efficiency will be, provided that all else is equal.

 

[eric19312]

Yes, relying on my one test is a risk, and I could send out multiple samples over the course of the year, but in the end I haven't found that necessary. If i was seeing lots of variability in my beers, or some unsolved "issue" i might point to the water. I drink tap regularly and go by the "if it taste's good, it's good" mentality. I too, add Campden, but do not actually validate my mash pH. I fully understand that without doing so, may not mean my pH targets in the spreadsheet are correct. I do see some variation in my efficiency, with several previous brews undershooting target. more than a year ago i hit my max efficiency >80%, but since then have been hovering around 70%. my recipes used to use 75% as a baseline, but now i have dropped to 70%. However I got over 70 on a stout last week. In any case, a new report might be warranted, but considering the difference between my actual tap water, and the SCWA report, however small, I would rather use the data specific to my tap.

I've always interpreted the range mentioned in the SCWA report to be the low, high and average of multiple tests conducted at a small number of testing locations during the course of the year. My zone is fed by 5 wells but they may not pump from all five all year or may change the percentages that make up the supply. I am thinking that the water at my tap varies over the course of the year in line with the rest of my zone.

During calendar year 2019 in my distribution zone calcium ranged from 2.7 to 15.7 with average of 6.7 mg/L. In calendar year 2018 the range was 3.9 to 15.0 with average 7.9 mg/L. If I were to get a Ward report done and it said my calcium was 14 mg/L I'd guess the test was corresponding with water collected when calcium is at or near the annual peak in my zone. This assumption could be wrong for sure. Perhaps my house is not typical for the zone and the water at my tap is not similar to water at my neighbor's house. But I'd want multiple tests to confirm it is different - not sure how many but 6, one every other month, might be a good starting point. Without that I'm thinking it makes more sense to just use the published average from previous year.

 

[BeerFst]

I've always interpreted the range mentioned in the SCWA report to be the low, high and average of multiple tests conducted at a small number of testing locations during the course of the year. My zone is fed by 5 wells but they may not pump from all five all year or may change the percentages that make up the supply. I am thinking that the water at my tap varies over the course of the year in line with the rest of my zone.

During calendar year 2019 in my distribution zone calcium ranged from 2.7 to 15.7 with average of 6.7 mg/L. In calendar year 2018 the range was 3.9 to 15.0 with average 7.9 mg/L. If I were to get a Ward report done and it said my calcium was 14 mg/L I'd guess the test was corresponding with water collected when calcium is at or near the annual peak in my zone. This assumption could be wrong for sure. Perhaps my house is not typical for the zone and the water at my tap is not similar to water at my neighbor's house. But I'd want multiple tests to confirm it is different - not sure how many but 6, one every other month, might be a good starting point. Without that I'm thinking it makes more sense to just use the published average from previous year.

I think you're 100% correct on all above, but at 45 bucks per test, if I was going to do these quarterly or similar, I would just buy an RO system, or buy 10 gallons at a time from the store. The difference, particularly with pH on the reported average I was using and my actual was too far. granted if I had a pH meter i could just measure myself before starting. I'm happy with my ability to influence the brewing water, however imperfect it is.

 

[DrStrange]

So I have a related question... I've had my well water tested a couple of times to deal with a pump issue and before moving to this home I had been doing extract kits/partial mash on city water so never bothered to test it. Now that I'm making the jump to all grain with an3v eBrewing setup, I want to improve my techniques.

The test doesn't list total alkalinity but if I'm doing the math right is seems to be between 1 and 2
Here's the results:
Ca <1 mg/L
Hardness (CaCO3) <2 mg/L
Iron 0.063 mg/L
Magnesium <1 mg/L
Manganese <0.01 mg/L
Sodium 93.2 mg/L
Nitrite <0.05 mg/L
Chloride 15 mg/L
Fluoride <0.2 mg/L
Nitrate <0.02 mg/L
pH 7.47
Note that this is with a particle filter, UVC filter and whole house water softener (uses the iron binding salt tablets). And I'm presuming testing for nitrates/nitrites is because lots of farms near by

So aside from adding a small amount of lactic acid to the sparge water (BrewFather seems to indicate <1ml for 5gal) in the HTL is there anything else I should add before brewing?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@DrStrange, that looks a lot like water softener water. A Cation/Anion balance computation indicates that your Alkalinity (as CaCO3) could be as high as about an upper limit of ~181.5 ppm. No reliable way to tell without knowing the Sulfate (SO4--) ion ppm's. It would also help to know Potassium ion ppm's. Water softeners do not reduce Alkalinity. It is not likely for your Alkalinity to be 1 to 2 ppm. Far more likely to be well above that. If asked to purely make a wild guess, I'd guess ~152 ppm.

 

[Beenym88]

This may not be an answer people are looking for but to keep it simple I’m going to put it out there. First I have to ask have you been satisfied with your beer? If so your water is fine. Second water chemistry enhances the flavor but is not the end all be all a bad recipe will still be bad. I used bottled spring water for my first 20 or so brews never had an issue but I wanted to get more involved in the process so I got my water tested it’s well water very high in salt and would cut it with distilled. I ended up having to use so much distilled water that now I just by distilled and create a water profile. If you use distilled treat your mash with salts and acid if needed and sparge with just salts. Or just keep doing what your doing if you like your beer.

 

[eric19312]

So I have a related question... I've had my well water tested a couple of times to deal with a pump issue and before moving to this home I had been doing extract kits/partial mash on city water so never bothered to test it. Now that I'm making the jump to all grain with an3v eBrewing setup, I want to improve my techniques.

The test doesn't list total alkalinity but if I'm doing the math right is seems to be between 1 and 2
Here's the results:
Ca <1 mg/L
Hardness (CaCO3) <2 mg/L
Iron 0.063 mg/L
Magnesium <1 mg/L
Manganese <0.01 mg/L
Sodium 93.2 mg/L
Nitrite <0.05 mg/L
Chloride 15 mg/L
Fluoride <0.2 mg/L
Nitrate <0.02 mg/L
pH 7.47
Note that this is with a particle filter, UVC filter and whole house water softener (uses the iron binding salt tablets). And I'm presuming testing for nitrates/nitrites is because lots of farms near by

So aside from adding a small amount of lactic acid to the sparge water (BrewFather seems to indicate <1ml for 5gal) in the HTL is there anything else I should add before brewing?

I would consider bypassing the whole house water softener for my brewing water. Then test the unsoftened water and come up with brewing strategy. RO may be way to go or perhaps mixing some of the softened water and unsoftened water will get you to a good place. Lots of good information here: General 5 | Bru'n Water

 

[DrStrange]

@DrStrange, that looks a lot like water softener water. A Cation/Anion balance computation indicates that your Alkalinity (as CaCO3) could be as high as about an upper limit of ~181.5 ppm. No reliable way to tell without knowing the Sulfate (SO4--) ion ppm's. It would also help to know Potassium ion ppm's. Water softeners do not reduce Alkalinity. It is not likely for your Alkalinity to be 1 to 2 ppm. Far more likely to be well above that. If asked to purely make a wild guess, I'd guess ~152 ppm.

ok thanks, yes the three different reports didnt list Sulfate at all. I figured something was off as way to low

I would consider bypassing the whole house water softener for my brewing water. Then test the unsoftened water and come up with brewing strategy. RO may be way to go or perhaps mixing some of the softened water and unsoftened water will get you to a good place. Lots of good information here: General 5 | Bru'n Water

Thanks Eric, I've looked at the fittings and doesnt seem an easy way to bypass it without some creative plumbing.

This may not be an answer people are looking for but to keep it simple I’m going to put it out there. First I have to ask have you been satisfied with your beer? If so your water is fine. Second water chemistry enhances the flavor but is not the end all be all a bad recipe will still be bad. I used bottled spring water for my first 20 or so brews never had an issue but I wanted to get more involved in the process so I got my water tested it’s well water very high in salt and would cut it with distilled. I ended up having to use so much distilled water that now I just by distilled and create a water profile. If you use distilled treat your mash with salts and acid if needed and sparge with just salts. Or just keep doing what your doing if you like your beer.

thanks Beenym - so far 2 batches at the new house - a pumpkin and a belgian tripel - both were good but the belgian has a bit too much banana overtones, but I dont think that is the water, but not having a good temperature control set up (new rig will so hopefully will eliminate that issue)
I'm definitely a firm believer in the KISS theory

 

[Beenym88]

Temperature control is in my opinion the most Important factor besides good cleaning and sanitation. If your beer gets too warm it will ruin the best recipie and water profile in the world. The way I do it is is with cool sticks and ice water. It’s fairly inexpensive but with all things in this hobby I always find a way to keeps spending money.