When to add DME to your boil??

[Eric Wann]

I am brewing a Belgian Tripel tomorrow and am wondering what time in the boil I should add my DME. The recipe says to add it at the beginning, but I have had some bad experiences boilng DME too long. Off color, and off flavors. Any suggestions? Ingredients below.


Ingredients:
3.3 lbs. Pilsen Light LME
6 lbs. Pilsen DME
1 lb. Light Candi Sugar

4 oz. Specialty Grains

1 oz. Stryian Golding
.5 oz. Saaz

White Labs WLP530

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Any suggestions?

OG of around 85?

Is the recipe also a "partial boil" recipe (2.5 gal boil for a 5.0 gal batch)? Concentrated boils of extract for longer periods of time apparently lead to "unexpected" / off flavors.

Are you brewing with tap water or with RO/distilled water?

It's often recommended to add most (50 to 75%) of the DME/LME towards the end of boil (often as late as flame-out). This will require adjusting the amount of hops used as one gets better utilization when the OG is lower.

A shorter boil (30 min or 15 min) can help avoid off colors and flavors that can come from longer boils. This will require adjusting the amount of hops uses as shorter boils result in hop lower utilization.

One approach would be to target an OG of around 20 for the boil using DME, then add the rest of the DME/LME at flame-out (to ensure pasteurization). Recipe software will help with the DME volumes and the hop additions.

 

[davidabcd]

I would do 3#-4# of DME at the beginning and save the rest for 10 min left in the boil. Interestingly, I haven't had trouble with color or flavor from a long DME but have had that (possibly) with LME.
Edit: after some thought, if you're more comfortable using LME early, just use 3# of that early instead. I don't think it's going to make much difference. I did an all-DME Belgian that had 9# or more. I added about 3# to start. It came out very light in color and looks like a Duvel. I'll have to see how the flavor checks out.

 

[Dgallo]

Dme is always darker than grains but you can add it with 5 mins left if you care too. I would assume the off flavor actually came from yeast issues or oxidation.

 

[mongoose33]

When and how do you add the candi sugar? That might be the source of the color and flavor issues.

 

[davidabcd]

When and how do you add the candi sugar?

When and how should you? I make mostly Belgians. Thanks. I've been adding at the beginning of the boil for the most part.

 

[mongoose33]

When and how should you? I make mostly Belgians. Thanks. I've been adding at the beginning of the boil for the most part.

Qualifier: I don't do Belgians, and I don't brew extract, though I did when I started.

But if I were adding candi sugar, I'd be very concerned about two things: getting it mixed in well, and not allowing it to scorch on the bottom of the kettle as you're heating to a boil.

People who use liquid malt extract in brewing know this: when it's added to the boil kettle, it tends to sink to the bottom where, if the heat is high, it can scorch. When you pour in the candi sugar, where does it go? Does it simply collect on the bottom of the kettle where it's being carmelized and scorched?

If it were me, I'd add that sugar late; it's mostly just a flavor and fermentable thing, doesn't need to be boiled for all that long. When I added it, I'd turn off the heat and make sure it was fully incorporated before returning the kettle to heating.

******

There's nothing necessarily problematic with boiling DME for an hour, but the same conditions obtain: you want it well mixed before you start hitting the kettle with lots of heat. I do all-grain; when I transfer the wort to the kettle, at that point, what I have in my kettle is essentially the same as what you have. The process of boiling can cause the wort to darken a bit, and that's not uncommon with DME. Especially with your Belgian, I'd be more focused on the flavor at this point than the color.

 

[Kickass]

When and how should you? I make mostly Belgians. Thanks. I've been adding at the beginning of the boil for the most part.

I never boil my candi syrup. Granted, I use syrup, not hard candi. In fact, I add it as fermentation just starts slowing. I don’t like presenting all those simple sugars too early in fermentation. The thought is that the yeast favors them and have the potential to give up a little sooner on the more complex sugar. This might be entirely misguided and anecdotal but it’s worked for me.

 

[davidabcd]

@mongoose33 @Kickass

I've been waffling between table sugar, homemade syrup and buying the product. I haven't seen a great deal of difference but I'm probably leaning toward homemade.

I was concerned that adding the sugar early would affect the flavor but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm pretty set on not opening the fermenter until the third week is up but the idea of adding later in fermentation is similar to a Belgian recipe I'm familiar with.
Thanks.

 

[Eric Wann]

OG of around 85?

Is the recipe also a "partial boil" recipe (2.5 gal boil for a 5.0 gal batch)? Concentrated boils of extract for longer periods of time apparently lead to "unexpected" / off flavors.

Are you brewing with tap water or with RO/distilled water?

It's often recommended to add most (50 to 75%) of the DME/LME towards the end of boil (often as late as flame-out). This will require adjusting the amount of hops used as one gets better utilization when the OG is lower.

A shorter boil (30 min or 15 min) can help avoid off colors and flavors that can come from longer boils. This will require adjusting the amount of hops uses as shorter boils result in hop lower utilization.

One approach would be to target an OG of around 20 for the boil using DME, then add the rest of the DME/LME at flame-out (to ensure pasteurization). Recipe software will help with the DME volumes and the hop additions.

Original gravity of 83-86

It is a partial boil recipe. 2.5 gallon.

I brew with Crystal Geyser bottled water.

I'm leaning more towards adding the extracts later in the boil, but I definitely haven't looked into how to adjust the hops during the boil for that.

 

[Eric Wann]

I would do 3#-4# of DME at the beginning and save the rest for 10 min left in the boil. Interestingly, I haven't had trouble with color or flavor from a long DME but have had that (possibly) with LME.
Edit: after some thought, if you're more comfortable using LME early, just use 3# of that early instead. I don't think it's going to make much difference. I did an all-DME Belgian that had 9# or more. I added about 3# to start. It came out very light in color and looks like a Duvel. I'll have to see how the flavor checks out.

I think I will start with the LME, then add my 6 lbs. of DME towards the end. I am definitely looking for something more golden like a duvel.

 

[Eric Wann]

Dme is always darker than grains but you can add it with 5 mins left if you care too. I would assume the off flavor actually came from yeast issues or oxidation.

I may be trying this with the DME. The guy at the homebrew shop told me that's a good time to add the candy sugar too.

 

[Eric Wann]

Qualifier: I don't do Belgians, and I don't brew extract, though I did when I started.

But if I were adding candi sugar, I'd be very concerned about two things: getting it mixed in well, and not allowing it to scorch on the bottom of the kettle as you're heating to a boil.

People who use liquid malt extract in brewing know this: when it's added to the boil kettle, it tends to sink to the bottom where, if the heat is high, it can scorch. When you pour in the candi sugar, where does it go? Does it simply collect on the bottom of the kettle where it's being carmelized and scorched?

If it were me, I'd add that sugar late; it's mostly just a flavor and fermentable thing, doesn't need to be boiled for all that long. When I added it, I'd turn off the heat and make sure it was fully incorporated before returning the kettle to heating.

******

There's nothing necessarily problematic with boiling DME for an hour, but the same conditions obtain: you want it well mixed before you start hitting the kettle with lots of heat. I do all-grain; when I transfer the wort to the kettle, at that point, what I have in my kettle is essentially the same as what you have. The process of boiling can cause the wort to darken a bit, and that's not uncommon with DME. Especially with your Belgian, I'd be more focused on the flavor at this point than the color.

Definitely cut the flame when I am adding in all of my LME/DME/Sugar additions. I do slow adds and stir constantly.

You aren't wrong. A beer can look amazing and taste awful. Flavor is certainly the top priority here. Still if I can get something in the 4-7 SRM range, that would be ideal for style. Thanks!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm leaning more towards adding the extracts later in the boil, but I definitely haven't looked into how to adjust the hops during the boil for that.

Concentrated boils (in this case SG 170), then diluting (in this case back to OG 85) is generally not regarded as a good practice when brewing with extract - as it can result in "unexpected" or "off" flavors.

If you are going to continue brewing with "partial boils" (2.5 gal boil for a 5.0 gal batch), How To Brew, 4e is a good resource. Tips and Tricks for Brewing Excellent Extract Beers at Home is also a good resource.

 

[Eric Wann]

Concentrated boils (in this case SG 170), then diluting (in this case back to OG 85) is generally not regarded as a good practice when brewing with extract - as it can result in "unexpected" or "off" flavors.

If you are going to continue brewing with "partial boils" (2.5 gal boil for a 5.0 gal batch), How To Brew, 4e is a good resource. Tips and Tricks for Brewing Excellent Extract Beers at Home is also a good resource.

Just referenced the "extract late" method from How to Brew. So its about half the extract for half the water during boil. Then at flame out add the rest and let pasteurize for 10-15. That may be the ticket. THANK YOU

 

[Yooper]

I think I will start with the LME, then add my 6 lbs. of DME towards the end. I am definitely looking for something more golden like a duvel.

Just referenced the "extract late" method from How to Brew. So its about half the extract for half the water during boil. Then at flame out add the rest and let pasteurize for 10-15. That may be the ticket. THANK YOU

I'd use 1 pound of DME for every gallon of water in the boil up front (not half of the extract- that's a lot of extract to boil for 60 minutes), then add the rest of the DME and LME at flame out. It doesn't need to sit and pasteurize for 15 minutes.

I make cheese and it is pasteurized and ready to drink even for immuno-compromised people in 30 seconds at 160 degrees. Certainly extract (and candi sugar) will be pasteurized at a boil temperature at flame out.

Then chill right away- you don't want the hops to provide more bitterness from a boiling steep nor more darkening from the extract sitting at boiling temperatures.

 

[Eric Wann]

I'd use 1 pound of DME for every gallon of water in the boil up front (not half of the extract- that's a lot of extract to boil for 60 minutes), then add the rest of the DME and LME at flame out. It doesn't need to sit and pasteurize for 15 minutes.

I make cheese and it is pasteurized and ready to drink even for immuno-compromised people in 30 seconds at 160 degrees. Certainly extract (and candi sugar) will be pasteurized at a boil temperature at flame out.

Then chill right away- you don't want the hops to provide more bitterness from a boiling steep nor more darkening from the extract sitting at boiling temperatures.

It is too late for this batch to limit the amount of extract I am boiling, but I can certainly mix in the rest at flame out and chill right away. Thanks yooper!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Then at flame out add the rest and let pasteurize for 10-15. That may be the ticket.

Take a look at step 8 (p 14 in the book) again. For the specific recipe in chapter 1, most of the 15 minutes is for a "hop stand". Like @Yopper mentioned, (which is also noted in the book), pasteuriztion of the late extract addition will occur very quickly when it's added flame-out.

 

[Eric Wann]

Original Gravity around 1.084. Nowhere near the 7 SRM I was looking for.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Nowhere near the 7 SRM I was looking for.

Looks like there's trub floating in the hydrometer tube. If so, it's likely to be a little early to make any 'final' SRM measurements.

What did you use to estimate SRM?

 

[Eric Wann]

Looks like there's trub floating in the hydrometer tube. If so, it's likely to be a little early to make any 'final' SRM measurements.

What did you use to estimate SRM?

This is the first time I have added DME so late in the process. so there is some definite trub in the hydro tube. I am only using eyes and the SRM scale reference inside the How to Brew book.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Nowhere near the 7 SRM I was looking for.

How did you get 7 for the estimated SRM?

 

[Eric Wann]

How did you get 7 for the estimated SRM?

Just an approximation based on what other beers in this style I drink look like.

 

[Bubbles2]

I'm on batch 35 with DME FWIW, always use the same yeast and water. Only deviations are the grain steep/boil of usually 2lbs for flavor and pulled at 155 after a 20 min hold there. (not needed but I got time) The only time I see color change is the Hop addition and the grain be it rye or wheat and or 2row. FWIW.
I think the DME is already to go for yeast to attenuate. You could put it all in the last 5 to rid of any unwanted hitchhikers in theory. I do not see how a 212ºf boil at sea level for 60 minutes would do any favors to a simple sugar chain, opposed to 150-160º would do as it does with malted grain.
I do not know why the instructions on kits call for a 60 min boil of DME... for 212ºf nothing is going on but death of everything. I do realize that the Hops release their oils and the longer the boil the more bitters are released. So on that line of thought the boil is really for your Hops to marry with your sugar.
I've even done batches at 185ºf where death occurs and have had positive results. Classic example would be a yeast starter where you boil DME for 5 min or 15 min to create a starter.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm on batch 35 with DME FWIW, always use the same yeast and water. Only deviations are the grain steep/boil of usually 2lbs for flavor and pulled at 155 after a 20 min hold there. (not needed but I got time) The only time I see color change is the Hop addition and the grain be it rye or wheat and or 2row. FWIW.

It may be that DME and LME are very different products when it comes to shipping and storage. I mention this article occasionally.

I think the DME is already to go for yeast to attenuate. You could put it all in the last 5 to rid of any unwanted hitchhikers in theory. I do not see how a 212ºf boil at sea level for 60 minutes would do any favors to a simple sugar chain, opposed to 150-160º would do as it does with malted grain.

Good point. Examples of processes that use DME/LME with shorter boils: "15 Minute Pale Ale" (2013), BBRs "Hop Sampler" (2017), HBT's "No-Boil Recipes! New for 2019!", @Steveruch 's July 2019 Zymurgy article & recipe.

 

[Bubbles2]

It may be that DME and LME are very different products when it comes to shipping and storage. I mention this article occasionally.



Good point. Examples of processes that use DME/LME with shorter boils: "15 Minute Pale Ale" (2013), BBRs "Hop Sampler" (2017), HBT's "No-Boil Recipes! New for 2019!", @Steveruch 's July 2019 Zymurgy article & recipe.

Here Amigo,
2row
light dme
2 oz hops
185º
60 minute

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Recipe swap!

Here Amigo,
2row
light dme
2 oz hops
185º
60 minute

I've brewed this periodically for the last 18 months or so. For a one gallon batch:

• 1 lb light DME
• 1 oz Citra Hops
• 2.5 grams US-05

For a NE-APA-ish beer: heat water to 180*F, add hops and DME, steep at 180* F for 20 minutes, chill

For a West Coast APA-ish beer: bring water to boil, add hops and DME, remove from heat, let stand for 20 minutes, chill.

Want an IPA-ish beer? reduce water to 3/4 gallons or add 2 oz sugar.

 

[Bubbles2]

Recipe swap!



I've brewed this periodically for the last 18 months or so. For a one gallon batch:

• 1 lb light DME
• 1 oz Citra Hops
• 2.5 grams US-05

For a NE-APA-ish beer: heat water to 180*F, add hops and DME, steep at 180* F for 20 minutes, chill

For a West Coast APA-ish beer: bring water to boil, add hops and DME, remove from heat, let stand for 20 minutes, chill.

Want an IPA-ish beer? reduce water to 3/4 gallons or add 2 oz sugar.

Thanks, I was not trying to push a recipe, I was showing you color as that was your orig thread or part there of.
That one started at 1052 and is finished at 1010 with a 4.5 ph which I brought up to 5. ph after attenuation/ferment via Potassium Bicarb 2 tsp to 5 gal raised it .5
The color is good and the beer will clear better once chilled and settled from the transfer. 1st pint goes in a jar for marinade later.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I was showing you color

Thanks.

I remain curious when people say they brew with extract (dme? lme?) and don't get the color that they expect. Is it a bad estimate? unrealistic expectations? older (or poorly handled) liquid extract? boiling too hard or too long? some other factor?

Currently, when I brew extract+steep, it's exclusively with DME. I have a 'custom' process to estimate SRM - and the final beer SRM is 'close enough' to the estimate / expectation. Nothing magical in what I do - just the application of information from a couple of forum / blog posts across "space and time".