What's with all the random German vocab in the homebrewing world?

[TheRussMeister]

Was?! Warum ist die Probleme mit dem deutschen Worte? Die deutsche Sprache ist sehr genau, veil mehr als das Englisch. Und diese Worter enstand vom die deutschen Worter.

Es tut mir lied, für meinen Sprachlehre. Ich sprache kein Deutsche für vielen Jahren.

 

[Cathedral]

As you indicate in your previous post, counting words is ultimately an exercise in definitions as much as anything else. If you include proper names, for example, the number becomes very high very quickly. Morphology also makes the issue thorny; are 'brew' and 'brewing' different words, for example? By their own particular metrics, the OED puts the number of distinct English words somewhere near 600k, though many of those are very archaic.

However, the idea that English has a lexicon five times the size of the next largest language is hard to justify. Though English has expanded its reach with aggressive borrowing, so have many other languages.

"brewing" is just a conjugation of the verb "(to) brew" and does not, in a linguistic sense, justify an original word. Just like in latin, were every verb has at least five different conjugations; if you were to include participles than each verb would spawn at least 15 other "words."

eg:
Brew (v): creating beer
Brew
Brewing
Brewed
Will Brew
Will have Brewed
Brew (n): beer, synonym.

To the dictionary (Random House) it is just one word: Brew

And, OP, the word "brew" comes from the old German "brauen."

 

[osagedr]

Deutsch, Deutsch, Deutsch!

******.

 

[Gerhard]

I grew up in St. Paul, MN and the old time brewers told me that German was spoken in the breweries up to the 1950's.

 

[Lac]

German is chock full of great, specific words...like schadenfreude
I dunno, but for what its worth I kinda like the borrowed words. I think I'm kind of used to it though growing up around chemists and such in my family, where german words are used all the time for things where english words would have worked.
Plus, german just sounds pretty cool.

 

[MalFet]

"brewing" is just a conjugation of the verb "(to) brew" and does not, in a linguistic sense, justify an original word.

If you want to get technical (and who doesn't! ):

'brew (v)' -> 'brewing (n)' is a derivation rather than a conjugation because it makes the word change functional categories (from verb to noun). By convention, linguists generally treat derived forms as independent words, and most comprehensive dictionaries include a separate entry for 'brewing'.

But, that was just meant as a simple example. Even if you feel strongly one way or the other about -ing, most of a language's words are found in a vast, sticky grey area. Here's the list of what's been added to the OED this last December:

Aggadah, akhund, apastron, Aquarid, base case, bicyclic, bicycling, bicycloannulation, black-fronted, busgirl, cane corso, Captcha, captival, carpsucker, chrono-, chronotropic, chronotropism, chronotropy, cold sore, cycloheptane, Darwinic, Entlebucher, FLOP, gingiva, golficé, ice giant, ice queen, ice time, ice wine, ice-cool, icecrete, iced tea, Iceni, infectability, infectable, infectee, infectibility, ironice, kalua, kalua, key code, key working, keyboarder, kinara, leproid, logice, Long Island ice tea, Long Island iced tea, micropig, ocicat, Old Icelandic, quod erat demonstrandum, savaging, savanilla, savanilla, savantism, savasana, savoured | savored, senioritis, small cap, small drink, small grain, smaller, smallie, snowcrete, stat., state bank, state function, state of matter, state of war, state secretary, state-dependent, statement, staticize, staticizer, statico-, statual, statue, statued, stibarsen, xolo, xoloitzcuintli

Most of these are either words from other languages or words that have been combined from other words, but the OED's linguists decided they justified wordhood because their meanings could not be deduced purely from their parts. To know what an "ice wine" is, for example, you need to know something more than just what "ice" means and what "wine" means. Conversely, loan words are never simple. Nepali, for example, has a word 'trajedi', which clearly comes from English, except it means only and exactly "a particularly bad breakup". Is that then an English word? A Nepali word? Who the heck knows?!?

Anyway, apologies that this is

 

[lumpher]

Was?! Warum ist die Probleme mit dem deutschen Worte? Die deutsche Sprache ist sehr genau, veil mehr als das Englisch. Und diese Worter enstand vom die deutschen Worter.

Es tut mir lied, für meinen Sprachlehre. Ich sprache kein Deutsche für vielen Jahren.

dude, use another translation site/program. the german language uses "wie" instead of "was" for "what". and "why is the problems?" "Ich habe keine deutsche sprachen fur vielen jahre"...the overall structure...

 

[Yooper]

Was?! Warum ist die Probleme mit dem deutschen Worte? Die deutsche Sprache ist sehr genau, veil mehr als das Englisch. Und diese Worter enstand vom die deutschen Worter.

Es tut mir lied, für meinen Sprachlehre. Ich sprache kein Deutsche für vielen Jahren.

My German must be slipping, but I'm having trouble with this. I don't quite understand. I haven't lived in Germany since 1983, so maybe I've forgotten the language?

 

[Pilgarlic]

Another thread ends in tatters.

 

[MalFet]

Another thread ends in tatters.

Bah. If you want strictly disciplined vectors of information, there are many professionally edited books that I'm sure people will be glad to recommend. As for this thread, the OP stated that the question was resolved. If he wants to bring it back on topic, I'm sure everyone will oblige him.

 

[latium]

As an amateur word nerd, this really tickles my fancy.

Just for fun, I plugged a few into Google Translate:

vorlauf => forerun
lauter => pure
krausen => curly

Sometimes, like with vorlauf, you can get clues if you know some of the differences in pronunciation between the two languages, like they pronounce 'v' like an 'f', if I'm not mistaken.

Some surveys of the English language estimate a core of about 25% of English and Germanic origin, with just shy of 30% coming from Latin, and about as many more coming from French and Old Norman--our heritage of the Norman Invasion of 1066 in England. (The estimate of 5% from Greek seems a little low to me, with the remainder from other sources.) Another is the use of the adjective following the noun in some legal terms, like "attorney general" or "court martial," or the use of dual terms like "cease and desist," containing a word each of English and French origin. English would probably look a lot more like German if not for the Norman Conquest.

Getting even further off-topic and rambling a bit more...

Of course it's not for everyone, but if you think this sort of thing is fun, Anglish might tickle your fancy (it even has its own wiki--which I'm using in its original borrowed English sense (the word is actually from Hawaiian!) as the generic noun, not as an abbreviation for "Wikipedia"), or maybe a scientific treatise on atomic theory using only Anglo-Germanic words and roots: [url="https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/alt.language.artificial/ZL4e3fD7eW0/_7p8bKwLJWkJ]Uncleftish Beholding[/url].

I could go on all day, but I really ought to stop there, or even a couple paragraphs (Latin!) back.

 

[TheRussMeister]

dude, use another translation site/program. the german language uses "wie" instead of "was" for "what". and "why is the problems?" "Ich habe keine deutsche sprachen fur vielen jahre"...the overall structure...

That wasn't a site, that was my brain. And no, you are wrong, "wie" is how. "was" is what, get a dictionary. If you trust translation sites for grammar and sentence structure, then you may not want to speak out on someone's language. As for that last sentence, that's not what I wrote, the structure was different, but you are correct in saying that yours is incorrect. TMP, time manner place.

 

[alane1]

There is an English word for krausen and it's called barm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barm

 

[cluckk]

I haven't been brewing that long, so bear with me. I couldn't help but notice that among the pundits of brewing, there is a strict unspoken insistence upon using the German words for some thing and not for others; things seemingly chosen at random.
For example:
Krausen - I see no reason this should not be called a "foam layer."
Vorlauf - I see no reason this should not be called "recycling."
Lauter - I see no reason this should not be called "filtering."

I can't think of any more right now, but I'm sure there are more. I do no see the need for using the German words for these because they are not proper nouns, and some are verbs. I can understand Hefeweizen, Kolsch, Bock, etc. because these are proper nouns. These are the names of the beers. But Krausen? That's not a name. Why are we using the German word for it?

I asked a guy at a LHBS event why we use "vorlauf" and he said there was no word for it in English.

I see that you are an Electrical Controls Tech. When you are speaking to others in your field do you insist on removing jargon and using simple plain names for things that would be understood by the uninitiated? Such speech has many purposes, one is the idea of initiation. You become part of the electrical engineer community by learning their special language and gain acceptance through this. You become part of the brewing community by learning our special language and through this you gain acceptance. I have a very different problem with some of this. If you are going to use the German term, use it and spell it right. Krausen is not how it is spelled. The word has an umlaut over the 'a'. When writing the word and this symbol is not available the proper way to write it is to insert an 'e' after the letter, so on an English keyboard the word should be typed "kraeusen," and it is pronounced very different from "krausen." However, it would be just as silly for me to insist others type in proper German as it would be for another to expect the community to change terminology to match their own tastes.

 

[GrogNerd]

Kräusen

character map... it's your friend™

 

[PJoyce85]

dude, use another translation site/program. the german language uses "wie" instead of "was" for "what". and "why is the problems?" "Ich habe keine deutsche sprachen fur vielen jahre"...the overall structure...

Nope.

Wie = How or Like (when comparing things)
Was = What

And it is:
Ich habe für viele Jahre kein Deutsch gesprochen
OR
Ich sprach für viele Jahre kein Deutsch.
(But this tense is seldom used in speech because it is more difficult, even for native German speakers)


Vorlauf = forerun (literal translation) but also translates to first runnings

I haven't done research, but I think krausen came from the word Kräusengärung which means white head or white scum, but was changed to krausen in English because that is way easier to say.

And to the OP, use whatever language you want. No one is holding a SS spoon to your head saying use German . Some people enjoy the tradition

 

[Cathedral]

That wasn't a site, that was my brain. And no, you are wrong, "wie" is how. "was" is what, get a dictionary. If you trust translation sites for grammar and sentence structure, then you may not want to speak out on someone's language. As for that last sentence, that's not what I wrote, the structure was different, but you are correct in saying that yours is incorrect. TMP, time manner place.

And to really throw a wrench in the machine, I've heard "was" and "wie" used interchangeably by these damn young whippersnappers!

kid one: "Bier saugt!"
kid two: "Was? WIE!?"

("beer sucks!")
("what? WHAT!?")

 

[latium]

Computer folk may recognize this one.

ACHTUNG! ALLES LOOKENSPEEPERS!

Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.

 

[robertfraser]

Jargon is what it all is, and it serves a good purpose. It brings very specific definitions to trades, hobbies, sports etc, and allows language to be more specific.

Krausen is only one thing, and when you know what it is, you KNOW what it is.... "foamy layer" is descriptive, but the foamy layer on my wort may be krausen, or it might not be.

When the community gives it a name, we define something specific.


Someone mentioned sailing, and sailors really have a second language, and as much as the noobs might be intimidated by it, (as I was when I began sailing) these seemingly needlessly arcane names help improve the process:

Act 1 Scene 1

Thurston Howell III in his skippers cap: Ease the mainsheet a foot and belay it to this cleat.

Me: huh?


Thurston Howell III in his skippers cap: find the white rope with the green flecks that controls the angle of the sail to the wind, let out a foot of it, and then tie it around this metal protuberance designed to have ropes tied around it.

Me: Ohhhhh OK

Thurston Howell III in his skippers cap: Then, go get me a beer!

Me: Aye Aye, SKIPPER!

( some needs transcend language....)

 

[PJoyce85]

And to really throw a wrench in the machine, I've heard "was" and "wie" used interchangeably by these damn young whippersnappers!

kid one: "Bier saugt!"
kid two: "Was? WIE!?"

("beer sucks!")
("what? WHAT!?")

Haha, man (said playfully)
No German would say saugt to describe something. It is a verb, not an adjective. The infinitive is saugen and means to suck. Suck like a vacuum cleaner sucks up dirt.

Also, the Wie would be short for "Wie, bitte?" And would mean something like "how can you say something like that?!?!" in that context.

Not calling you out so don't take offense

Some earlier posters have tried calling people out but were also wrong. I don't like that

 

[unionrdr]

I've heard them say "was" like "voss". that sort of thing. One of these days,I'll learn the language of my sirname. Pop's side is from upper bavaria in this medium size town the wall ran through the middle of.

 

[PJoyce85]

I've heard them say "was" like "voss". that sort of thing. One of these days,I'll learn the language of my sirname. Pop's side is from upper bavaria in this medium size town the wall ran through the middle of.

Haha. The dialect in Bavaria is hard to understand. One of my friends said that he cannot understand what they say. AND HE IS GERMAN!!!

 

[Cathedral]

Haha, man (said playfully)
No German would say saugt to describe something. It is a verb, not an adjective. The infinitive is saugen and means to suck. Suck like a vacuum cleaner sucks up dirt.

Also, the Wie would be short for "Wie, bitte?" And would mean something like "how can you say something like that?!?!" in that context.

Not calling you out so don't take offense

Some earlier posters have tried calling people out but were also wrong. I don't like that

No offense taken. I'm not by any means fluent in German so I looked up the "Bier saugt" line just for something to use as an example. Thanks for explaining the "Wie" part; just goes to show how words, concepts, and idioms don't usually translate, which is the point of this whole thread, isn't it?

 

[PJoyce85]

No offense taken. I'm not by any means fluent in German so I looked up the "Bier saugt" line just for something to use as an example. Thanks for explaining the "Wie" part; just goes to show how words, concepts, and idioms don't usually translate, which is the point of this whole thread, isn't it?

Oh good. I'm glad I didn't come off like a huge dick.

It's hard. So many things in German do not translate directly and that makes learning it tough.

BTW you could say:
Bier schmeckt wie scheisse. (aber wissen wir dass dies nicht stimmt )

 

[KarlHungus76]

'Murica

 

[unionrdr]

Haha. The dialect in Bavaria is hard to understand. One of my friends said that he cannot understand what they say. AND HE IS GERMAN!!!

Oh goody...this ought to be fun...

 

[PJoyce85]

Oh goody...this ought to be fun...

Get your Lederhosen ready

 

[unionrdr]

Better get ready for those 1L curls too. Good for the arms.
Seriously though,I want to go visit the city of my ancestors that I've traced back to 1600. And speaking the language at least conversationally would be nice.

 

[JonM]

What's with all the French words in winemaking?
What's with all the Latin words in biology?
What's with all the Greek words in architecture?

 

[GoldMiner]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?