What's with all the random German vocab in the homebrewing world?

[Echoloc8]

I think it also comes down to precision is most cases. "Recirculation" can refer to the process we call vorlaufing, but also processes involving paperwork and pool water. Ditto "foam layer" and others.

But "vorlauf" has more meaning than just recirculation of wort. There's clarification/filtration involved and settling of the grain bed.

Same for "kraeusen," which is both the foam itself, the state of generating the foam (high kraeusen), and (more obscurely in verb form) the process of using wort to prime while bottling.

Ditto "lauter": there's denaturing of enzymes (in the absence of a mashout), washing of sugars from the grain, raising of pH.

Plus, in all cases, you know the speaker's talking about beer. Each of these terms comes with a context (beer-makin' talk) and has both connotations and denotations that substitute terms just don't.

Best just to use the proper terms.

-Rich

 

[Yooper]

Ouch Canada! I'm from Texas and have no frustration with using foreign words. I just transform them into Texas words like we do to all the German and Spanish named towns in our state.

Crawson, trubb, lawter, verloft, spurge, Rainheight's Bot, etc.

Yes! Texans do that all the time!

I was telling my neighbor (from San Antonio) that sometime I'd like to have him try some of these beers I like from Real Ale Brewing.

He asked me where it was made, and I said, "Blanco" (not far from San Antonio). I speak Spanish a little, by the way.

He looked puzzled for a bit, and finally said, "Oh, you mean BLANK-o"

Um, yeah. Blanko, not Blanco the color!

And when he left, he smiled, waved and said, "Bueno bye!"

No lie. Bueno bye.

Texans. Gotta love 'em!

 

[KegWrangler]

I say we just american-ize them...

Freedom Foam
Freedom Flush?
Freedom Filter

 

[Nightshade]

I am late to the thread but...

I don't ever say vorlauf, instead I call it recirculation...in fact Iuntil recently I had no idea what vorlauf even was lol

 

[AlCophile]

Deutsch, Deutsch, Deutsch!

 

[tgmartin000]

Last night I ate some thin noodles covered with tomato sauce and Italian herbs, it was excellent. I followed it up with a thin layer of dough, covered in tomato sauce and cheese, with that long skinny dried italian meat. Also excellent. Washed it all down with a fermented beverage made from barley, hops, water, and yeast!

 

[Bulls Beers]

Prost!!!!

 

[shataway]

Ouch Canada! I'm from Texas and have no frustration with using foreign words. I just transform them into Texas words like we do to all the German and Spanish named towns in our state.

Crawson, trubb, lawter, verloft, spurge, Rainheight's Bot, etc.

Amen brother! I insist pronouncing trub like tub and not troob, tun like fun and not toon. Right, wrong, or ignorant, thats how I roll. To non-brewers, I translate similar as the OP suggests.

 

[Fizzycist]

The remainder come mostly from Old French, with a few from Latin and Greek, plus one from Hindi!

Slightly OT but which one's the Hindi one?

 

[MalFet]

Slightly OT but which one's the Hindi one?

Pundit, from 'paṇḍit' (teacher).

 

[Proboscidea]

To be fair, though, context is a non-trivial factor. Meaning doesn't happen in a vacuum. If I were talking about homebrewing and mentioned that I "recirculate," the first thing that jumps to mind would not be paperwork or pool water. "Vorlauf" is more precise, but nobody's going to get confused and run off to the nearest pool pump if I say "recirculate."

And for that matter, when we're brewing and we talk about "water," how do we all know we're talking about potable water, rather than water from the ocean or falling from the sky? Shouldn't we have a special word for the fluid that is combined with grain to make wort? (and another word for the water that has been altered to style-specific mineral profiles)

Perhaps "vorlauf" is in a "jargon-optional" category. Unlike "wort," which truly has no meaningful English equivalent. Well, I guess you could say "sugar water." So I suppose it all comes down to where you draw that line.

 

[Proboscidea]

(and then the ghost of the horse starts to haunt me, yet I continue beating ...)

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

To be fair, though, context is a non-trivial factor. Meaning doesn't happen in a vacuum. If I were talking about homebrewing and mentioned that I "recirculate," the first thing that jumps to mind would not be paperwork or pool water. "Vorlauf" is more precise, but nobody's going to get confused and run off to the nearest pool pump if I say "recirculate."

Sure. But if you have a RIMS setup (recirculating infusion mash system), are you recirculating or vorlaufing? You're recirculating. Vorlauf is an EVEN MORE specific term related to setting the grain bed and providing clarity.

I recirculate several things during the course of a brew day. I vorlauf once.

And for that matter, when we're brewing and we talk about "water," how do we all know we're talking about potable water, rather than water from the ocean or falling from the sky? Shouldn't we have a special word for the fluid that is combined with grain to make wort? (and another word for the water that has been altered to style-specific mineral profiles)

We do, although it's not as often used. Liquor. Or "Brewing liquor".

Why do you think it's called your HLT (hot liquor tank) even though there's only water in it?

 

[ACbrewer]

For the record, I agree with your assessment. After reading the comments and digesting them, I agree with most of what's been said and I have changed my mind. My original post was a little ridiculous and I think the German terms are appropriate.

Though I've just conceded on public record, I'm sure there will come more posts after this one, which will not take that into account.

you could edit your original post to help prevent some of that.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Yes! Texans do that all the time!

I was telling my neighbor (from San Antonio) that sometime I'd like to have him try some of these beers I like from Real Ale Brewing.

He asked me where it was made, and I said, "Blanco" (not far from San Antonio). I speak Spanish a little, by the way.

He looked puzzled for a bit, and finally said, "Oh, you mean BLANK-o"

Um, yeah. Blanko, not Blanco the color!

And when he left, he smiled, waved and said, "Bueno bye!"

No lie. Bueno bye.

Texans. Gotta love 'em!

For a while, my sister lived in the Ozarks.

She lived in [outside of, actually] the town of Gravois Mills. Which was not too far from Versailles.

Or, as the locals called them, Grav-oyz Mills and Ver-sails.

 

[Proboscidea]

We do, although it's not as often used. Liquor. Or "Brewing liquor".

Why do you think it's called your HLT (hot liquor tank) even though there's only water in it?

But they* went and picked a word that's supposed to add a level of precision & specificity which, ironically, has multiple meanings. Unless you're literally supposed to fill your HLT with whiskey or whatever.


(* "they" being the shadowy brewing linguistics illuminati who control our jargon)

 

[ACbrewer]

Love this description.

I wish I could claim it was mine originally, but it isn't. However if you want, you can claim it is yours when you repeat it. I can't remember if I said in the original post that English has over 1 million words, the nearest competitor has like 200K.

 

[MalFet]

I wish I could claim it was mine originally, but it isn't. However if you want, you can claim it is yours when you repeat it. I can't remember if I said in the original post that English has over 1 million words, the nearest competitor has like 200K.

As you indicate in your previous post, counting words is ultimately an exercise in definitions as much as anything else. If you include proper names, for example, the number becomes very high very quickly. Morphology also makes the issue thorny; are 'brew' and 'brewing' different words, for example? By their own particular metrics, the OED puts the number of distinct English words somewhere near 600k, though many of those are very archaic.

However, the idea that English has a lexicon five times the size of the next largest language is hard to justify. Though English has expanded its reach with aggressive borrowing, so have many other languages.

 

[lumpher]

Wirklich? Es ist leichter, weil wir die Begriffe schon wissen.

 

[Yooper]

To be fair, though, context is a non-trivial factor. Meaning doesn't happen in a vacuum. If I were talking about homebrewing and mentioned that I "recirculate," the first thing that jumps to mind would not be paperwork or pool water. "Vorlauf" is more precise, but nobody's going to get confused and run off to the nearest pool pump if I say "recirculate."

And for that matter, when we're brewing and we talk about "water," how do we all know we're talking about potable water, rather than water from the ocean or falling from the sky? Shouldn't we have a special word for the fluid that is combined with grain to make wort? (and another word for the water that has been altered to style-specific mineral profiles)

Perhaps "vorlauf" is in a "jargon-optional" category. Unlike "wort," which truly has no meaningful English equivalent. Well, I guess you could say "sugar water." So I suppose it all comes down to where you draw that line.

Ah, but when I hear "recirculate", I think HERMS or RIMS (which both have the word "recirculate" in their very definitions) and certainly not vorlaufing.

Liquor is brewing water, always, and I often hear it referred to that way when I'm in a brewery.

Like I said, they are terms specific to brewing, and not just "German", but instead they are brewing terms.

Anyone who brews knows what a mashtun is, or a lautertun, or a mash/lautertun.

Wort is wort, until the yeast is "pitched". Racking is a winemaking/brewing term as well. It's not German, but we all know what it means.

 

[TheRussMeister]

Was?! Warum ist die Probleme mit dem deutschen Worte? Die deutsche Sprache ist sehr genau, veil mehr als das Englisch. Und diese Worter enstand vom die deutschen Worter.

Es tut mir lied, für meinen Sprachlehre. Ich sprache kein Deutsche für vielen Jahren.

 

[Cathedral]

As you indicate in your previous post, counting words is ultimately an exercise in definitions as much as anything else. If you include proper names, for example, the number becomes very high very quickly. Morphology also makes the issue thorny; are 'brew' and 'brewing' different words, for example? By their own particular metrics, the OED puts the number of distinct English words somewhere near 600k, though many of those are very archaic.

However, the idea that English has a lexicon five times the size of the next largest language is hard to justify. Though English has expanded its reach with aggressive borrowing, so have many other languages.

"brewing" is just a conjugation of the verb "(to) brew" and does not, in a linguistic sense, justify an original word. Just like in latin, were every verb has at least five different conjugations; if you were to include participles than each verb would spawn at least 15 other "words."

eg:
Brew (v): creating beer
Brew
Brewing
Brewed
Will Brew
Will have Brewed
Brew (n): beer, synonym.

To the dictionary (Random House) it is just one word: Brew

And, OP, the word "brew" comes from the old German "brauen."

 

[osagedr]

Deutsch, Deutsch, Deutsch!

******.

 

[Gerhard]

I grew up in St. Paul, MN and the old time brewers told me that German was spoken in the breweries up to the 1950's.

 

[Lac]

German is chock full of great, specific words...like schadenfreude
I dunno, but for what its worth I kinda like the borrowed words. I think I'm kind of used to it though growing up around chemists and such in my family, where german words are used all the time for things where english words would have worked.
Plus, german just sounds pretty cool.

 

[MalFet]

"brewing" is just a conjugation of the verb "(to) brew" and does not, in a linguistic sense, justify an original word.

If you want to get technical (and who doesn't! ):

'brew (v)' -> 'brewing (n)' is a derivation rather than a conjugation because it makes the word change functional categories (from verb to noun). By convention, linguists generally treat derived forms as independent words, and most comprehensive dictionaries include a separate entry for 'brewing'.

But, that was just meant as a simple example. Even if you feel strongly one way or the other about -ing, most of a language's words are found in a vast, sticky grey area. Here's the list of what's been added to the OED this last December:

Aggadah, akhund, apastron, Aquarid, base case, bicyclic, bicycling, bicycloannulation, black-fronted, busgirl, cane corso, Captcha, captival, carpsucker, chrono-, chronotropic, chronotropism, chronotropy, cold sore, cycloheptane, Darwinic, Entlebucher, FLOP, gingiva, golficé, ice giant, ice queen, ice time, ice wine, ice-cool, icecrete, iced tea, Iceni, infectability, infectable, infectee, infectibility, ironice, kalua, kalua, key code, key working, keyboarder, kinara, leproid, logice, Long Island ice tea, Long Island iced tea, micropig, ocicat, Old Icelandic, quod erat demonstrandum, savaging, savanilla, savanilla, savantism, savasana, savoured | savored, senioritis, small cap, small drink, small grain, smaller, smallie, snowcrete, stat., state bank, state function, state of matter, state of war, state secretary, state-dependent, statement, staticize, staticizer, statico-, statual, statue, statued, stibarsen, xolo, xoloitzcuintli

Most of these are either words from other languages or words that have been combined from other words, but the OED's linguists decided they justified wordhood because their meanings could not be deduced purely from their parts. To know what an "ice wine" is, for example, you need to know something more than just what "ice" means and what "wine" means. Conversely, loan words are never simple. Nepali, for example, has a word 'trajedi', which clearly comes from English, except it means only and exactly "a particularly bad breakup". Is that then an English word? A Nepali word? Who the heck knows?!?

Anyway, apologies that this is

 

[lumpher]

Was?! Warum ist die Probleme mit dem deutschen Worte? Die deutsche Sprache ist sehr genau, veil mehr als das Englisch. Und diese Worter enstand vom die deutschen Worter.

Es tut mir lied, für meinen Sprachlehre. Ich sprache kein Deutsche für vielen Jahren.

dude, use another translation site/program. the german language uses "wie" instead of "was" for "what". and "why is the problems?" "Ich habe keine deutsche sprachen fur vielen jahre"...the overall structure...

 

[Yooper]

Was?! Warum ist die Probleme mit dem deutschen Worte? Die deutsche Sprache ist sehr genau, veil mehr als das Englisch. Und diese Worter enstand vom die deutschen Worter.

Es tut mir lied, für meinen Sprachlehre. Ich sprache kein Deutsche für vielen Jahren.

My German must be slipping, but I'm having trouble with this. I don't quite understand. I haven't lived in Germany since 1983, so maybe I've forgotten the language?

 

[Pilgarlic]

Another thread ends in tatters.

 

[MalFet]

Another thread ends in tatters.

Bah. If you want strictly disciplined vectors of information, there are many professionally edited books that I'm sure people will be glad to recommend. As for this thread, the OP stated that the question was resolved. If he wants to bring it back on topic, I'm sure everyone will oblige him.

 

[latium]

As an amateur word nerd, this really tickles my fancy.

Just for fun, I plugged a few into Google Translate:

vorlauf => forerun
lauter => pure
krausen => curly

Sometimes, like with vorlauf, you can get clues if you know some of the differences in pronunciation between the two languages, like they pronounce 'v' like an 'f', if I'm not mistaken.

Some surveys of the English language estimate a core of about 25% of English and Germanic origin, with just shy of 30% coming from Latin, and about as many more coming from French and Old Norman--our heritage of the Norman Invasion of 1066 in England. (The estimate of 5% from Greek seems a little low to me, with the remainder from other sources.) Another is the use of the adjective following the noun in some legal terms, like "attorney general" or "court martial," or the use of dual terms like "cease and desist," containing a word each of English and French origin. English would probably look a lot more like German if not for the Norman Conquest.

Getting even further off-topic and rambling a bit more...

Of course it's not for everyone, but if you think this sort of thing is fun, Anglish might tickle your fancy (it even has its own wiki--which I'm using in its original borrowed English sense (the word is actually from Hawaiian!) as the generic noun, not as an abbreviation for "Wikipedia"), or maybe a scientific treatise on atomic theory using only Anglo-Germanic words and roots: [url="https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/alt.language.artificial/ZL4e3fD7eW0/_7p8bKwLJWkJ]Uncleftish Beholding[/url].

I could go on all day, but I really ought to stop there, or even a couple paragraphs (Latin!) back.

 

[TheRussMeister]

dude, use another translation site/program. the german language uses "wie" instead of "was" for "what". and "why is the problems?" "Ich habe keine deutsche sprachen fur vielen jahre"...the overall structure...

That wasn't a site, that was my brain. And no, you are wrong, "wie" is how. "was" is what, get a dictionary. If you trust translation sites for grammar and sentence structure, then you may not want to speak out on someone's language. As for that last sentence, that's not what I wrote, the structure was different, but you are correct in saying that yours is incorrect. TMP, time manner place.

 

[alane1]

There is an English word for krausen and it's called barm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barm

 

[cluckk]

I haven't been brewing that long, so bear with me. I couldn't help but notice that among the pundits of brewing, there is a strict unspoken insistence upon using the German words for some thing and not for others; things seemingly chosen at random.
For example:
Krausen - I see no reason this should not be called a "foam layer."
Vorlauf - I see no reason this should not be called "recycling."
Lauter - I see no reason this should not be called "filtering."

I can't think of any more right now, but I'm sure there are more. I do no see the need for using the German words for these because they are not proper nouns, and some are verbs. I can understand Hefeweizen, Kolsch, Bock, etc. because these are proper nouns. These are the names of the beers. But Krausen? That's not a name. Why are we using the German word for it?

I asked a guy at a LHBS event why we use "vorlauf" and he said there was no word for it in English.

I see that you are an Electrical Controls Tech. When you are speaking to others in your field do you insist on removing jargon and using simple plain names for things that would be understood by the uninitiated? Such speech has many purposes, one is the idea of initiation. You become part of the electrical engineer community by learning their special language and gain acceptance through this. You become part of the brewing community by learning our special language and through this you gain acceptance. I have a very different problem with some of this. If you are going to use the German term, use it and spell it right. Krausen is not how it is spelled. The word has an umlaut over the 'a'. When writing the word and this symbol is not available the proper way to write it is to insert an 'e' after the letter, so on an English keyboard the word should be typed "kraeusen," and it is pronounced very different from "krausen." However, it would be just as silly for me to insist others type in proper German as it would be for another to expect the community to change terminology to match their own tastes.

 

[GrogNerd]

Kräusen

character map... it's your friend™

 

[PJoyce85]

dude, use another translation site/program. the german language uses "wie" instead of "was" for "what". and "why is the problems?" "Ich habe keine deutsche sprachen fur vielen jahre"...the overall structure...

Nope.

Wie = How or Like (when comparing things)
Was = What

And it is:
Ich habe für viele Jahre kein Deutsch gesprochen
OR
Ich sprach für viele Jahre kein Deutsch.
(But this tense is seldom used in speech because it is more difficult, even for native German speakers)


Vorlauf = forerun (literal translation) but also translates to first runnings

I haven't done research, but I think krausen came from the word Kräusengärung which means white head or white scum, but was changed to krausen in English because that is way easier to say.

And to the OP, use whatever language you want. No one is holding a SS spoon to your head saying use German . Some people enjoy the tradition

 

[Cathedral]

That wasn't a site, that was my brain. And no, you are wrong, "wie" is how. "was" is what, get a dictionary. If you trust translation sites for grammar and sentence structure, then you may not want to speak out on someone's language. As for that last sentence, that's not what I wrote, the structure was different, but you are correct in saying that yours is incorrect. TMP, time manner place.

And to really throw a wrench in the machine, I've heard "was" and "wie" used interchangeably by these damn young whippersnappers!

kid one: "Bier saugt!"
kid two: "Was? WIE!?"

("beer sucks!")
("what? WHAT!?")

 

[latium]

Computer folk may recognize this one.

ACHTUNG! ALLES LOOKENSPEEPERS!

Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.

 

[robertfraser]

Jargon is what it all is, and it serves a good purpose. It brings very specific definitions to trades, hobbies, sports etc, and allows language to be more specific.

Krausen is only one thing, and when you know what it is, you KNOW what it is.... "foamy layer" is descriptive, but the foamy layer on my wort may be krausen, or it might not be.

When the community gives it a name, we define something specific.


Someone mentioned sailing, and sailors really have a second language, and as much as the noobs might be intimidated by it, (as I was when I began sailing) these seemingly needlessly arcane names help improve the process:

Act 1 Scene 1

Thurston Howell III in his skippers cap: Ease the mainsheet a foot and belay it to this cleat.

Me: huh?


Thurston Howell III in his skippers cap: find the white rope with the green flecks that controls the angle of the sail to the wind, let out a foot of it, and then tie it around this metal protuberance designed to have ropes tied around it.

Me: Ohhhhh OK

Thurston Howell III in his skippers cap: Then, go get me a beer!

Me: Aye Aye, SKIPPER!

( some needs transcend language....)

 

[PJoyce85]

And to really throw a wrench in the machine, I've heard "was" and "wie" used interchangeably by these damn young whippersnappers!

kid one: "Bier saugt!"
kid two: "Was? WIE!?"

("beer sucks!")
("what? WHAT!?")

Haha, man (said playfully)
No German would say saugt to describe something. It is a verb, not an adjective. The infinitive is saugen and means to suck. Suck like a vacuum cleaner sucks up dirt.

Also, the Wie would be short for "Wie, bitte?" And would mean something like "how can you say something like that?!?!" in that context.

Not calling you out so don't take offense

Some earlier posters have tried calling people out but were also wrong. I don't like that