What's the secret to brewing a REALLY clean tasting IPA?

[Comfort_Zone]

When you get bought for half a billion the number of accountants goes up dramatically.

Oh absolutely. I'm not arguing for or against it, and I'm sure at their scale it makes an enormous difference.

 

[madscientist451]

Basic question: What's the secret to making the hops shine through 100% and absolutely zero yeast or yeast byproduct taste? Fermentation temps? Certain strain of yeast at a specific temp?

The "hops shine" question has already been answered, water profile/mineral manipulation.
I read the whole thread and I didn't see an answer to the "zero yeast or byproduct taste question? Sorry if I missed it, my 2 cents is the ability to cold crash the beer is essential. When I finally got a chest freezer and a temperature controller for it my beer greatly improved. Of course, I was running temperature controlled fermentations
with the freezer set up, but cold crashing really clears the beer and gets rid of most of the yeast, which really helps produce a clean beer flavor.
All the other tips provided in the thread are important too.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

^@madscientist451 has some solid advice. Getting your water chemistry down makes a huge difference in the way that the finished beer is perceived. Minimizing/eliminating oxygen exposure makes a big difference too.

 

[fendersrule]

Welp, here's my taste test from my two latest batches:

1) BeeCave Porter: Absolutely outstanding.

2) Mac and Jacks: That gross taste is there, even worse than it was during bottling.

So just like I thought, the Mac and Jacks is toast and no amount of aging is going ot fix it. I used WYEAST 1098 (smack pack). I'm not sure what the taste is, but it's very hard to ignore and it's strong. I did dry hop this batch. I need to figure out if the taste is coming from the hops or a yeast issue. It's the same gross taste of a double batch of IPA I made last time that I had to dump, which also was dry hopped....

For the dry hopping, I used pellets that I had in the fridge, which was probably a couple weeks old. I always either cinch the package closed with rubber bands, or I use a baggy clamp on it. I keep it them in the freezer compartment. Maybe the taste is coming from this? If this is bad practice, let me know and I will toss any left over hops out immediately when brewing.

Otherwise, I did fermentation by the book. The WYEAST NEVER left 68F during fermentation. The thing I mentioned before is that the smack pack called for a 1 hour setup time in the bag after "smacking". I waited this out, and noticed that the bag wasn't as "plump" as I would have expected.

 

[Bassman2003]

There's no "your" here. Not sure what you're arguing. There's a HUGE difference between 1.008, 1.012, 1.015 and 1.020. 1.020 is undrinkable in virtually all beer styles. Blech.

I'd put my HB IPA toe to toe with the best IPAs in the world. I was an IPA addict before they were trendy and i've spent a LOT of time figuring them out. I've made a lot of them that weren't great to test different methods (e.g. 100% whirlpool hops). It's definitely a sum of the parts but certain things help more than others. If you want something world class, by which i mean better than just about anything you'll get at your local craft brewery or buy on store shelves, you need to pay attention to the details. You can make hoppy beer easily, but to have it be something with the right mouthfeel, flavor, bitterness, carbonation and overall balance takes some attention to detail.
-100% RO water with mineral adjustment
-Simple grain bills with bland base malts
-Meticulous oxygen exclusion hot and cold side
-pH monitoring/adjustment in the mash, boil, and knock out
-Step mashing for maximum extract, attenuation and clarity
-Use of clarifiers and stabilizers
-Layered application of the freshest possible hops in various forms.... isomerized oils, non-isomerized oils, hop hash, pellets
-High yeast pitching rates
-Oxygenation of wort with pure O2
-Fermentation temperature control
-Spunding

Would you share your pH goals for IPA/PA? Do you steer it down from the sparge to the end of the boil? Thanks

 

[schematix]

Would you share your pH goals for IPA/PA? Do you steer it down from the sparge to the end of the boil? Thanks

I target 5.4 for the mash, boil of 5.2 and i add some acid at 10 minutes to go to bring it closer to 5.0.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. Does this practice change much for different styles of beer?

 

[schematix]

Thanks. Does this practice change much for different styles of beer?

It's not a universal rule. I find it works pretty well and results in very short lag times when combined with other techniques (proper pitch rates, oxygenation and nutrient/zinc dosing). Grain to glass in 7 days is normal for ales in my house.

I primarily do german style lagers and IPAs.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. I will try it out in the future.

 

[fendersrule]

I wanted to update this thread based off some new information.

What I was experiencing has nothing to do with Yeast. My fermentation process is perfect.

After handing out a few terrible bottles of my Mac and Jacks, it was likely assumed that I have an infection.

1) Veggie, vinegar taste. No taste of malts or hops.
2) A few bottles act like they are overcarbed (when they are not). This is also a sign of infection.
3) I learned recently that Star San is strictly disinfector, but it is not a cleaner. I thought it did both.

The Beecave porter tastes great, but the more I drink it, the more I am sensing something underneath the malts that isn't so great. I would actually consider that this beer may be infected as well, but it is drinkable and isn't worthy of dumping. So this again will add to the fact that I believe I have an infection.

So now, I have learned a painful lesson. That lesson is to use PBW the day before brew day and soak/clean everything, then the day of brew day continue to use Star San.

I'm actually surprised I didn't have more failures than I had up to this point. I had enough failures that something was wrong. Now I am very excited and feel like I can get back to making excellent beer.

I made another batch of Mac and Jacks. The process was picture perfect. Things were either cleaned properly with PBW and/or replaced (questionable hoses, etc).

Fermentation is now on day 3, and it's starting to wind down. I used S-04. I was expecting more blow-off since I don't leave a lot of head-space in my fermenter, but interestingly nothing came up through the blow-off tube!

I have a feeling this will be a great beer. Hopefully I have found and solved my issue so I can get back to being excited about brewing again.

If all goes well with this, I plan to make an IPA again. One thing I will start doing, especially for lighter beers, is to use a Campden tablet.

Do Campden tablets alter my Bru'N water chemestry in any way? I would assume not, but I want to make sure.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I have a feeling this will be a great beer. Hopefully I have found and solved my issue so I can get back to being excited about brewing again.

If all goes well with this, I plan to make an IPA again. One thing I will start doing, especially for lighter beers, is to use a Campden tablet.

Do Campden tablets alter my Bru'N water chemestry in any way? I would assume not, but I want to make sure.

Good to hear you're making progress!

Note that a campden tablet has nothing to do with lighter/darker beers. Its only purpose is to neutralize chlorine/chloramine, which it does immediately and very well. This won't really make an IPA-specific improvement unless you're getting chlorophenols, which is a pretty recognizable off-flavor and would exist in all beer styles.

I recommend trying a test batch using distilled or RO water and adding salts per Bru'n water. That way you'll know first off that you're free of chlorine/chloramine, and second off you'll be able to build the water profile you desire for an IPA.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...

 

[CascadesBrewer]

That lesson is to use PBW the day before brew day and soak/clean everything, then the day of brew day continue to use Star San.

What I have learned is that it is best to clean your equipment as soon as possible after using it. On brew day you should be able to just give a quick rinse and then sanitize. Good luck with your future beers!

 

[eric19312]

I’ll add regarding clean and sanitize ... maybe you know this already ... but really only equipment that comes into contact with wort after boil needs to be sanitized. Please don’t waste sanitizer on your mash tun...rinsed off is enough there.

 

[brewbama]

...
Note that a campden tablet has nothing to do with lighter/darker beers. Its only purpose is to neutralize chlorine/chloramine, which it does immediately and very well.

“SMB actually does deactivate the action of PPO in addition scavenging oxygen and driving off chlorine/chloramine.”

“lipoxygenase (LOX) and peroxidase enzymes... Along with superoxide dismutase (SOD) and polyphenol oxidase (PPO), ...comprise most of what we'd think of as enzymatic browning reactions. You'd commonly see this happen in apples, potatoes, avocados, and just about any other fruit or vegetable after they've been cut and exposed to air.”

http://immaculatebrewery.com/oxygen-and-mashing/

 

[brewbama]

Do Campden tablets alter my Bru'N water chemestry in any way? I would assume not, but I want to make sure.

IMO Yes. Camden = sodium metabisulfate or potassium metabisulfate. It adds Na (or K depending on the version) and SO2.

 

[fendersrule]

It looks like it doesn't add very much though. Something to be mindful of while filling out Bru'N'Water

Is there any reason I shouldn't add a cambden tablet on brewday? Just seems to be a thing to do for good measure using house tap water. It doesn't really take any time out of the brew day to use a 1/2 tablet (or whatever), mix, and let it sit for 20 minutes while I prepare other things.

Here is what I have at home right now. The girlfriend uses it for cider making (this is the potassium one):

https://home-brew-stuff.myshopify.c...ium-metabisulfite?_pos=1&_sid=a377d0255&_ss=r

I have an option to buy this (sodium one):

https://home-brew-stuff.myshopify.com/products/7060-4?_pos=1&_sid=a238a9eb9&_ss=r

 

[fendersrule]

From Martin:

"Moderate potassium content in brewing water generally has little effect on brewing performance or taste. Adding these compounds at a rate of about 9 milligrams per liter (~35 milligrams per gallon or ~1 tablet per 20 gallons) or (~1 tablet per 75 liters) will dechlorinate typical municipal water and leave residual concentrations of about 3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride."

Use of the tablet will add:

3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on which type)
8 ppm sulfate & 3 ppm chloride

My salt content of my water is already at 17 ppm. Not low, not high, probably just average. So use of the sodium campden will raise my baseline to 19 ppm. An Amber Balanced calls for 15 ppm, and a pale ale profile calls for 25ppm, and porters/stouts call for even more. Sounds like at a 19 ppm baseline with use of the campden will be great.

I also welcome more sulfate and chloride (which you cannot add alone) that come with the campden tablet!

FYI, my water is pretty good for a brewing baseline for most beers. I have no problem adjusting it to Porters, Stouts, or IPAs. Hefe's is the only one I've brewed thus far that my water profile doesn't really work great for (but it still worked good enough to make a good one).

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Yes, add the Campden when using tap water.

 

[fendersrule]

And actually, the use of Sodium Metabisulfite will actually give me more options/choices on Bru-N-Water, so I actually think it's a good idea to inject it into my toolkit. It would allow for an easy adjustment of Sulfate without raising Calcium or Magnesium, plus, it assures that chlorine or chlorimine (sp, whatever) won't be present in the finished product.

Probably should have been using this all along.

Question: do you guys ever add MORE sodium campden for water adjustment based on Bru'N'Water if you feel that's the easiest way to adjust a particular atribute, or is it best to keep it the use of campdens at the minimal called for Chlorine removal. Seems to me since it is a mineral, that it can be used either way....

@mabrungard

Adding Martin to, because I'm not sure if this question has been asked. Martin, I also noticed that Bru'n'water doesn't take into acount the increased Chloride that is added from Sodium Metabisulfite?

If I used 1/8 teaspoon (25 ppm as noted on spreadsheet) of Sodium Metabisulfite for 7.5 Mash Water (5 gallon finished beer), that will add 6 PPM sodium, 25.3 PPM sulfate, and 0 cloride. I'm assuming that even 1/8 of a teaspoon is way more than enough to treat this water for clorine removal, but I actually think it's an advantageous way to add more sodium and Sulfate since those are usually paired with other things.

Please advise!

 

[brewbama]

SMB has been added to the mash at for a while to not only drive off chlorine but also the added benefit of shielding O2 uptake and reduce browning.


https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29187.0

 

[Day-Day]

I brew commercial quality IPA's by simply focusing on

1) Water Chemistry
2) Yeast pitch rates/yeast choice
3)Fermentation Temps
4)Oxygenation of wort
5) Closed system transfers

Assuming you already have a solid recipe and fresh high quality ingredients... those 5 steps should get you there. Proper carbonation levels play heavily into beer flavors... I don't like my beers overly carbonated. There's other techniques to help you really dial out your recipes... but with good technique... you can make commercial quality IPA's... but they are some pretty technical beers and you have to get everything right... they are not very forgiving. I forgot to mention ph... that's a big one too.

 

[eric19312]

And actually, the use of Sodium Metabisulfite will actually give me more options/choices on Bru-N-Water, so I actually think it's a good idea to inject it into my toolkit. It would allow for an easy adjustment of Sulfate without raising Calcium or Magnesium, plus, it assures that chlorine or chlorimine (sp, whatever) won't be present in the finished product.

Probably should have been using this all along.

Question: do you guys ever add MORE sodium campden for water adjustment based on Bru'N'Water if you feel that's the easiest way to adjust a particular atribute, or is it best to keep it the use of campdens at the minimal called for Chlorine removal. Seems to me since it is a mineral, that it can be used either way....

@mabrungard

Adding Martin to, because I'm not sure if this question has been asked. Martin, I also noticed that Bru'n'water doesn't take into acount the increased Chloride that is added from Sodium Metabisulfite?

If I used 1/8 teaspoon (25 ppm as noted on spreadsheet) of Sodium Metabisulfite for 7.5 Mash Water (5 gallon finished beer), that will add 6 PPM sodium, 25.3 PPM sulfate, and 0 cloride. I'm assuming that even 1/8 of a teaspoon is way more than enough to treat this water for clorine removal, but I actually think it's an advantageous way to add more sodium and Sulfate since those are usually paired with other things.

Please advise!

I limit Campden to amount required for chlorine/chloramine removal. 1 tab in 20 gallons brewing water.

 

[fendersrule]

But can you go more since it offers an interesting combination of minerals?

And I have the powder form, so the tablet format doesn't apply. I would need to go by teaspoon measurement.

 

[fendersrule]

I just dry hopped my Mac and Jacks clone after 5 days with S-04. It's at 1.018. It should fall to 1.014, so it's not quite done yet. But boy, did it taste excellent for a green beer. I went ahead and did the 1 Oz dry hop of cascade at this time.

Honestly I must say. The worst I was expecting was that infection taste I was used to. NOPE. 0%.

Then I was like...it will probably taste like a green beer at 5 days, so expect it to taste kinda bad. NOPE. It actually tastes pretty damn good.

I know it's not done yet....but if it tastes THIS good by this time prematurely, and without \dry hopping......I think it means I solved my issue.

I hope someone will read this that needs to read this. StarSan is a miracle, BUT is NOT a cleaner. It does NOT suffice as part of the cleaning process. It has NOTHING to do with cleaning, period.

You use StarSan when things are already cleaned. You should should spend MORE time with PBW than with StarSan. PBW = The cake. StarSan = The icing.

PBW amazing. Both things are to be used during the brew process.

I have solved my issue. Thanks everyone.

As far as the water treatment question, I still look forward to Martin to answer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

As far as the water treatment question, I still look forward to Martin to answer.

I think I can help.

I would never use sodium sulfate or sodium metabisulfite to build a water profile. Adding calcium is generally a good thing (within reason), so calcium sulfate is a much better way to add sulfate. If you want more sodium, then using sodium chloride makes the most sense in my opinion.
This holds true for your particular tap water.

FYI these are all called "salts". A salt is a compound of positive (e.g. sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium) and negative (e.g. chloride, sulfate, bicarbonate) ions.

You use StarSan when things are already cleaned.

Well said. Only clean equipment can be sanitized.
As mentioned above, you should clean your equipment immediately after use.

To save money I make my own "PBW" by purchasing bulk sodium percarbonate, sodium metasilicate, and Finish Jet Dry. I mix them as needed.

Cheers

 

[fendersrule]

I guess I must have to ask why would you never? Just wondering so I can learn.

For now I'll only use the recommended dosage in order for chlorine removal. I'm just not sure what that is.

I have the powdered form. It says that 1/4 teaspoon for 50 PPM for 5 gallons. My brew size is 7.6 gallons. 1/4 teaspoon is quite a lot (like I said, it seems like it would benefit some brew styles with the increased sodium and sulfate like IPAs when/if you already have enough calcium and magnesium).

Do I want to use more like 25 PPM, which is an 1/8 teaspoon (which is hard to measure)? I wonder if someone can convert this to grams, because I think it would be easier that way. Or maybe just kinda "eyeball" what 1/4 is and just run with it. I read in another thread that .06-.08 grams is probably about right.

1/8 teaspoon of this according to Bru'N'Water will add 25 PPM sulfate, and 6 PPM sodium. I'm also curious why it doesn't show any chloride increases (I think it should?). Maybe like what you said, it only affects these two things since it is a salt.

1/16 teaspoon will add 12.6 PPM sulfate and 3 PPM sodium, which is probably where I want it. I'm assuming this would be about .06 - .08 grams?

Another post on the forum says that 360 mg should treat 20 gallons. For me, that would work out to 135 MG for my batch size, or .1 grams. So yea, it's looking like .08-.1 grams is probably what I should shoot for. Now, how to convert .1 grams into PPM on Martin's spreadsheet! I believe that would probably work out to about 6 PPM, but I'd like you guys to check me.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I guess I must have to ask why would you never?

I tried to explain:
"Adding calcium is generally a good thing (within reason), so calcium sulfate is a much better way to add sulfate."

like I said, it seems like it would benefit some brew styles with the increased sodium and sulfate like IPAs when/if you already have enough calcium and magnesium

Just look at the numbers. For example you can add 1g/gal calcium sulfate to your water to get 90ppm calcium and 152ppm sulfate.
You have no trouble hitting reasonable targets for sulfate and sodium without using sodium sulfate AND without exceeding reasonable levels of calcium or magnesium.

Do I want to use more like 25 PPM, which is an 1/8 teaspoon (which is hard to measure)?

Make life simple.
Forget the powder. Use half a tablet for chlorine/ chloramine removal. Ignore the minerals it adds.
You can get a pill splitter and any drug store.

I'm also curious why it doesn't show any chloride increases (I think it should?).

Sodium metabisulfite doesn't directly add chloride ion, and the spreadsheet doesn't know how much chlorine/ chloramine is in your water. The amount of chloride created is negligible, so you don't need to worry about it.

 

[z-bob]

“SMB actually does deactivate the action of PPO in addition scavenging oxygen and driving off chlorine/chloramine.”

“lipoxygenase (LOX) and peroxidase enzymes... Along with superoxide dismutase (SOD) and polyphenol oxidase (PPO), ...comprise most of what we'd think of as enzymatic browning reactions. You'd commonly see this happen in apples, potatoes, avocados, and just about any other fruit or vegetable after they've been cut and exposed to air.”

http://immaculatebrewery.com/oxygen-and-mashing/

I dip apple slices in Campden table solution to keep them from browning. It's been a while since I've sliced apples because my kid is grown, but I think it was half a tablet in a pint of water. They will stay pretty and white in the fridge for weeks until they eventually rot.

 

[fendersrule]

Sounds good. I would still like to use the powder that I already bought though. It says "1/4 teaspoon for 50 PPM in 5 gallons".

 

[RPh_Guy]

Let's see. Standard usage for dechlorination is 0.44g (one tablet) for 20 gal.

Scale as appropriate. For example that's 0.18g for 8 gal. It doesn't need to be exact.

Sulfite has a shelf life of about 6-12 months. So maybe you'll want to switch to tablets at some point.

 

[fendersrule]

Sweet thanks!

or you could just do a “pinch”.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Use of the tablet will add:
3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on which type)
8 ppm sulfate & 3 ppm chloride

I think I agree with the advice to not use Sodium/Potassium Metibisulfate to adjust your water chemistry, but I don't fully know why. I have heard that it can impart a Sulfur aroma...but seems like that would not make the boil and fermentation. I get where the Potassium or Sodium contribution would come from. I am not sure about the others. Metibisulfate is Oxygen and Sulfur. Does it need to react with Chlorine/Chloramine to produce Sulfate and/or Chloride? Are the 8/3 ppm values reliable, or do they vary based on your water?

In any case, I typically add 1/2 tablet to the ~8 gals of water needed for a 5 gal batch. It would take a LOT of of tablets to add 40 or 100 ppm of either Sulfate or Chloride.

 

[fendersrule]

Here's what i'm going with. I'm probably just going to "pinch" the campden powder in.

You can see why, according to my water chemistry, why having more sodium and sulfate (without anything else) is a benefit for a pale/IPA profile.

The resolution of my scale is .01g. That's not too shabby, so I could measure .18. How many PPM do you think that is on Martin's sheet?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have heard that it can impart a Sulfur aroma.

If you add too much sulfite AND don't adequately aerate/oxygenate your wort before pitching, then the yeast may produce hydrogen sulfide.
Hydrogen sulfide also reacts with oxygen, so it'll only stay in the beer if you prevent oxygen exposure.

If you properly aerate/oxygenate, then it's not an issue. Metabisulfite reacts with oxygen to form sulfate.

Boiling does not remove sulfite.

You can see why, according to my water chemistry, why having more sodium and sulfate (without anything else) is a benefit.

You want to push sulfate past 245ppm and you're worried about 120ppm calcium?
Solution: Reduce the calcium chloride to zero and use sodium chloride to hit your desired chloride level.
You can then add additional calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate to hit your desired sulfate level.

Question: Have you done bench trials with these mineral levels to determine whether that's what you actually like?
That level of sulfate is definitely too high for my own taste.

.18. How many PPM do you think that is on Martin's sheet?

Parts per million is equivalent to mg/L.
0.18g = 180mg
7.6gal = 28.8L

180mg / 28.8L = 6.3ppm

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks. I'll record that as a baseline.

As far as bench trials.....I figured Martin has more experience than most of us, and if he calls for 300 PPG of sulfate for a pale/IPA profile, then I'm game....

Sounds like the way I have it calculated now should make a fine IPA. The answer is NO, I have no benched 150 PPG sulfate, 200 PPG sulfate, 250 PPG sulfate, and 300 PPG sulfate. According to the profile, I just get it highest that I can given my profile....

FWIW, I'm making a basic Orange Peel Citra Pale ale. 6.3%, brewed with sweet orange peel. If you have another idea of a sulfate level, then let me know. I am not picky when it comes to pales/IPAs. I like them all personally....

I'm printing this all out soon, and will host a brew day at my house with some people tomorrow morning. If you feel that something is way out of wack, please let me know now ASAP. appreciate the help!

FWIW, I could use canning salt...I typically use sea salt for this.

Recipe:

https://brewgr.com/recipe/76750/orange-peel-citra-pale-ale-ag-5g-recipe?public=true

 

[fendersrule]

Sounds like you would do something more like this. If so, let's roll.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Looks good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

FWIW, I could use canning salt...I typically use sea salt for this.

Regular non-iodized table salt is fine.

 

[fendersrule]

Yep. Basically any “real” salt is how I interpret that.

We dont have any processed crap salt in our house. Only craft salts here.

I’ll probably use pink himalya salt.

 

[RPh_Guy]