What's going on here? Bretts infection in every attempt at mead.

[Habs]

Stirring frequently to let off smells. SG is only at 1.049 right now. Maybe more nutrient? Smells bad to me. Kinda like bandaids. But sometimes wine puts off odd smells during ferment, perhaps this is normal?

 

[NeverDie]

If I were you I would have left the spring water in the bottle, not take it out to where you have known contamination problems to heat it. If you pour the honey directly into the bottle and shake it for 5 minutes, it will dissolve. I've done it numerous times. This is the so-called no boil approach. Nothing gets heated.

Since you're plagued by contamination, I'd even suggest you don't take SG measurements (yet another possible source of contamination). I'm sure some here will disagree with me on that, but let's face it: if you keep failing you'll eventually give up. All you need is a scale to weigh how much honey you've poured in, the total weight when it's all put together, and then interim weighings to measure how much has been fermented: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/weighing-your-bomm.663190/

In fact, don't even use an airlock. Just let the lid be loose so that your bottle doen't explode. It's good enough. Lots of people do it that way, especially for el cheapo bottles of store bought fruit juice derived wine. The same thing works here.

If you do it like that, I'd say there's practically zero chance of getting contaminated.

Good luck!

 

[Habs]

And here I thought I was being extra careful.

I never use airlocks, I confess to the flagrant use of fresh towels thrown over buckets.

I'll look into this scale thing. Thanks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

2-3 days lag time means you need better yeast handling. Rehydrate with GoFerm at proper temps.

Also, you added non-sanitized yeast nutrient? Who to say that's not the source of the contamination (assuming that's what you repeatedly have)?

Carefully consider everything that gets added to your mead or touches it and think "could microbes be living on this?"

 

[Habs]

Okay this is news to me. How do you sanitize yeast nutrient? I've been tossing it in my wine all willy nilly and never had a problem.

Or are you pulling my leg? Haha

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why couldn't wild microbes live in the yeast nutrient especially if you haven't been careful about what gets in there?

Dissolve it in some steaming hot water before adding.

I imagine there may be other aspects of your process that could use sanitation improvement as well, but I can only know as much about your process as you share.

One time I saw a winemaking video where a guy "sterilized" his equipment. He had it just lying there on the counter and he put his hands all over the siphon tube and then started the siphon by sucking on the end on the tube with his mouth. Of course this was after he was scooping mold out of his wine with bare hands.

I have some experience in clean rooms, sterile compounding, and testing cultures in microbiologist labs ... So this stuff comes a little easier for me than most people.
Assume microbes are everywhere until you hit it with adequate heat or a good non-rinse sanitizer on a thoroughly clean non-porous surface.

 

[Habs]

What I wouldn't give to have you come and nitpick my method. I kick the kids out (no one even breathe on me), close the door, wash up, then let nothing that touches wine touch anything that wasn't sanitized. Usually I sanitize a large 7 gallon bucket and everything stays in there until use, and then it gets sanitized again for when it sits around.

Yes, it seems feasible that wild microbes would live in yeast nutrient, I would just be afraid that high temperatures would cook off the nutrient, or something else rendering it ineffective. I don't know enough about it to throw it in hot water with much confidence, and this is the first time I've ever heard mention of such a thing.

The guy in that video you just described probably cleans his toilet with his own toothbrush, yeesh.

 

[bernardsmith]

You are also inviting infection when you open a pack of yeast remove a little close the pack and put it back in your fridge. You opened the pack so now the bacteria in the air have access. The yeast is likely to be include a little nutrient so the microbes have a food source. The fridge is very moist and humid and is kept at a relatively HIGH temperature (not -80 C , but about 38 F so well above freezing). Fermenting and brewing ain't surgery so you don't need to sterilize your equipment and raw materials but you do want to sanitize things and you do want to avoid unnecessary introduction of bacteria and mold that you have not planned for.
On one other note, pitching a full pack of yeast is not the cause of hydrogen sulfide. Stress yeast produce H2S. And yeast are stressed for all kinds of reasons- temperature; lack of nutrient; poor rehydration protocol; excess CO2 (puts physical stress on the cells and increases the acidity of the solution), to mention just a few reasons.

 

[NeverDie]

Yes, it seems feasible that wild microbes would live in yeast nutrient, I would just be afraid that high temperatures would cook off the nutrient, or something else rendering it ineffective. I don't know enough about it to throw it in hot water with much confidence...

I share the same concern. Do we know that the extreme heat needed to kill, say, Brett won't damage the nutrients/vitamins that you're trying to feed to the yeast?

I think it would be safer (easier?) to just get a fresh batch of nutrients/vitamins from a totally different source and try that. If your infections suddenly stop, then you've ID'd the source of the problem.

 

[yourlastchance89]

I share the same concern. Do we know that the extreme heat needed to kill, say, Brett won't damage the nutrients/vitamins that you're trying to feed to the yeast?

I think it would be safer (easier?) to just get a fresh batch of nutrients/vitamins from a totally different source and try that. If your infections suddenly stop, then you've ID'd the source of the problem.

I think Brett can be killed with boiling temps.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fact check time.

Brett is killed at standard pasteurization temps. Get the idea out of your head that any "extreme" measures are needed. The normal 20-40 PUs is plenty.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25989358

Does heat destroy necessary nutrients for yeast? Absolutely not. Brewers. Boil. Everything. Usually for an hour. The yeast still make beer.

 

[NeverDie]

OK, thanks for the correction.

Out of curiosity, then, why is the advice to throw away and replace your equipment or burn down your brewery and move 50 miles away if the answer is as easy as boiling your ingredients and equipment? Seems like there's a disconnect somewhere.

 

[Habs]

I got different information when I researched as well. The source I read said that significantly more than 150f was needed to kill bretts, and even then I've boiled everything before and the bretts still came back in my sugar water tests. (boiling is 212F). So I'm not sure what to think on that front. I know the biggest problem with wineries is that bretts infects oak, primarily, and obviously porous wood would be hard to disinfect.

I don't know what to think anymore. I'll keep an eye on that mead, which seems to smell kind of like sweet bread until I stir it, then woof. I'm hoping that my palette just picks up on bad smells more than good ones, and it's fine. Wine puts off strange, but normal, smells during primary, too. /shrug

 

[RPh_Guy]

why is the advice to throw away and replace your equipment or burn down your brewery and move 50 miles away...?

No reasonable modern brewer would suggest that.

Trust info from quality scientific sources.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Quality_Assurance

I've boiled everything before and the bretts still came back in my sugar water tests. (boiling is 212F). So I'm not sure what to think on that front.

The contamination (assuming you have one) obviously isn't from the must itself, but rather somewhere in your equipment or additives.

The source I read said that significantly more than 150f was needed to kill bretts

What source?
Live microbes simply don't withstand boiling. It matters whether it's dry vs wet heat.

 

[Maylar]

Habs - I really hope you get to the bottom of this. You're no stranger to sanitation protocols and what you're experiencing would be nothing less than a nightmare to me.
Good luck bro.

 

[Homergah]

There are some spores that survive in boiling temperatures.

There is a high temperature tolerant strain of clostridium, which produces butyric acid. While it can survive in boiling water, it is sensitive to ph below 4. Your wine must could be lower than that, your mead must, maybe not.
Butyric flavors range from very stinky cheese to vomit.

Enjoy your breakfast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

True, that is why I specified live microbes.

Clostridium (which forms spores; spores aren't alive) isn't considered a spoilage microbe in fermented beverages because of its pH, oxygen, and alcohol limitations.
It does not grow in the presence of oxygen (strict anerobe), so it won't grow before fermentation begins. Saccharomyces adjusts the pH downward so it doesn't grow after fermentation begins. PH 4.5 is generally low enough to adequately inhibit growth. Modest alcohol concentration also inhibits its growth (2-6% ABW).

Seems pretty unlikely to be the cause of the issue here in my opinion.

 

[Miraculix]

Did you include the nutrients in your sugar water tests ?

 

[Habs]

No reasonable modern brewer would suggest that.

Trust info from quality scientific sources.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Quality_Assurance


The contamination (assuming you have one) obviously isn't from the must itself, but rather somewhere in your equipment or additives.


What source?
Live microbes simply don't withstand boiling. It matters whether it's dry vs wet heat.

Okay, so, at the risk of boring you to tears, I'll explain how this happened. My first mead batch, maybe close to two years ago, took forever to ferment and eventually became infected. It infected my equipment, obviously. In my panic, I googled this brewing malady for hours and the only diagnosis that ever fit the symptoms was bretts, to which all solutions pointed to "throw it out." No sir.

Being raised by people whose motto in life was "waste not," I snapped on the rubber gloves and got to work trying everything I could think of to scour that bretts away. I bleached, then tested. Boiled, then tested. Baked, then tested. Scrubbed, then tested. It was during these tests that I realized two things. One, bretts could actually be seen on the hot, drying glass in the sun as small dots - biofilm, I believe. And two, my strong will alone did not negate the advice of better learned, wiser brewers than myself: throw it out. I was defeated.

Subsequent tests with new equipment have all lead to the same results. If I can't afford to replace it right now, it doesn't touch my mead.

Habs - I really hope you get to the bottom of this. You're no stranger to sanitation protocols and what you're experiencing would be nothing less than a nightmare to me.
Good luck bro.

Thanks. Hoping we'll clear this up soon.

There are some spores that survive in boiling temperatures.

There is a high temperature tolerant strain of clostridium, which produces butyric acid. While it can survive in boiling water, it is sensitive to ph below 4. Your wine must could be lower than that, your mead must, maybe not.
Butyric flavors range from very stinky cheese to vomit.

Enjoy your breakfast.

I'm a parent, stinky cheese and vomit are nothing compared to "come wipe my butt" while I'm shoveling food into my face.

Did you include the nutrients in your sugar water tests ?

No. Just sugar dissolved in boiling water, and a tight seal of plastic wrap over the top (not touching the sugar water) so that the test wouldn't be compromised.

But now that you mention it.... maybe another spring water bottle, with some sugar and yeast nutrient would yield answers.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sorry friend I don't know what to tell you.

Boiling, PBW/percarbonate soak on disassembled equipment, nothing abrasive on plastic, Star San on clean surfaces, and proper aseptic/clean technique should generally be enough to prevent contamination.
It's puzzling why you're having problems because it sounds like you're doing a lot of things right and trying to figure out the source.

Sit down before you read this. I make stuff with Brett, wild yeast, and bacteria all the time and it doesn't contaminate my clean batches. I maintain a yeast ranch of wild/Brett cultures. My long term Brett sours sit right next to where I bottle. I use the same bottling equipment for both clean and wild batches. In fact, I don't even clean my bottling bucket besides rinsing with hot tap water after use!
All this to say... I think there's hope once you determine the source; there has to be something. I don't think wild microbes in the surrounding area are a huge concern since we ALL have them.

Here's my bottling wand and rotating spigot broken down for soaking:

 

[Amadeo38]

I never use airlocks, I confess to the flagrant use of fresh towels thrown over buckets.

I wonder if this practice in combination with the long lag time for the yeast to start allows the contaminant to infiltrate? The only problem with this argument is that you covered the sugar water test with plastic wrap... Remind me where the yeast is coming from - a fresh satchet sanitized with starsan along with the scissors used to cut it open, I hope? Have you tried using goferm to decrease the lag time?

FWIW, I’ve boiled my nutrient additions in a shot glass worth of water before adding, and I’ve also just dumped them in straight. Never a problem. I’d say it’s a “safer is better than than sorry” situation even though it’s time consuming to boil and wait for the mixture to cool long enough before adding so as to not injure the fermenting yeast.

 

[Homergah]

Sit down before you read this. I make stuff with Brett, wild yeast, and bacteria all the time and it doesn't contaminate my clean batches. I maintain a yeast ranch of wild/Brett cultures. My long term Brett sours sit right next to where I bottle. I use the same bottling equipment for both clean and wild batches. In fact, I don't even clean my bottling bucket besides rinsing with hot tap water after use!
All this to say... I think there's hope once you determine the source; there has to be something. I don't think wild microbes in the surrounding area are a huge concern since we ALL have them.

Here's my bottling wand and rotating spigot broken down for soaking:
View attachment 618379

Exactly my experience. Except I don't yeast ranch. l cool ship my sours. I feel for the OP.

 

[NeverDie]

I wonder if this practice in combination with the long lag time for the yeast to start allows the contaminant to infiltrate? The only problem with this argument is that you covered the sugar water test with plastic wrap... Remind me where the yeast is coming from - a fresh satchet sanitized with starsan along with the scissors used to cut it open, I hope? Have you tried using goferm to decrease the lag time?

FWIW, I’ve boiled my nutrient additions in a shot glass worth of water before adding, and I’ve also just dumped them in straight. Never a problem. I’d say it’s a “safer is better than than sorry” situation even though it’s time consuming to boil and wait for the mixture to cool long enough before adding so as to not injure the fermenting yeast.

When I first read his post I thought maybe the Brett had infected his towels. Then air currents might possibly blow some Brett spores down from the towels into his must when he drapes the towels over his buckets.

Well, it's a thought. I don't know whether it has any merit or not.

This thread is better than a mystery novel! With all the clues now on the table, I'm aching to know what done it.

 

[Habs]

I wonder if this practice in combination with the long lag time for the yeast to start allows the contaminant to infiltrate? The only problem with this argument is that you covered the sugar water test with plastic wrap... Remind me where the yeast is coming from - a fresh satchet sanitized with starsan along with the scissors used to cut it open, I hope? Have you tried using goferm to decrease the lag time?

FWIW, I’ve boiled my nutrient additions in a shot glass worth of water before adding, and I’ve also just dumped them in straight. Never a problem. I’d say it’s a “safer is better than than sorry” situation even though it’s time consuming to boil and wait for the mixture to cool long enough before adding so as to not injure the fermenting yeast.

Well heck, at this point I'll try anything to solve the riddle.

When I first read his post I thought maybe the Brett had infected his towels. Then air currents might possibly blow some Brett spores down from the towels into his must when he drapes the towels over his buckets.

Well, it's a thought. I don't know whether it has any merit or not.

This thread is better than a mystery novel! With all the clues now on the table, I'm aching to know what done it.

I had reservations about the towels, too. But. My house is crazy dry thanks to a wood burning stove, so even after washing, residual moisture wouldn't remain on towels for things to breed. And I bleach them, which I'm pretty sure kills just about everything. And I make plenty of wines this way, both fruit wines and kit wines, and no contamination.

So just out of curiosity, mead isn't supposed to smell sour like bandaids? I mean maybe all this time it's been fine and I just don't like the smell. Otherwise, I'm about to go introduce a gallon of infected mead to my compost pile. For my next trick: dumping honey straight into the spring water bottle and dry pitching yeast.

 

[NeverDie]

So just out of curiosity, mead isn't supposed to smell sour like bandaids?

Nope.

I think you'll like the "dumping honey straight into the spring water bottle and dry pitching yeast" method. You can throw together a mead very quickly that way.

 

[renrutle]

It's sour smelling, like vomit and bandaids and horses.

So just out of curiosity, mead isn't supposed to smell sour like bandaids?

I initially thought chlorine due to bandaid but chlorophenols should not leave a film or smell like horses or vomit. Do you have a someone in your area that you could take a sample to? A second nose and set of eyes may be of benefit in narrowing down the culprit.
Does it smell like rhino-farts?

How is your mead process different from your wine process? I assume they should be similar:

Add must/honey to fermenter.
Add water to volume.
Add nutrients.
Add yeast.
Cover with cloth or airlock.

Are there any differences in your fermenting process between wine and mead? Same temp, location in house, etc.

Is the honey locally sourced or from a home-brew shop? If the honey has a water content of more that ~20% micro-organisms could grow in it. I pick up honey from my LHBS in a sanitized plastic container. Do you sanitize the container you get your honey in? If the water content is less that ~20% this should not matter much though.

and my sugar water tests continually made more bretts.

Would you describe your sugar test.

I started a test batch 2 days ago a for another project with about 2.5# of sugar in a gallon carboy, OG 1.102 With nutrients and half a packet of RedStar Premier Blanc I had a vigorous fermentation going at the 24 hour point. Temp is ~69F. Does your mead and/or sugar fermentation show good signs within 24 hours?

 

[NeverDie]

Well heck, at this point I'll try anything to solve the riddle.



I had reservations about the towels, too. But. My house is crazy dry thanks to a wood burning stove, so even after washing, residual moisture wouldn't remain on towels for things to breed. And I bleach them, which I'm pretty sure kills just about everything. And I make plenty of wines this way, both fruit wines and kit wines, and no contamination.

So just out of curiosity, mead isn't supposed to smell sour like bandaids? I mean maybe all this time it's been fine and I just don't like the smell. Otherwise, I'm about to go introduce a gallon of infected mead to my compost pile. For my next trick: dumping honey straight into the spring water bottle and dry pitching yeast.

Did you ever sort it out?

Today I had my first "band-aid" mead, and, yuck!, that taste is nasty. It was an EC-1118 yeast which had somehow stalled early in the fermentation process, and so I had pitched some more EC-1118, which got it moving again so that it finally fermented. I guess something stressed the yeast, but I have no idea what. It's not worth salvaging, so down the drain it goes.