Brewdouche-RuBrew
Well-Known Member
This is a situation thats call for chaotic justice.
Use your own imagination soes I dont incriminate myself.
Use your own imagination soes I dont incriminate myself.
What would you do if your local Brewery did this to you???
- Thread starter Budzu
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They might have felt that because they weren't paying you, that they were giving you credit by keeping the name? Perhaps you just jumped to conclusions too early, without talking to the brewery more?
This story loses weight the more I hear about it.
Hannable1975
Well-Known Member
Don't want to sound silly - but how is this much different from Home Brewers' reverse engineering or making "clones".
The Name thing I get - I'd ask them politely to remove my name , OR to use the term " Inspired By" as a nod to your talent while not puttin the mark directly upon you.
Either way, good luck.
The Name thing I get - I'd ask them politely to remove my name , OR to use the term " Inspired By" as a nod to your talent while not puttin the mark directly upon you.
Either way, good luck.
Dunerunner
Well-Known Member
stubbornman
Well-Known Member
Home brewers don't advertise and sell their clone beers.
ahave
Well-Known Member
I don't think you can do anything legally, but this is certainly some shady business practice that I am sure other people might want to hear about.
I know someone that used to work as a journalist in the chatt-town area (I am assuming that is where this took place). Let me know if you want to make some phone calls and get you in touch with some press.
I know someone that used to work as a journalist in the chatt-town area (I am assuming that is where this took place). Let me know if you want to make some phone calls and get you in touch with some press.
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DocBrown
Well-Known Member
I was initially siding with the homebrewer on this, but after thinking about it more, I'm far less unhappy with the brewery. Here's the thing: According to his statements in this thread, the compensation was to be for his time, and presumably for using his equipment to perform the mash. It turns out that he didn't need to give his time or his equipment, so the brewery doesn't owe him anything from that end.
My guess is that the brewery recognized that it was a great recipe. They felt that since it was already in the public domain and it's pretty well accepted that published beer recipes are open for any and all to use, they were free to brew that recipe as they wished. But, they wanted to give a nod to the guy that came up with it, and perhaps they figured that letting him do the mash while paying him for time and equipment rental would be a nice gesture. When they got a quote from him though, the price was apparently well beyond what they were expecting. They probably sat back and thought:
Honestly, they could have just grabbed his recipe and started using it without telling anyone where it came from. They were trying to be nice about it and probably felt like they were being taken advantage of. There are other commercial breweries that have close ties to the local homebrewing community. I don't think I've ever heard of a brewery paying homebrewers for the recipes! A new local brewery here in Huntsville (Straight to Ale) is setting up a program where they'll let homebrewers that have come up with really great recipes come to the brewery and make a batch of that beer. The brewery pays for ingredients and receives any profits from the beer. They also reserve the right to brew that recipe at any point in the future. But the homebrewer has the satisfaction of seeing his beer being purchased in local bars and the bragging rights for coming up with a commercially viable recipe.
If it was me in the situation outlined in the thread, I'd probably initially be a little annoyed that the brewery opted not to pay me to brew this recipe I'd come up with, but I'd chill out and sit back with some pride at knowing that my beer was so good that they'd want to brew in themselves. I really think the brewery was operating in good faith and thought they were doing a nice thing for this guy. If you start trying to make an issue of it, you're going to just turn them into enemies. They certainly won't be interested in doing favors for you in the future (as in, no more yeast from the brewery). Just let it go. RDWHAHB
My guess is that the brewery recognized that it was a great recipe. They felt that since it was already in the public domain and it's pretty well accepted that published beer recipes are open for any and all to use, they were free to brew that recipe as they wished. But, they wanted to give a nod to the guy that came up with it, and perhaps they figured that letting him do the mash while paying him for time and equipment rental would be a nice gesture. When they got a quote from him though, the price was apparently well beyond what they were expecting. They probably sat back and thought:
Honestly, they could have just grabbed his recipe and started using it without telling anyone where it came from. They were trying to be nice about it and probably felt like they were being taken advantage of. There are other commercial breweries that have close ties to the local homebrewing community. I don't think I've ever heard of a brewery paying homebrewers for the recipes! A new local brewery here in Huntsville (Straight to Ale) is setting up a program where they'll let homebrewers that have come up with really great recipes come to the brewery and make a batch of that beer. The brewery pays for ingredients and receives any profits from the beer. They also reserve the right to brew that recipe at any point in the future. But the homebrewer has the satisfaction of seeing his beer being purchased in local bars and the bragging rights for coming up with a commercially viable recipe.
If it was me in the situation outlined in the thread, I'd probably initially be a little annoyed that the brewery opted not to pay me to brew this recipe I'd come up with, but I'd chill out and sit back with some pride at knowing that my beer was so good that they'd want to brew in themselves. I really think the brewery was operating in good faith and thought they were doing a nice thing for this guy. If you start trying to make an issue of it, you're going to just turn them into enemies. They certainly won't be interested in doing favors for you in the future (as in, no more yeast from the brewery). Just let it go. RDWHAHB
I think Doc mostly nailed it, although I'm still thinking that the originally proposed arrangement (buying wort from what's basically an unlicensed brewery) may have been legally questionable. It might not have just been a matter of settling on fair compensation, they may have been advised against it on those grounds.
dale1038
Well-Known Member
Recipes don't mean s**t! You could give 10 commercial breweries the same recipe and they'd all come out different. It's the brewer that makes the beer, not the recipe.
OP
OP
Budzu
Well-Known Member
Wasn't looking for anyone to "side" with me. Neither had I ever considered legal action. I just wanted people reactions. Some reactions obviously were pretty strong and passionate. I took it kind of personally yesterday when I saw that it was brewed to completion before I'd heard about it. I'm sure as brewers you all can understand mixed feelings involved so I wanted to share.
That said, the brewery has now honored my request that my name not be used. They're changing the name to something their own. I'm cool with the way things have turned out. I wish the brewery had included me in the process at least, but having been in the dark, I couldn't receive credit for the brew.
Thanks for the responses
That said, the brewery has now honored my request that my name not be used. They're changing the name to something their own. I'm cool with the way things have turned out. I wish the brewery had included me in the process at least, but having been in the dark, I couldn't receive credit for the brew.
Thanks for the responses
Brewdouche-RuBrew
Well-Known Member
You got it there, process determines the beer almost as much as the recipe, but on the surface this does seem crappy. Sounds almost like the brewer should have had a little more forthought about the boundries, and agreement here, and the result is that the HBTer is left only with bragging rights, and and empty pocket.
dale1038
Well-Known Member
You got it there, process determines the beer almost as much as the recipe, but on the surface this does seem crappy. Sounds almost like the brewer should have had a little more forthought about the boundries, and agreement here, and the result is that the HBTer is left only with bragging rights, and and empty pocket.
Yeah, I was just being confrontational on purpose. I would probably be pissed, and I guess surprised if the commercial brewery would produce as good of a beer. I like that the HBT'ers name is taken off. :rockin:
There are some commercial outfits around here that are making some good beer, but none of it has much to do with recipes imho.
Couldn't agree more... Well stated
This. If I knew a local brewery around here had done that then I would boycott them.
carnevoodoo
Well-Known Member
I've read recipes and heard people like Jamil say, "this recipe has been brewed by several breweries and..." and it is never an issue. I think this is really someone feeling left out of the party.
My take on the above opinion is that you could give 10 commercial breweries the same recipe and they'd all come out different - if they all brewed them differently.
If you used the same ingredients, timings, temps and volumes, they'd all come out exactly the same. There ain't no magic Brewers Wand that makes a beer taste differently because I brewed it.
That being said, the person that published the recipe is out of luck.
mullenite
Well-Known Member
The equipment does make a factor which is what most people are alluding to when they say something like this.
Brewdouche-RuBrew
Well-Known Member
Jamil, dont need no stinking bragging rights, or money, or fame for that matter.
I'd be angry beyond belief.
I'd be angry beyond belief.
Sigafoos
Well-Known Member
Legal issues aside (and again: I see no way in which brewing off-site on personal equipment is legal): the brewery does seem like dicks for not at least keeping in touch. I don't care what you have to do, or don't have to do, if you decide to end negotiations just give the person a heads up. All of a sudden disappearing and then reappearing with a batch of the stuff you were debating paying for but decided not to makes you seem way more in the wrong than you should.
But seriously: it'd have to have been brewed there all along.
But seriously: it'd have to have been brewed there all along.
Cpt_Kirks
Well-Known Member
What was the name of the brewery?
Sounds like I will be avoiding their products.
What they did, while probably legal, was a lame move. Small businesses that pull crap like that tend to go out of business.
Sounds like I will be avoiding their products.
What they did, while probably legal, was a lame move. Small businesses that pull crap like that tend to go out of business.
rhoadsrage
Well-Known Member
What was the name of the brewery?
Sounds like I will be avoiding their products.
They tweeted it and it's posted on their homepage also.
To O.P. I would just talk to them and let them know how you feel. One way to make it up to you, offer to brew another recipe with them and enter it in a pro-am competition. You get some public redemption and there won't be any more mallice.
It really sounds to me that the only thing the brewery did wrong was not talk to you.
They couldn't pay you to make the beer on your own equipment. They *could* have bought the rights to your recipe, but we all know that recipes are worth essentially nothing.
You didn't *lose* anything, you have no damages. I don't see how your name needs any "redemption" (I'm assuming it was a good beer).
I guess in the end, I'd approach them and say that I was annoyed that my name was used without my permission, and that in the future I'd like to receive some royalties. Payable in growlers is fine.
I just don't see this as being that big a deal. Bad communication, that's about it.
They couldn't pay you to make the beer on your own equipment. They *could* have bought the rights to your recipe, but we all know that recipes are worth essentially nothing.
You didn't *lose* anything, you have no damages. I don't see how your name needs any "redemption" (I'm assuming it was a good beer).
I guess in the end, I'd approach them and say that I was annoyed that my name was used without my permission, and that in the future I'd like to receive some royalties. Payable in growlers is fine.
I just don't see this as being that big a deal. Bad communication, that's about it.
robertbartsch
Well-Known Member
Oral contracts are OK in most states but they are hard to enforce; what exactly did the contractual talks involve? If nothing was agreed that binds each party, then you have no grounds to sue.
I assume, giving someone a receipe does not mean that you have restricted its use and that they can't use it a make money.
I assume, giving someone a receipe does not mean that you have restricted its use and that they can't use it a make money.
rugman
Well-Known Member
i'm not sure how one can lay claim, trademark or patent a recipe particularly when that recipe is public knowledge since this was between a home brewer (not for profit personal personal use) Vs. a for profit brewery there's no basis for compensation. However, if the home brewer can prove value of recipe such as other interested parties he may have a case for loss of value.
Even if you don't have any legal ground to stand on, which you should check about anyways, you still have the option to publicize it and smear the brewery. Check with your local newspapers or news stations. Someone might be interested to hear about it
What's to smear, though? That they used his recipe and gave him credit for it? If they used his recipe and didn't give credit, alright...
I think he's angry that they purposely stole his recipe and sold it, after a failed negotiation. That'd certainly make me angry if it was mine. It's akin to stealing an invention. It'd be different if upfront they told him they weren't going to pay anything, etc, but they went behind his back and stole it more or less.
No, it's not.
The negotiations were for his time and the use of his equipment, which Sigafoos (who is in the middle of starting up his own professional brewery) confirmed is a no-no. You can't pay someone to brew beer commercially on their personal (unlicensed) equipment.
The value of the recipe itself... meh. How many exceptional beer recipes are out there, freely available? Hell, just take the number of recipes in JZ's book and divide it by the book's cost, that's about twenty- or twenty-five cents per recipe. Recipes, in and of themselves, have very little financial value.
Should they have called him up and said "Sorry we can't pay you to brew for us, mind if we make the beer ourselves and give you credit for it?" Of course they should have.
Is it worth getting pissed off about now, and trying to ruin this brewery's reputation?
The negotiations were for his time and the use of his equipment, which Sigafoos (who is in the middle of starting up his own professional brewery) confirmed is a no-no. You can't pay someone to brew beer commercially on their personal (unlicensed) equipment.
The value of the recipe itself... meh. How many exceptional beer recipes are out there, freely available? Hell, just take the number of recipes in JZ's book and divide it by the book's cost, that's about twenty- or twenty-five cents per recipe. Recipes, in and of themselves, have very little financial value.
Should they have called him up and said "Sorry we can't pay you to brew for us, mind if we make the beer ourselves and give you credit for it?" Of course they should have.
Is it worth getting pissed off about now, and trying to ruin this brewery's reputation?
I'm not saying he should just go out and smear them without a little fact-finding. Of course he should first talk to them about it, and atleast get some sort of understanding. Money is not even an issue in my argument. I think he's pretty much lost on that one. It just seems pretty crappy that they didn't tell him about what they were gonna do with his recipe.
JJL
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Well, I don't think that there are any legal avenues to pursue in terms of intellectual property. Someone else mentioned any minute details being changed in the recipe make it unique. Even scaling the recipe from 5 gals to 1 or 2 bbls or whatever technically changes the recipe. However, this guy does have a right to the use of his name. They can't just call it so-and-so's IPA without the guy giving permission to use his name in association with the product.
So, there are a couple of options:
1) Just suck it up (as someone else said) and be excited that he has a beer with his name on it out in the market. You could even use this publicity to drum up membership for your homebrew club or whatever. He might even figure out a way to profit from the publicity of his name and reputation.
2) Make the brewery call the beer something else. Again, he has the rights to the use of his name.
3) Just boycott the brewery if he's that upset about it. He can be as public or private as he wants about his boycott. He can call the media if he so desires. Although, I would be cautious about being too public about this. He was selling beer to a brewery. Granted, it might not technically be beer, so alcohol laws don't apply. However, it is a food product. My guess is that this guy isn't licensed for this. I'm also guessing that his brewing facilities don't meet the local health codes.
Personally, I think I'd opt for option 1, and figure out a way to make a buck off it myself.
So, there are a couple of options:
1) Just suck it up (as someone else said) and be excited that he has a beer with his name on it out in the market. You could even use this publicity to drum up membership for your homebrew club or whatever. He might even figure out a way to profit from the publicity of his name and reputation.
2) Make the brewery call the beer something else. Again, he has the rights to the use of his name.
3) Just boycott the brewery if he's that upset about it. He can be as public or private as he wants about his boycott. He can call the media if he so desires. Although, I would be cautious about being too public about this. He was selling beer to a brewery. Granted, it might not technically be beer, so alcohol laws don't apply. However, it is a food product. My guess is that this guy isn't licensed for this. I'm also guessing that his brewing facilities don't meet the local health codes.
Personally, I think I'd opt for option 1, and figure out a way to make a buck off it myself.
Boycott. End of story.
So, didn't the OP resolve this issue like two pages back?!!?!?
Priemus
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Do exactly what you are doing, but, disclose the name of the brewery
It was public information, they used it, not much you can do about it But tell everyone the story, rubbish em by word of mouth no need to goto a paper would probably back fire and they'd sue you.
If I heard that happened locally, I'd boycott that brewery and let all my friends know too. There is a brand of beer that is banned in my house, even at partys. People know they cant take it in here and consume it.
(long story, but basically they visited the brewery where I work having supplied the equipment for startup and asked my boss to fire me and another Kiwi because I wasn't Norwegian and they didn't want forigners working there. Dicks.)
It was public information, they used it, not much you can do about it But tell everyone the story, rubbish em by word of mouth no need to goto a paper would probably back fire and they'd sue you.
If I heard that happened locally, I'd boycott that brewery and let all my friends know too. There is a brand of beer that is banned in my house, even at partys. People know they cant take it in here and consume it.
(long story, but basically they visited the brewery where I work having supplied the equipment for startup and asked my boss to fire me and another Kiwi because I wasn't Norwegian and they didn't want forigners working there. Dicks.)
Egghead
Well-Known Member
So, didn't the OP resolve this issue like two pages back?!!?!?
Yes he did.
Recipes can't be copyrighted, and can only be patented if they have a unique process involved. There was nothing he could legally do about them brewing his recipe.
His name, likeness, and identity, however, are his; and he can legally defend them and prevent others from using them to commercially promote their products. He had the option of demanding that they cease and desist from using them, but he simply asked them to stop and they did. No legal recourse was necessary. He stuck up for his rights, and they respected them.
As far as I can tell, end of story.
So, didn't the OP resolve this issue like two pages back?!!?!?
Dammit, man, don't get between the lynch mob and the prison.
fredthecat
The original homebrewer™.
your first mistake was trusting in the good will of a corporation
also to be honest, beer recipes are not that tricky to duplicate, and they are.. brewers by trade, even the most subtle and unique differences can be nailed down after just a few batches
also to be honest, beer recipes are not that tricky to duplicate, and they are.. brewers by trade, even the most subtle and unique differences can be nailed down after just a few batches
Use the review feature on Google and any other web site that someone might use to find that particular brewpub.
If you're really spiteful register a domain name brewpubname-scam.com and say whatever you've got to say. Just make sure what you say is truth, as not to be libelous.
Put it in your brew club's newsletter or on their website. "How our member got screwed."
As others have said, there's not much you can do aside from making what happened known to those who would usually patronize the place and hope they sympathize.
My LHBS claims one of the local brewpubs started brewing and selling one of his kit recipes as their own.
If you're really spiteful register a domain name brewpubname-scam.com and say whatever you've got to say. Just make sure what you say is truth, as not to be libelous.
Put it in your brew club's newsletter or on their website. "How our member got screwed."
As others have said, there's not much you can do aside from making what happened known to those who would usually patronize the place and hope they sympathize.
My LHBS claims one of the local brewpubs started brewing and selling one of his kit recipes as their own.
I dunno, people have different definitions of "screwed" than I do...
Good point, you know what we have to do now don't you?
Burn the house down! Burn them all!!!!!
I would do what any 1980s movie would do. Get your group of brew buddies together put on some montage music build a brewery together. Then beat them at their own game by either beating them at a ski race or concert like in revenge of the nerds...that will teach them.
