What the heck to build? Electric or.....?

[Brocster]

Hi all,

I was hoping you could help me in narrowing down the type of brewery design and build I should be considering here shortly. I have read a ton of posts, searched this site and elsewhere for information, and have followed builds of other brewers here, but am still not sure the approach I want or should take.

Quick background and goals:

• Currently brew 10 gallon AG batches
• Use single mash infustion with a 15 gallon liquor tank and 15 gallon brew kettle
• Use a 70 qt Coleman Extreme cooler for mash
• Currently use propane
• Love to experiment and refine beers and style, shooting for better and better quality in my approach
• Have 6 beers on tap at all time
• Grow own hops and harvest yeast. Not that this is important overall, but just want to show that I like the "full-control" approach.
• Like large range of beers and styles

Also, I live in Minnesota, and usually brew in my garage and might make a brew room as an extension to the garage if I need. I can heat the garage so I do not have any need to have indoors. Although, that is an advantage of electric and may consider having the brew room inside if electric, indoors versus outdoors does not really matter. I do have fermentation temp control.

I am looking to begin building a nice "dream" system that will last into the forseeable future. I want something that will work awesome and be very funtional, and help me achieve a goal of producing high quality beers.

I work in the electrical/electrical automation industry and may have access to components and expertise in building control panels or other sub-systems.

I am open to Electric or Gas, and really am more concerned with capability of the system then using indoors. I can spend some decent money on the system, but I dont want to go over board on things that really don't add value. Other than some of the electrical control aspects, I can do everything myself, so I can and will be flexible in the layout and design.

So, given just that basic background, what type or types of systems should I be looking at? RIMS, HERMES, something else? Not even sure if I know the difference enough to really understand.

Another thing is electric versus gas - I am not sure which one makes the most sense given my goals.

I thank you ahead of time for those who reply. I really appreciate the direct knowledge and feedback that is given here, and, I am also looking for any advice on things I may not even be thinking of. I plan to start this project in the spring, so I want to start planning now.

Thanks!
Broc

 

[MultumInParvo]

Wow, this could be a pretty epic build...

What I personally think is the ultimate build is something along the lines of a single teer, HERMS, electric, automated, wood build for 10 gallon batches.

For ideas I would check out some of the builds already on the site. Scuba Steve(https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/scubas-herms-build-36267/), The Pol (WIP: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/kill-watt-brewery-build-compilation-158348/), and Blackheart (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/automated-herms-system-132119/) are some of the ones I like the look of the most.

There are all sorts of things out there. And I am sure some people who have actually built some rigs will chime in as well.

 

[Dog House Brew]

If I had it to do over again and had the service, I would go electric. I would also go larger than 70qt on the MLT or have a second small tun. I really like the idea of electric vs. gas especially for the reason of brewing indoors. Going RIMS is where I will go, but seeing I just finished abuild it will be some time before I change. My $.02

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

What is your budget. I think in your case a two step budget maybe makes sense... how much are you willing to spend to get up and running, and how much are you willing to spend once it is "complete"?

Without budget constraints, this is what I will build one day.

Total cost ~$3,200, cost to up and running ~$1,500.

In the mean time, this is what I am working with now.

Total bill of around a grand.

I have details and line item lists of these and other builds if you or anyone else are interested, PM me your email address and I will forward it to you.

 

[airbalancer]

I see no down side to going electric. Since your expertise lies in the field, go with what you know. RIMS or HERMS, it's all good.

I may be a bit bias

 

[Brocster]

What is your budget. I think in your case a two step budget maybe makes sense... how much are you willing to spend to get up and running, and how much are you willing to spend once it is "complete"?

Without budget constraints, this is what I will build one day.




Total cost ~$3,200, cost to up and running ~$1,500.




Total bill of around a grand.

I have details and line item lists of these and other builds if you or anyone else are interested, PM me your email address and I will forward it to you.

Thanks! I may need to get an accurate line item list for the build and appreciate the offer. I am interested in building a complete solution, something that will be in place for a long time, so I would lean towards getting the more expensive option(s).

I am trying to learn what makes a great system, what type of process is best and what type of equipment is then needed. Once I understand all of that, then I can plan and build.

Since this will be a "long-term" build, I want to make sure it is the right type for me because SWMBO will kick my butt if I come back with changes down the road!

 

[LKHA]

I just brewed with electric and it was a great I call mine a hybrid because when I get the stand done I plan on having it set up so I can slide a burner in and run propane and have all the pumps and sensors will run on 110 volt easy transport if needed.

 

[The Pol]

If you are going ground up... Id do electric. I am biased... I love electric, I used gas for years, electric is so much more efficient and clean.

If you do go electric, dont skimp on the amperage of your supply circuit... Id personally go no less than 50A. This will allow you to run 9000W in your BK which will boil 13 gallons from sparge temps in 10 minutes.

I love electric, it is clean, neat, easy to switch and control... ahhh, I love it.

I am building my second all electric rig and cant wait to plug it in!

I went with a small footprint Brutus 20 design this time...

If you can toss 3-4K into a system, you can have almost anything you imagine if you can DIY some things!

 

[Brocster]

If you are going ground up... Id do electric. I am biased... I love electric, I used gas for years, electric is so much more efficient and clean.

If you do go electric, dont skimp on the amperage of your supply circuit... Id personally go no less than 50A. This will allow you to run 9000W in your BK which will boil 13 gallons from sparge temps in 10 minutes.

I love electric, it is clean, neat, easy to switch and control... ahhh, I love it.

I am building my second all electric rig and cant wait to plug it in!

I went with a small footprint Brutus 20 design this time...

If you can toss 3-4K into a system, you can have almost anything you imagine if you can DIY some things!

That is one SWEET looking system, and I have to admit that I would love a system that mixes functionallity and looks/design! Nice job, btw...

Where would you suggest I go to really understand all the design considerations and operation "needs"? I conceptually get it, but I want to really make sure I nail the design and planning. I would like to get a handle on my costs as well as the home wiring and venting that I might need to build in.

I see a lot of keggles as the basis for all tuns and kettles. Do you think there are pros/cons to commercial pots or Blichman products versus kegs? I have 15 gallon SS pots right now, so one option would be to add another pot to have three total, maybe upping the BK to 20 gallons.

Thanks to everyone for the comments!!!!

 

[The Pol]

Well, each rig is different, there are many electric designs here that are worth copying to tell you the truth. I cannot point to a single place where you can get a good rundown on all of the NEEDS that you will have, as that will be based on what YOU personally want.

Part of the beauty of my system IMHO is the BCS controller... instead of a control panel on the rig, I will have a wireless control on my netbook that will control all the automation and temp. settings. Needed? No. See what I mean?

Best thing to do is ask questions as you go, there is a lot of help here and you can get numerous ideas on how to tackle a singular challenge and then decide for yourself as to what you would prefer.

Keggles are nice, but they are HEAVY. Great if you are putting a burner under them, but not necessary if you are all electric. Blichmans arent necessary, but they are designed and built geometrically for brewing, specifically. They arent chilli pots. Also, when you consider the design attributes and add all the standard features on the Blichman, you are getting what you pay for, you are.

Again, it all depends on what YOU want and need. That is the awesome thing about building your own rig, others may not have wet dreams about it, all that matters is that you do

I had a certain vision, a certain goal, when building this rig that I am 90% finished with.

What is your vision, what is your goal? What do YOU value most? Who cares about what we think, what do you want? You tell us and we can help you get there

Do you want HERMS? RIMS? Three kettles? Two kettles? How long do you want to wait to heat the strike water? How long to boil? How are you going to chill? Closed system? IC chiller? Plate chiller? Are you going to mount your elements horzontal? Vertical? How long will they be? Will you always have enough fluid in that vessel to keep them 100% submerged? The list goes on....

The only thing I can offer is this... plan it, plan it for a month or so... ask questions, think about how the parts will work together (or not work) because you will have design ideas that will be failures. The more you can "dry run" it in your head, the fewer $$ you will waste on parts that will simply not work.

On my first system, I had A LOT of misc. parts left over... some ideas just didnt work. On this system I have ONE part that is spare... it was just a brain fart, so I have a $4 piece of SS sitting here that I will never use.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Take Pol's advice and think about it and ask questions here. There are tons of great ideas here. The best thing is there are many great people here that are willing to help and share their ideas with you. Ask 5 people, get 5 different ideas and decide for yourself. Take the time to think, before you act. I didn't think and built a rig that I wish I could change and the burners haven't seen fire. I like the clean part of electric. I also like the energy being used going where you want it and not into the stucture and the air. The efficency of electric...........how can you go wrong with it.

 

[The Pol]

Think about this...

9000W in a kettle is 30,000 BTUs

That is the equivilent of a 120,000 BTU gas burner, honest... it is SICK the BTUs that are wasted with gas burners.

So, $1 - $2 of electricity for a brew session, or $8 of propane... not mentioning the trips to Uhaul to get the tanks filled.

Planning is the key, planning how each part will fit and how it will INTERACT or INTERFERE with the other parts. My Blichman BK took 2-3 HOURS just to lay out the holes for all of the components, so that they would work together. This was after a full month of planning and speculating.

Also, if you have a design and use measurements to lay the positions of parts or fittings... MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE PARTS OR FITTINGS THERE before you start drilling or making things permanent. Measurements are great, but the physical part is much more reliable than simple measurements.

 

[Brocster]

Take Pol's advice and think about it and ask questions here. There are tons of great ideas here. The best thing is there are many great people here that are willing to help and share their ideas with you. Ask 5 people, get 5 different ideas and decide for yourself. Take the time to think, before you act. I didn't think and built a rig that I wish I could change and the burners haven't seen fire. I like the clean part of electric. I also like the energy being used going where you want it and not into the stucture and the air. The efficency of electric...........how can you go wrong with it.

Thanks Dog House, Pol and others, I really appreciate the advice!! Especially the planning part - so true.

I would really like a three kettle system that can heat and move liqour and wort efficiently and accurately, and, look really nice doing it. I would like to invest in the right equipment to do so, including larger heating elements and well thought out controls.

I guess I got some planning to do.

There is so much out there that I am getting a little information overloaded. I guess I need to take things in smaller chunks and research out better. Things like new chilling techniques, how to heat, how (and why) recirculation should take place, and so on. I also need to look at how water will get to the system and ways to efficiently move to cleanup...

Man....this is going to be fun!

Thanks again, and I appreciate the patience as I ask questions in the future....


Cheers!!!

Broc

 

[Brocster]

Think about this...

9000W in a kettle is 30,000 BTUs

That is the equivilent of a 120,000 BTU gas burner, honest... it is SICK the BTUs that are wasted with gas burners.

So, $1 - $2 of electricity for a brew session, or $8 of propane... not mentioning the trips to Uhaul to get the tanks filled.

Planning is the key, planning how each part will fit and how it will INTERACT or INTERFERE with the other parts. My Blichman BK took 2-3 HOURS just to lay out the holes for all of the components, so that they would work together. This was after a full month of planning and speculating.

Also, if you have a design and use measurements to lay the positions of parts or fittings... MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE PARTS OR FITTINGS THERE before you start drilling or making things permanent. Measurements are great, but the physical part is much more reliable than simple measurements.

I do have a specific question(s) on Electric heating. What is the best source for heating elements, and what size/type of element should I really be looking at? And a follow on to that question...I would assume that I need an accurate temperature control that can switch the elements on and off automatically, correct?

I may be in the Automation industry, but as a sales and marketing dweeb, I know just enough to speak about things market wise. The actual technology is way above my head.

 

[The Pol]

I do have a specific question(s) on Electric heating. What is the best source for heating elements, and what size/type of element should I really be looking at? And a follow on to that question...I would assume that I need an accurate temperature control that can switch the elements on and off automatically, correct?

I may be in the Automation industry, but as a sales and marketing dweeb, I know just enough to speak about things market wise. The actual technology is way above my head.

I am a huge fan of CAMCO heating elements... the model 02583 in particular. It is a chrome like coated 4500W LWD element. It is 10.25" long and ONE is suitable for 10 gallon batches, TWO will give you a backup AND SUPER heating power if you want to save time. (13 gallons from 60F to boiling in 35 minutes!)

I would recommend using a PID and SSR to control the element. The PID is the temp. control, the SSR is the external switch that is conrtrolled by the PID. Very easy to install.

PID = $45
SSR and Heatsink = $20-$40
Element = $11

 

[Brocster]

I am a huge fan of CAMCO heating elements... the model 02583 in particular. It is a chrome like coated 4500W LWD element. It is 10.25" long and ONE is suitable for 10 gallon batches, TWO will give you a backup AND SUPER heating power if you want to save time. (13 gallons from 60F to boiling in 35 minutes!)

I would recommend using a PID and SSR to control the element. The PID is the temp. control, the SSR is the external switch that is conrtrolled by the PID. Very easy to install.

PID = $45
SSR and Heatsink = $20-$40
Element = $11

Thanks! I "inherited" 6 PID's from a customer of ours, and I'll look up some SSR's. I am trying to barter with these guys to make me a panel in exchange for a few cases of homebrew.

They are OMRON E5CJ's.

I am thinking of designing a general panel system that controls everything, so I will have to lay out the components to see what I will all need. I will probably enclose in a SS 4x enclosure.
I'd like to, generally speaking, be able to input the general parameters of the brew schedule, then let the system take over with ability to override at any time.

I'll need some type of timer capability and a switching component to control the pumps and PID's.

 

[pickles]

"What is the best source for heating elements, and what size/type of element should I really be looking at?"

Best source? Not sure. Worst source: Amazon.com!

 

[The Pol]

"What is the best source for heating elements, and what size/type of element should I really be looking at?"

Best source? Not sure. Worst source: Amazon.com!

TRUE DAT!

OP, make sure your PIDs have SSR output and not only relay...

 

[Munsoned]

I'm also in the very preliminary stages of thinking through a brewstand/brewhouse setup. I will probably be moving to a new home in the next 6-12 months, so I do not intend to do anything until I find and move into my next place. However, once I find a new house, here is my way of thinking these initial issues through:

The very first thing to think about (for me at least) is where I intend to brew. Basement, garage, back patio, driveway, etc. This might be dictated by SWMBO, or maybe I'll have some options. Either way, the environmental variables from that decision will dictate the rest of my setup: 1) I will not brew with electricity in an unprotected area outside (i.e., on a deck or patio)--I've been caught in the rain WAY too many times; 2) I will not use high pressure propane inside the house; 3) I could use natural gas inside the house (if available) with adequate ventilation; 4) In a garage, with proper ventilation, I could see myself using either electricity or NG, or propane (again, with adequate protections). Thus, the function of the system will necessarily follow the location where it will be used, and the natural limitations and benefits of that location.

After making that very basic initial decision, I can then decide what system to use. RIMS, from what I understand, requires an electric heating element. HERMS systems can be either electric or propane for the base heating system.

From there, I can then decide whether I have sufficent electrical capacity, if the electiric panel can handle another 240V circuit, if I have a nearby natural gas line to tap into, if the area is a good candidate for a sub-panel, etc.

From there, the design decisions for the brewstand/area itself may be easier to think through...

 

[bendavanza]

My brewery is slowly moving towards electric. I'm starting by adding a RIMS tube and pump, the PID etc just arrived. Propane is a PITA with the refills, wasted BTU's and cost per BTU. Once I get this PID / RIMS thing sorted I'll be looking towards automating the rest with electricity, and probably change from the 3 tier to 1 or 2 tier.

 

[The Pol]

Cost per BTU is lower, and you need 1/4 the BTUs... yup, it is so nice, it is really getting popular.

 

[Munsoned]

Agreed. If I can make electricity work in my next place (i.e., get some room in a garage or basement or something), that is the route I will probably want to go. The improvements in efficiency seem tremendous, and the ability to automate is an added bonus for me...

Of course, you can automate a propane setup, but it will still require electricity to do so...

 

[The Pol]

Yeah, electricity is easier to automate IMHO, since you need electricity to automate gas... why not cut out the middle man (gas)

 

[Brocster]

Yeah, electricity is easier to automate IMHO, since you need electricity to automate gas... why not cut out the middle man (gas)

Just curious....what is the unit cost difference between PG and NG?

Also...how long can a heating element be expected to last?

Thanks again...This post just proves how awesome HBT is. I have never seen a more helpfull group of users, on this thread or others.

Brewers rule!

 

[The Pol]

Just curious....what is the unit cost difference between PG and NG?

Also...how long can a heating element be expected to last?

Thanks again...This post just proves how awesome HBT is. I have never seen a more helpfull group of users, on this thread or others.

Brewers rule!

Have no idea the unit cost difference between NG and LP... Heating elements... well, think about an electric water heater, that is cycling all day, 365 days a year. As long as you dont run the heating element dry and melt it... you may never ever replace it. I have never replaced one.

 

[Rubberband]

I certainly don't want to to hijack this thread, because I have many of the same questions as Brocster. I'm interested in a single tier system as well but I was thinking about Rims and gas mix. Eventually, I might go fully electric.

One thing that I haven't see is a single tier system with a drink cooler for the MLT. I don't know that I would need a HLT but I would have the kettle for it anyway. I'm thinking that I can build the system and use my current equipment, two 10 gal kettles and a 10 gal. drink cooler. I want to build up to fully automated from a manual system. It's just that every single tier I see consists of three kettles or keggles. I plan to buy two burners, two pumps, and to build the stand in the coming months, is there a system out there similar to what I am describing?

 

[bendavanza]

Yes some use coolers on single tier, you may need to shield it from the heat of the burners.

 

[Synovia]

Think about this...

9000W in a kettle is 30,000 BTUs

That is the equivilent of a 120,000 BTU gas burner, honest... it is SICK the BTUs that are wasted with gas burners.

Its more than that though, because its so easy to insulate an electric kettle, while its very difficult to insulate a propane kettle.

 

[Brocster]

I am a huge fan of CAMCO heating elements... the model 02583 in particular. It is a chrome like coated 4500W LWD element. It is 10.25" long and ONE is suitable for 10 gallon batches, TWO will give you a backup AND SUPER heating power if you want to save time. (13 gallons from 60F to boiling in 35 minutes!)

I would recommend using a PID and SSR to control the element. The PID is the temp. control, the SSR is the external switch that is conrtrolled by the PID. Very easy to install.

PID = $45
SSR and Heatsink = $20-$40
Element = $11

Pol-

So, would you recommend 3 4500w heating elements? 1 for the LT and 2 for the BK? I am going to assume at this point that I will have 3 15 gallon pots.

Also, while I understand that I need PID's and SSR's for controlling the heating elements, is there a "master" controller that would be able to coordinate timing to control the heating capabilitites as well as pumping capabilities?

And, are my PID's, OMRON E5CJ's, the type that I would need?

Thanks to everyone for putting up with my questions. This is all new to me.

Cheers!

 

[JayInJersey]

While I haven't started building mine...I can't stress the importance of planning
I actually consider it slightly more fun than the building.

I've got about 20 pieces of paper/napkins/post-its with doodles on them thinking and rethinking my rig (Which I have given a Plug-In date of 1/1/2011)

I'd definitely have to say this is a 6P task.

 

[CodeRage]

Pol-

So, would you recommend 3 4500w heating elements? 1 for the LT and 2 for the BK? I am going to assume at this point that I will have 3 15 gallon pots.

Also, while I understand that I need PID's and SSR's for controlling the heating elements, is there a "master" controller that would be able to coordinate timing to control the heating capabilitites as well as pumping capabilities?

And, are my PID's, OMRON E5CJ's, the type that I would need?

Thanks to everyone for putting up with my questions. This is all new to me.

Cheers!

Polls 9kw elements are in his RIMS unit, which is for hot water on demand. Trying to raise the volumetric flow of water x many degrees in one pass takes a butt load of BTUS.

With 3 vessels it sounds like you are setting up for a HERMs? (send the mash through a heat exchanger immersed in your heat source). At 15gal you wont be doing much more than 10 gal post boil batches.


With that said, one 4500 to 5500 in the BK (10 gal batches go with the 5500).
Your service is what is going to determine your Watt budget and the BK is going to take a good portion of it. So what ever you have left, put into the HLT. If you wont run both elements at the same time you can go big in the HLT. So, 2kW to 5.5Kw in the HLT would suffice. If you are on the smaller end of the spectrum you will need insulation and patience. Of course on the higher end temp changes will occur much faster. Since you wont boil in your HLT the high wattage isn't a must.

As for your PIDs, I need the last 4 parts of the model number to figure out what the outputs are.

 

[Brocster]

Polls 9kw elements are in his RIMS unit, which is for hot water on demand. Trying to raise the volumetric flow of water x many degrees in one pass takes a butt load of BTUS.

With 3 vessels it sounds like you are setting up for a HERMs? (send the mash through a heat exchanger immersed in your heat source). At 15gal you wont be doing much more than 10 gal post boil batches.


With that said, one 4500 to 5500 in the BK (10 gal batches go with the 5500).
Your service is what is going to determine your Watt budget and the BK is going to take a good portion of it. So what ever you have left, put into the HLT. If you wont run both elements at the same time you can go big in the HLT. So, 2kW to 5.5Kw in the HLT would suffice. If you are on the smaller end of the spectrum you will need insulation and patience. Of course on the higher end temp changes will occur much faster. Since you wont boil in your HLT the high wattage isn't a must.

As for your PIDs, I need the last 4 parts of the model number to figure out what the outputs are.

Thank you very much for the reply!

I am still a little up in the air about the design, but I think I am leaning towards a 3 kettle HERMS design, but I have to admit it is more about my comfort with that type of system than the RIMS.

Here is a link to some information about the PID's I have.

http://datasheet.digchip.com/000/000-0-E5AJ-A2HB.pdf

I am really clueless as to the type of SSR's I would need, as well as the thermo couple. Since I would like to run two pumps, I would need some type of control for this as well I assume. I will do my best to research, but I really am starting from a low level of understanding.

As far as electric service, I will install what I need. I have a master electrician friend who would configure the service to my design. I would like the design to be efficient and robust, so I would rather put in good elements to have quicker responses and beef up the service versus downsizing the elements (if that makes sense).

Thanks!

 

[CodeRage]

Once you hit a 50A service things get real expensive when going up. So I would go with 5.5kW in the BK and 4.5kW in the HLT. It gives yah several amps to play with in the future.

FYI, I run a 5500W BK and 4500W RIMS on a 30A but I only run one element at a time. Doesn't slow my process down a bit.

Looking at those spec sheets again I realized that the control output on those PIDs are a separate module. You have to open up the PID and see what is installed. You need something of the E53-Q# variety.

As for temp probes, I avoid the thermocouples. They're good for quick response time but you are at the mercy of the circuit used to interface it which can really affect accuracy.

I would say a PT100 RTD or NTC thermistor, since this doesnt support thermistors, go with the pt100

 

[sjlammer]

Here is my setup.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/bcs-based-electric-brewery-build-version-1-1-a-156729/

I'm still tinkering with it, adding pumps, etc. but the basic layout works great.

I have two 120 V 2000 Watt heating elements in the HLT. I did it this way so i could move the HLT if i needed to. This way if i wanted to brew somewhere else, all i need to do is have a 20 amp circuit to plug my HLT into, then use a propane burner with my old BK.

My Electric BK has a 5500 W camco ULWD Ripple element. It heats super fast.

PS the BCS rocks. I would include it if you can.

 

[Cliff897]

If you do go electric, dont skimp on the amperage of your supply circuit... Id personally go no less than 50A. This will allow you to run 9000W in your BK which will boil 13 gallons from sparge temps in 10 minutes.

Looks like I'm going to have to install another sub panel.

Which if you think about it might be a good idea having the panel in the same local as the power consumption.

 

[Brocster]

Well,

I think I am getting a little closer. I am looking at a three kettle HERMS system, 15 gallon pots each.

I feel pretty lucky from an automation standpoint as it seems like I will be able to get all the electrical automation components for free. Instead of PID's, I will be able to utilize an Allen/Bradley PLC to time and control i/o for two 5500w heaters, 3 pumps, temp sensors and analogue temp displays. I will also be able to use the PLC to control water additions and amounts for mash and sparge. I think I will use a modified SS enclosure on a swing arm. A friend who is helping said the whole thing can be fully automated, but I assume I will need to take care of vorlaufing and mash stirring.

I just need to design the platform and get a design in order to build the hoses and disconnects. Since it is electric, I will move this into the basement and wire and plumb all needed items, and have a friend take care of the needed electrical supply.

Question for anyone that has brewed indoors: How well does a high power venting system take care of the brewing odors? This is what my wife will surely ask!

I am looking forward to it!!! Should be able to start soon. As the design gets in place, I will begin posting pics/drawings and lessons learned.

Cheers!