What no one wants to say

[user 348755]

That's like asking an MMA fighter if his sister is as ugly as everyone says she is...

There are risks but it's better than finding out the hard way.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Have a pickle beer while you ponder that question.

Ew. No.

 

[MaxStout]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

 

[Bramling Cross]

It's not everything (everything) is getting more valuable, it's that the dollar is getting less valuable. Or, rather, that after the dollar started decoupling from middle Eastern crude a couple of years ago, it's value is now inevitably floating down to the productivity of the US economy divided by the number of dollars denominating it. Probably it's got quite a ways to fall yet.

Or so I've heard. Anyway, we are poor now. Seems to me that, at some point, that should encourage Homebrewing. I think the future of the hobby will be more like the past than the present--more plastic buckets, less stainless steel.

Honestly those were great times though.

That's a really good post. Unfortunately, to pursue it further is likely not within the scope of this thread. But yeah, willfully destroying what remained of the Breton Woods system makes Brexit look like a little oppsie.

 

[An Ankoù]

Or so I've heard. Anyway, we are poor now. Seems to me that, at some point, that should encourage Homebrewing. I think the future of the hobby will be more like the past than the present--more plastic buckets, less stainless steel.

Honestly those were great times though.

I've got a garage full of stainless steel including a mash tun which will hold enough grain for a 50-60 litre batch, kettles of the same size and 4 SS conical fermenters.
I now use a cooler box for the mash, sparge through a large steamer top with a bag in it into a 36 litre SS kettle sat on a gas ring, and ferment in plastic fermentation bins.
The beer is every bit as good as when I used the other kit, everything is lighter and much easier to clean. I can clean my fermenters with dilute household bleach, which costs nothing, and know that everything the bleach has touched is well and truly dead. (Bleach should not be used on SS).
I was given two 10 litre kegs and bought a couple more because they're a really handy size, but I still use my old (40 year old) 5 gallon (23 litres) plastic pressure barrels and they work every bit as well.
It's the beer that's important. Spending loads of money on equipment won't make you a better brewer.

 

[Bassman2003]

I can clean my fermenters with dilute household bleach, which costs nothing, and know that everything the bleach has touched is well and truly dead. (Bleach should not be used on SS).

I agree to some extent. Basic brewing knowledge is the most important part.

Just wanted to clarify - Bleach is acting more like a sanitizer than a cleaner. It kills things but a cleaner like PBW works to remove things. Or physical scrubbing can help remove things.

 

[Agent]

Adequately strong bleach also works as a cleaner. Try soaking a used BIAB in a hot 1:10 bleach solution after a PBW soak and marvel as the grossness removed.

 

[BrewZer]

Adequately strong bleach also works as a cleaner. Try soaking a used BIAB in a hot 1:10 bleach solution after a PBW soak and marvel as the grossness removed.

I throw mine in the washing machine with a couple scoops of Oxyclean (or generic equivalent).

 

[Miraculix]

Adequately strong bleach also works as a cleaner. Try soaking a used BIAB in a hot 1:10 bleach solution after a PBW soak and marvel as the grossness removed.

I throw mine in the washing machine with a couple scoops of Oxyclean (or generic equivalent).

Sometimes oxy, sometimes bleach. Rotation is king!

 

[An Ankoù]

I agree to some extent. Basic brewing knowledge is the most important part.

Just wanted to clarify - Bleach is acting more like a sanitizer than a cleaner. It kills things but a cleaner like PBW works to remove things. Or physical scrubbing can help remove things.

Bleach, even without any added surfactants is quite a good cleaning agent. Against biofilms, it will break down the film, exposing the nasties and killing them, but it will often require the mechanical action of scrubbing to completely dislodge the film. Nothing like a good scrub.

 

[Bassman2003]

Bleach, even without any added surfactants is quite a good cleaning agent. Against biofilms, it will break down the film, exposing the nasties and killing them, but it will often require the mechanical action of scrubbing to completely dislodge the film. Nothing like a good scrub.

I can't disagree but PBW is like a good scrub! But bleach is more affordable.

 

[z-bob]

Bummer of a thread. I clicked on it thinking it might be tongue-twisters. "The sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick"

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I gotta say that I was a little bit surprised to read this perspective from someone twenty years younger than me, but I guess the "beer desert" thing is the explanation. Over the years I've gotten cheap and/or free equipment from a few guys who had stopped brewing basically for this reason, but they were all my age or older. One guy said he got into brewing when he got out of the army because after being stationed in Europe for most of six years he just couldn't make himself drink American beer anymore and most of the few imports you could find were stale by the time you got them. But twenty or thirty years later finding a variety of good beer just wasn't an issue anymore.

Yeah, understood. I'm sure my experience was far less of a "beer desert" than people had been experiencing 20 years earlier.

However, the specifics of Georgia at the time were a lot of it. Georgia had a number of blue laws. Everyone typically points to the "no Sunday sales", or dry counties, or limits on buying in supermarkets, etc, as specific blue laws. But the year before I first moved there, Georgia still had a 6% ABV cap on beer. It was simply illegal to sell anything higher. That was finally repealed in mid-2004.

Craft beer was expanding rapidly already by the mid-2000s. However, the practical effect of the 6% cap meant that breweries looking to expand their distribution were skipping Georgia. After all, setting up distribution to a new state requires a lot of regulatory and compliance costs. Why would choose to expand to Georgia instead of, say, Ohio or North Carolina (two states currently similar population to Georgia) that if a subset of their product lineup is illegal to sell? You'll get a higher ROI on expanding into states where you can sell your whole lineup.

So for the short time I lived there, 2005->2007, I actually watched Georgia's beer scene grow up. The number of out-of-state breweries I could find on the liquor store shelves was vastly increased in just those two years.

I don't think there's a state in the US, not even Utah, that can truly be called a "beer desert" today.

 

[MaxStout]

Even Utah has a decent beer culture. We drove through it in 2018, visiting the national parks there. Every town had a craft brewery. They worked well within the confines of the 4% ABV limit. Stouts, porters, British-style ales, session IPAs, etc. Just no imperial stouts or Doppelbocks.

The "Zion Curtain" thing was bizarre. By law there had to be some physical barrier between the patrons and the place where drinks were poured. No line of sight. Luckily, nobody put roofies in our drinks.

 

[lumpher]

The "Zion Curtain" thing was bizarre. By law there had to be some physical barrier between the patrons and the place where drinks were poured. No line of sight. Luckily, nobody put roofies in our drinks.

That's definitely weird. Here in Texas, we'll have someone watch our beer while we're doing dumb stuff. After all, this is the home of "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!!!"

 

[FloppyKnockers]

That's definitely weird. Here in Texas, we'll have someone watch our beer while we're doing dumb stuff. After all, this is the home of "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!!!"

 

[BrewZer]

That's definitely weird. Here in Texas, we'll have someone watch our beer while we're doing dumb stuff. After all, this is the home of "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!!!"

Lots of counties in Texas used to be "dry" and required "membership" in a "club" in order to purchase alcoholic beverages. Fortunately, most establishments had instant membership arrangements available to facilitate having a beer with your steak(s).

Also fortunately, there are only 4 counties still considered "dry."

 

[day_trippr]

I'm familiar with ^that paradigm^ from field trips around the South back in the 80s and 90s when system designers accompanied installation teams for the first few sites with a new product. It was traditional that the person that sold the system take the collective group out for dinner once the system was running and turned over to the customer, and between Texas and Louisiana there were lots of one night memberships bought at the favored "gentlemen's club".

 

[Lagerhead1]

How much lager could a lager head lager if a lager head could lager lager?

About 50 gallons a year…as a true lagerhead this is becoming way too personal!

 

[MaxStout]

About 50 gallons a year…as a true lagerhead this is becoming way too personal!

OK, folks, we just got the definitive answer to the question that's been bugging us. Someone hit the lights on the way out.

 

[An Ankoù]

Craft beer is declining. Homebrewing is dying. The macros are gaining market share while small breweries are closing. Everytime someone brings this up, there's alwasy somebody around to point out that this isn't true. But when compared to it's heyday, craft is on a major decline.

In my area, three micros closed their doors in the last year and the two closest to me are hurting and have too much debt. The largest homebrew shop near me has closed after 20 years of service at that location and another big one only opens once a week and has been sold and moved to another area.

The kids aren't drinking as much, the adults are sick of weird beers and are going back to BMC and the only thing on the shelves is an endless selection of terrible IPAs.

I don't care if this gets heat, I know a lot of people don't like to talk about it, but when an industry that was started by your local HBS largely only exists online, it's bad. There are any factors, but I think the major one is that most micros simply don't make good beer. It was enough when the market was growing and people were experimenting and willing to try anything, but these days, your roasted coffee oatmeal sour milk stout isn't going to pay the bills. I think a lot of people are being alienated by brewers with an endless appetite for innovation and wonky creativity and almost no regards for traditional processes, balance and quality control. I went on a mini beer pilgrimage not too long ago and of about 15 different styles of beer I drank, I remember only 3 or 4 that were well balanced, well elaborated and didn't suffer from some sort of defect. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to change any time soon when brewers seem to take more pride in pushing every convention to it's limit more than they take pride in selling a second serving of the same beer.

Anyway, rant over. I'll go back into hiding for now.

Thought I'd go back to the original post to remind myself what it is no one wants to say.
If I read it aright, there's a, big, lumpy paradox here: the O P says most commercial beer is cräp, while at the same time home brewing is declining.
Is it really? Does the closure of HBSs indicate a decline in home brewing or is it just a parallel to bookshops closing due to the likes of Amazon?

Im not denying that homebrewing is in decline, just wondering if it's really the case.

 

[day_trippr]

Im not denying that homebrewing is in decline, just wondering if it's really the case.

It's really the case. Certainly compared to, say, 2010, which imo was roughly Peak Homebrew, there has been a precipitous decline in the number of folks brewing at home. It's inarguable at this point...

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

It's really the case. Certainly compared to, say, 2010, which imo was roughly Peak Homebrew, there has been a precipitous decline in the number of folks brewing at home. It's inarguable at this point...

Cheers!

My skepticism of the claim is not about homebrewing declining from where it was, say, pre-Covid, but the claim that craft beer is declining... from what the OP called "its peak." As I pointed out, no matter what time you considered to be its peak (2010, 2015, 2018, etc.), there are more breweries in the US now than there were then.

And, as many have pointed out, it seems very likely that the decline in homebrewing may very well be connected to the increase in craft breweries, the increase in the availability of craft beers, the increase in the variety of craft beers, and so on and so forth. But even with a decrease in homebrewing, it's far from "dying." That's like claiming that baking bread at home is "dying" because fewer people are doing it.

(And before anyone says "You mean the DECREASE in the variety of craft beers, right?!", if I was in the US, I could go to Total Wine and More or BevMo or some local large liquor store with a good craft beer selection and find really obscure, unpopular beer styles in bottles or cans, even if they might not be on tap at any of the local breweries)

 

[corkybstewart]

It's time I got to the bottom of this because I just don't get it:
The barman gives you a short measure- 13oz instead of 16oz- and then you tip him 20%!!!!

Aren't measures regulated? If you order a pint, aren't you guaranteed a pint? Are the prices published in dollars per pint or just a non-specified "glass"? When you fill up your tank with petrol (gasoline?) do you pay per gallon or does the guy pull a figure out of the air?

Why do you tip if you don't want to?
What is a "tip screen"?
Just pay for your beer and tell the server to faff-off. What would happen if you didn't tip? Would they call the cops?
I've never tipped in a bar, ever, and I've never been asked to.
Sure, if the bar's quiet and I'm having a friendly chat with the landlord or barman I'll offer him a drink, but never a tip. I don't think we even have a facility for offering tips in a pub.

What's it all about?

It's about the food service industry having excellent lobbyists who have successfully maintained a drastically lower wage for servers, who must then depend on tips to survive.

 

[corkybstewart]

But in a country with nearly 10K breweries, nearly no geography is a "beer desert" today. Drinkers can find all sorts of obscure offerings at craft breweries, at restaurants which have craft on tap, and you can find craft beer on supermarket shelves and most liquor stores will have massive offering. Craft beer is pretty much ubiquitous now.

I guess I live in one of the last semi-beer desert areas. We get a few craft beers from Albuquerque/Santa Fe, stuff like Santa Fe Brewing and La Cumbre. But we only get one or 2 of their most popular offerings. Or Marble brewing-we only get their white, none of the beers I like from them. Occasionally we get Kilt Lifter from Arizona, or Fat Tire from Colorado. But that's about it. We have 2 microbreweries in our town. One has a dull, uninspired menu that hasn't changed in years, the other is open 3 or 4 days a week for a few hours at best. So it may not technically be a desert, but it's pretty close.

 

[Snuffy]

It seems to me that, in some cases, local tap rooms have decided to focus on brewing beer for people who don't like beer. I think the tap room scene is only there because there is some sort of requirement they have one on site in order to license a brewery. That whole "strap the kids in, grab the dog and let's go slam a few" thing seems irresponsible to me. I don't get the reasoning there. I guess if it's 4% and tastes like a popsicle then it's ok to drive the kiddies home with a buzz on.
And if you gave me the choice between stepping on a nail and trivia or karaoke, I would have to request more info about the nail. All you need to do to clear me out of a bar is to put some knucklehead on a microphone who demands my attention.<boom> "Tab please".

 

[BrewZer]

And if you gave me the choice between stepping on a nail and trivia or karaoke, I would have to request more info about the nail.

There's only a smidgeon of rust on it. Right at the sharp point.

 

[Snuffy]

There's only a smidgeon of rust on it. Right at the sharp point.

What size are we talkin? 10 penny? Roofing? Ring shank or mastic coated? Plywood or 2x4? Boots or sneakers? When was my last tetanus shot?

 

[MaxStout]

The 2024 stats from BA, with lots of neat graphs showing the trends. Basically, production volume and market share (Bbls) of craft beer down, but retail sales volume up (higher prices).

https://www.brewersassociation.org/statistics-and-data/national-beer-stats/

 

[worlddivides]

The 2024 stats from BA, with lots of neat graphs showing the trends. Basically, production volume and market share (Bbls) of craft beer down, but retail sales volume up (higher prices).

https://www.brewersassociation.org/statistics-and-data/national-beer-stats/

That's really interesting. That page has info that wasn't on any of the sites I looked at before. If we consider production to be what determined the "heyday" of craft beer, it would be 2019 with a drop in 2020 (likely due to Covid) and it then coming back up but only to 2017 levels in 2021 and then down now to roughly 2015 levels. Though overall, it looks like the massive rise essentially hit around 2014 and has stayed roughly around that level since then with the highest production volume in 2019.

 

[Zadkiel]

I'd have thought, if there was any correlation between craft beer sales/brewery numbers and homebrewing, that it would be an inverse relationship?

 

[dmtaylor]

I'd have thought, if there was any correlation between craft beer sales/brewery numbers and homebrewing, that it would be an inverse relationship?

Perhaps in some areas, but most places it seems more like a direct proportional relationship. It would be interesting to see a study on this, which I doubt exists.

 

[MaxStout]

The bar graphs showing openings vs closings of micros, brewpubs and taprooms is telling. Closings outpaced openings in all 3 categories in 2024. Not a good sign.

 

[Zadkiel]

Perhaps in some areas, but most places it seems more like a direct proportional relationship. It would be interesting to see a study on this, which I doubt exists.

I'd be interested in any study on that too. As I said, my assumption would be the reverse, that less craft breweries and less craft beer being sold commercially, would equate to an increase in people making their own.

Depends on what the driving factor for the closures is. I've heard that drinking has taken a HUGE drop in popularity in the young, particularly in the 18-25 range (remember I'm in the UK so our legal drinking age is 18) - if that's the reason, that the drinking population is dying off and not being replaced, then yeah, I can see it being a direct relationship, but if it's a more economic reason, that breweries are going out of business because of higher costs or reduced spending power, then I'd expect a more inverse relationship.

 

[Bassman2003]

The tap room business model centers around higher margins per beer as well as being out the outside looking in when it comes to distributors (many who are owned by the macros). So it makes sense to have a tap room but the difficult part is getting enough people to show up on a consistent basis.

The beer should be at its peak for freshness but as a world, we are staying home more than we used to. So it is a tough slog. Add in suspect brewing quality for some and young folks turning away from drinking and you have a rebalancing of the marketplace.

You have to ask - if you had your favorite beer/brewery fresh on tap in your town (for me it would be Triple Karmeliet or Augustiner helles) how often would you go and buy? Is that enough to sustain the establishment? It is an interesting question.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Is it [home brewing] really [in decline]? Does the closure of HBSs indicate a decline in home brewing or is it just a parallel to bookshops closing due to the likes of Amazon?

With regard to stores, maybe this peeked peaked when Northern Brewer was initially sold and bottomed out when Bell's General Store was closed (the store was part of the Bells Brewery but the store was opened before brewing started). There will likely be a churn in stores as this industry continues to adapt to the changing economic and demographic environment.

With regard to paid curated content (books, magazines) this may have 'peaked' around 2017 - many good books published in the 2015 - 2019 time frame. It is plausible that this market is 'mature' (much like amateur astronomy). In the last couple of years, two books have been published by expert USA-based brewers using a publisher in the UK.

With regard to online discussion, any attempts to measure it need to include all the possible online platforms. Activity will likely follow demographics.

Note to data collectors - the last dial-up call into AOL will be occurring in about 6 weeks.

 

[MaxStout]

With regard to paid curated content (books, magazines) this may have 'peaked' around 2017 - many good books published in the 2015 - 2019 time frame. It is plausible that this market is 'mature' (much like amateur astronomy). In the last couple of years, two books have been published by expert USA-based brewers using a publisher in the UK.

I think 98% of homebrewing topics have been adequately covered in books and magazines. You can tell by reading Zymurgy the past few years. They go off on tangents just to try to keep it fresh. AHA does cover new gear quite well.

I have a good collection of books, but I haven't seen much new ground covered in several years. Anything that can be written about has been written about.

I'm hard-pressed to think of many topics worthy of a new book. Perhaps a beginners to intermediate guide to all in one systems, and maybe sections on BIAB and electric brewing. Include DIY methods. A lot of new stuff since ca. 2015. While Zymurgy has covered lots of that recently, I don't see much of it in the existing books. But with the downturn in homebrewing, how many books would they sell?

 

[Zadkiel]

I'm hard-pressed to think of many topics worthy of a new book.

Enzyme use for the homebrewer? As I understand it, those used to be purely available to the pros - things like ALDC are relatively new to the homebrew world, correct?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Perhaps a beginners to intermediate guide to all in one systems, and maybe sections on BIAB and electric brewing.

Palmer (beginner to intermediate) & Zainasheff (intermediate) wrote books in those areas.

Haven't see Palmer's book (yet, USA suppliers of the book are stupidly expensive). My hope is that the book includes the simple and easy LODO techniques (YOS, Trifecta / OxBlox, mash cap, minimal splashing / transfers, etc).

Enzyme use for the homebrewer? As I understand it, those used to be purely available to the pros - things like ALDC are relatively new to the homebrew world, correct?

Too small for a book. Too early for most suppliers to have 5 gal sized product (although MoreBeer has some). Appeals to advanced brewers (who may or may not be willing to talk about what they are experimenting with). Currated content providers (e.g. CB&B, BYO) who provide seminars as well as magazines will likely use the content first in their seminars and then later in magazine articles.

 

[bwible]

Everyone typically points to the "no Sunday sales", or dry counties, or limits on buying in supermarkets, etc, as specific blue laws.

Pennsylvania also had these same “blue laws”. No sunday sales, no sales in supermarkets, no sales in gas stations as some places have. We have to buy beer in one store we call a beer distributor. Beer distributors are privately owned. For a very long time PA was a case state - you could only buy beer by the case. Unless you went to a bar. You could buy a 6 pack or a 40 oz from a bar for takeout. We have to buy wine and spirits in another chain of stores that are run by the state. There are no Total Wine stores in PA. They are in NJ and DE nearby. PA only in recent years has allowed supermarkets to sell beer and wine (no spirits) and there’s a tight oz limit on how much you can buy in the supermarket. They have a seperate register and they have to scan your drivers licence into their computer and its monitored. The other day I tried to buy a 15 pack of Ultra for my wife and a 4 pack of Backwoods Bastard and I was told it was over the limit. So my wife went back after me and bought the 4 pack. What was the point?

PA is called the Quaker State. Founded by the Quakers and much of it was religious sentiment. I’m not sure how much of that still exists. But its still not as easy to get anything here as it is down south. Last time I was in Georgia you could buy beer in gas stations and you could buy a case of beer in the Krogers.

My stepdaughter lives in Virginia Beach. Their laws are different again. They have ABC stores like our state stores but only for spirits. Their Total Wine only sells beer and wine. It was weird going there compared to the ones here.