What no one wants to say

[Bobby_M]

So to me it would make perfect sense that we see some decoupling of homebrewing and craft. The very thing that made homebrewing attractive then--a lack of commercial options--is what is making homebrewing less necessary now.

I think it might be somewhat true. It's hard to accept that people are motivated by different things than I am but I never started brewing because I couldn't find good beer and I haven't stopped because there is already too much good beer out there. There are plenty of good bagel shops in town but it doesn't stop me from making them at home. There are good coffee shops around here but I still roast beans. I think for most people, you either have a DIY spirit or you don't.

This topic comes up in my store. About 10% of my walk in business is CO2 and kegerator parts for people that don't brew but DO have home kegerators. They ask me why people make their own beer when there is so many places to get kegs.

Is it cheaper? Rarely.
Is it better? Sometimes.
Are you insane? Absolutely.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I think for most people, you either have a DIY spirit or you don't.

Agreed, and I certainly do. I cure , smoke, and slice my own bacon. It's not because I can't find quality bacon at the store. I just enjoy it, and it's really quite easy.

I think what people do or don't choose to DIY can be dependent on external factors such as commercial availability/quality, commercial product cost, startup equipment costs, learning curve to produce quality product yourself, etc etc.

I tend to DIY, but I don't do *everything* myself. Had I been 2006 version of myself dropped into 2025, with the massive amount of commercial craft beer available, I might have picked up a different DIY hobby than homebrewing. Or quit the hobby when I was still in the 5 gal stovetop stage without fermentation temp control, because it was difficult and my beer wasn't turning out great. Instead, I stuck with it, and now I can produce 10 gallons of high quality beer almost on autopilot, because I've been doing it since 2006 and I've got my process and system dialed in.

An example for me is breadmaking. I've tried to make a sourdough starter--and failed. I've tried to bake simple loaves with commercial yeast and they always seem to come out too dense... I don't get that nice airy crumb that I want. I keep saying I'm going to go back and keep trying, but then I'll go 6-8 months between trying to bake a couple loaves because they don't turn out the way I want. And that's something that basically takes zero equipment investment (at least beyond things I already owned)... If I'd bought a 5 gallon system for brewing today and was producing beer at the quality at which I produce bread--it simply wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good points. All that will be left is us tired, old Gen Xers who have the DIY spirit yelling at other beer drinkers to get off our lawn. (or corner of the nursing home rec room).

 

[mac_1103]

You simply couldn't find craft beer anywhere. And I started making my own, because there was NOT a craft beer scene anywhere near me.

So it wasn't just correlation--it was causation.

I gotta say that I was a little bit surprised to read this perspective from someone twenty years younger than me, but I guess the "beer desert" thing is the explanation. Over the years I've gotten cheap and/or free equipment from a few guys who had stopped brewing basically for this reason, but they were all my age or older. One guy said he got into brewing when he got out of the army because after being stationed in Europe for most of six years he just couldn't make himself drink American beer anymore and most of the few imports you could find were stale by the time you got them. But twenty or thirty years later finding a variety of good beer just wasn't an issue anymore.

 

[user 348755]

This thread is a fun read and I enjoyed the segue into "tipping" practices of so many tap rooms. Looks by @Bobby_M tied the two parts together by offering a solid " tip" for anyone wanting to open a LHBS. So, I thought - the next time I am at a local taproom and really disappointed in the beer, my tip will be "Other" ...something like
more malt, less hops.

No need to steal the neon sign. Hahaha

Lol. There are so many unscrupulous brewers out there that I had to ask one of them if his pilsner was an actual "pilsner" as in, was it really lagered? He didn't appreciate it.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Lol. There are so many unscrupulous brewers out there that I had to ask one of them if his pilsner was an actual "pilsner" as in, was it really lagered? He didn't appreciate it.

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

 

[Miraculix]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

BLASPHEMIE!

 

[BrewZer]

Lol. There are so many unscrupulous brewers out there that I had to ask one of them if his pilsner was an actual "pilsner" as in, was it really lagered? He didn't appreciate it.

That's like asking an MMA fighter if his sister is as ugly as everyone says she is...

 

[BrewZer]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

How much lager could a lager head lager if a lager head could lager lager?

 

[user 348755]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

Have a pickle beer while you ponder that question.

 

[user 348755]

That's like asking an MMA fighter if his sister is as ugly as everyone says she is...

There are risks but it's better than finding out the hard way.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Have a pickle beer while you ponder that question.

Ew. No.

 

[MaxStout]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

 

[Bramling Cross]

It's not everything (everything) is getting more valuable, it's that the dollar is getting less valuable. Or, rather, that after the dollar started decoupling from middle Eastern crude a couple of years ago, it's value is now inevitably floating down to the productivity of the US economy divided by the number of dollars denominating it. Probably it's got quite a ways to fall yet.

Or so I've heard. Anyway, we are poor now. Seems to me that, at some point, that should encourage Homebrewing. I think the future of the hobby will be more like the past than the present--more plastic buckets, less stainless steel.

Honestly those were great times though.

That's a really good post. Unfortunately, to pursue it further is likely not within the scope of this thread. But yeah, willfully destroying what remained of the Breton Woods system makes Brexit look like a little oppsie.

 

[An Ankoù]

Or so I've heard. Anyway, we are poor now. Seems to me that, at some point, that should encourage Homebrewing. I think the future of the hobby will be more like the past than the present--more plastic buckets, less stainless steel.

Honestly those were great times though.

I've got a garage full of stainless steel including a mash tun which will hold enough grain for a 50-60 litre batch, kettles of the same size and 4 SS conical fermenters.
I now use a cooler box for the mash, sparge through a large steamer top with a bag in it into a 36 litre SS kettle sat on a gas ring, and ferment in plastic fermentation bins.
The beer is every bit as good as when I used the other kit, everything is lighter and much easier to clean. I can clean my fermenters with dilute household bleach, which costs nothing, and know that everything the bleach has touched is well and truly dead. (Bleach should not be used on SS).
I was given two 10 litre kegs and bought a couple more because they're a really handy size, but I still use my old (40 year old) 5 gallon (23 litres) plastic pressure barrels and they work every bit as well.
It's the beer that's important. Spending loads of money on equipment won't make you a better brewer.

 

[Bassman2003]

I can clean my fermenters with dilute household bleach, which costs nothing, and know that everything the bleach has touched is well and truly dead. (Bleach should not be used on SS).

I agree to some extent. Basic brewing knowledge is the most important part.

Just wanted to clarify - Bleach is acting more like a sanitizer than a cleaner. It kills things but a cleaner like PBW works to remove things. Or physical scrubbing can help remove things.

 

[Agent]

Adequately strong bleach also works as a cleaner. Try soaking a used BIAB in a hot 1:10 bleach solution after a PBW soak and marvel as the grossness removed.

 

[BrewZer]

Adequately strong bleach also works as a cleaner. Try soaking a used BIAB in a hot 1:10 bleach solution after a PBW soak and marvel as the grossness removed.

I throw mine in the washing machine with a couple scoops of Oxyclean (or generic equivalent).

 

[Miraculix]

Adequately strong bleach also works as a cleaner. Try soaking a used BIAB in a hot 1:10 bleach solution after a PBW soak and marvel as the grossness removed.

I throw mine in the washing machine with a couple scoops of Oxyclean (or generic equivalent).

Sometimes oxy, sometimes bleach. Rotation is king!

 

[An Ankoù]

I agree to some extent. Basic brewing knowledge is the most important part.

Just wanted to clarify - Bleach is acting more like a sanitizer than a cleaner. It kills things but a cleaner like PBW works to remove things. Or physical scrubbing can help remove things.

Bleach, even without any added surfactants is quite a good cleaning agent. Against biofilms, it will break down the film, exposing the nasties and killing them, but it will often require the mechanical action of scrubbing to completely dislodge the film. Nothing like a good scrub.

 

[Bassman2003]

Bleach, even without any added surfactants is quite a good cleaning agent. Against biofilms, it will break down the film, exposing the nasties and killing them, but it will often require the mechanical action of scrubbing to completely dislodge the film. Nothing like a good scrub.

I can't disagree but PBW is like a good scrub! But bleach is more affordable.

 

[z-bob]

Bummer of a thread. I clicked on it thinking it might be tongue-twisters. "The sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick"

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I gotta say that I was a little bit surprised to read this perspective from someone twenty years younger than me, but I guess the "beer desert" thing is the explanation. Over the years I've gotten cheap and/or free equipment from a few guys who had stopped brewing basically for this reason, but they were all my age or older. One guy said he got into brewing when he got out of the army because after being stationed in Europe for most of six years he just couldn't make himself drink American beer anymore and most of the few imports you could find were stale by the time you got them. But twenty or thirty years later finding a variety of good beer just wasn't an issue anymore.

Yeah, understood. I'm sure my experience was far less of a "beer desert" than people had been experiencing 20 years earlier.

However, the specifics of Georgia at the time were a lot of it. Georgia had a number of blue laws. Everyone typically points to the "no Sunday sales", or dry counties, or limits on buying in supermarkets, etc, as specific blue laws. But the year before I first moved there, Georgia still had a 6% ABV cap on beer. It was simply illegal to sell anything higher. That was finally repealed in mid-2004.

Craft beer was expanding rapidly already by the mid-2000s. However, the practical effect of the 6% cap meant that breweries looking to expand their distribution were skipping Georgia. After all, setting up distribution to a new state requires a lot of regulatory and compliance costs. Why would choose to expand to Georgia instead of, say, Ohio or North Carolina (two states currently similar population to Georgia) that if a subset of their product lineup is illegal to sell? You'll get a higher ROI on expanding into states where you can sell your whole lineup.

So for the short time I lived there, 2005->2007, I actually watched Georgia's beer scene grow up. The number of out-of-state breweries I could find on the liquor store shelves was vastly increased in just those two years.

I don't think there's a state in the US, not even Utah, that can truly be called a "beer desert" today.

 

[MaxStout]

Even Utah has a decent beer culture. We drove through it in 2018, visiting the national parks there. Every town had a craft brewery. They worked well within the confines of the 4% ABV limit. Stouts, porters, British-style ales, session IPAs, etc. Just no imperial stouts or Doppelbocks.

The "Zion Curtain" thing was bizarre. By law there had to be some physical barrier between the patrons and the place where drinks were poured. No line of sight. Luckily, nobody put roofies in our drinks.

 

[lumpher]

The "Zion Curtain" thing was bizarre. By law there had to be some physical barrier between the patrons and the place where drinks were poured. No line of sight. Luckily, nobody put roofies in our drinks.

That's definitely weird. Here in Texas, we'll have someone watch our beer while we're doing dumb stuff. After all, this is the home of "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!!!"

 

[FloppyKnockers]

That's definitely weird. Here in Texas, we'll have someone watch our beer while we're doing dumb stuff. After all, this is the home of "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!!!"

 

[BrewZer]

That's definitely weird. Here in Texas, we'll have someone watch our beer while we're doing dumb stuff. After all, this is the home of "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!!!"

Lots of counties in Texas used to be "dry" and required "membership" in a "club" in order to purchase alcoholic beverages. Fortunately, most establishments had instant membership arrangements available to facilitate having a beer with your steak(s).

Also fortunately, there are only 4 counties still considered "dry."

 

[day_trippr]

I'm familiar with ^that paradigm^ from field trips around the South back in the 80s and 90s when system designers accompanied installation teams for the first few sites with a new product. It was traditional that the person that sold the system take the collective group out for dinner once the system was running and turned over to the customer, and between Texas and Louisiana there were lots of one night memberships bought at the favored "gentlemen's club".

 

[Lagerhead1]

How much lager could a lager head lager if a lager head could lager lager?

About 50 gallons a year…as a true lagerhead this is becoming way too personal!

 

[MaxStout]

About 50 gallons a year…as a true lagerhead this is becoming way too personal!

OK, folks, we just got the definitive answer to the question that's been bugging us. Someone hit the lights on the way out.