What is "Alt" beer

[Noob_Brewer]

@wepeeler those are decent scores IMO. Just curious with context. Based on the scoresheets comments, what was your calculated IBUs? Agree that based on the comments, they wanted a little more "amped" up version of your beer. They both talk about balance with a little low on maltiness. Given that comment and the low hop presence it would seem that both bitterness and maltiness could increase? Glad you got some decent comments for you to work off of though.

 

[wepeeler]

@wepeeler those are decent scores IMO. Just curious with context. Based on the scoresheets comments, what was your calculated IBUs? Agree that based on the comments, they wanted a little more "amped" up version of your beer. They both talk about balance with a little low on maltiness. Given that comment and the low hop presence it would seem that both bitterness and maltiness could increase? Glad you got some decent comments for you to work off of though.

It's a good beer

 

[dmtaylor]

It's a good beer

Looks good to me. I wouldn't change anything. Competitions are a crapshoot. If you entered the same beer again into another competition, you might get the same score with totally different comments, or might score a little higher than you got above, as your recipe is pretty much spot on.

 

[wepeeler]

Kegged up yet another Alt batch for a competition in May. Omega Kolsch II yeast this time around. First sample today was fantastic. Did a Kolsch with this yeast as well, and it's shaping up to be one of my best so far. Going to be very difficult to hang onto these for 2 months...

Beers were fermented at 66F for 14 and 13 days, respectively.

 

[Group W]

Kegged up yet another Alt batch for a competition in May. Omega Kolsch II yeast this time around. First sample today was fantastic. Did a Kolsch with this yeast as well, and it's shaping up to be one of my best so far. Going to be very difficult to hang onto these for 2 months...

Beers were fermented at 66F for 14 and 13 days, respectively.

I’m curious how much ester profile you are getting at 66F?

I’m doing a Kolsch now with dry Lallemand Kolsch yeast at 62F. So many years of brewing IPAs has me leery of going over 64F. When I brew a Dunkle I prefer to lean colder for clove over warmer for banana.

 

[dmtaylor]

When I brew a Dunkle I prefer to lean colder for clove over warmer for banana.

Ah... You mean dunkelweizen, as opposed to Munich dunkles.

 

[wepeeler]

I’m curious how much ester profile you are getting at 66F?

I’m doing a Kolsch now with dry Lallemand Kolsch yeast at 62F. So many years of brewing IPAs has me leery of going over 64F. When I brew a Dunkle I prefer to lean colder for clove over warmer for banana.

Omega Kolsch II best temp is supposedly between 65-69F. Warmer fermenter than regular Kolsch yeast and better floccing. Little to no sulfur. I kegged in 14 days from brew day. Kolsch II

I was debating on keeping it on the yeast for another week, as I've had sulfur issues with Wyeast 2565 and most people told me to leave it on the yeast longer to clean up. I emailed Omega and they told me that OKII throws very little sulfur, but to taste before packaging if I could. I decided to go for it and keg on day 14 and NO sulfur. Both the Alt and Kolsch are clean as a whistle. Not many esters, imo either.

 

[Spartan1979]

I'm brewing my Altbier today. I usually use WY1007 but I'm trying SafAle K-97. I usually ferment at 60 but the specs for this yeast say at least 64 so I guess I'll try that.

 

[Group W]

Ah... You mean dunkelweizen, as opposed to Munich dunkles.

Yes, it’s been a while. That was a surprisingly nice beer coming from an IPA guy.

 

[Group W]

I'm brewing my Altbier today. I usually use WY1007 but I'm trying SafAle K-97. I usually ferment at 60 but the specs for this yeast say at least 64 so I guess I'll try that.

I started my last Alt with K97 at 60F and it came out great. Started increasing the temp 1F/day at 3 days and let it hold at 66F. 64 should be fine.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I'm brewing my Altbier today. I usually use WY1007 but I'm trying SafAle K-97. I usually ferment at 60 but the specs for this yeast say at least 64 so I guess I'll try that.

When it’s done, would you mind posting about how this yeast flocked? I brewed another style and it’s not clearing even after bottling and sitting in the fridge.

 

[wepeeler]

When it’s done, would you mind posting about how this yeast flocked? I brewed another style and it’s not clearing even after bottling and sitting in the fridge.

K-97 is a pain in the neck for floccing. I used Biofine clear, and it still took weeks to clear. It never got as clear as any other Kolsch yeast I've used. It also is my least favorite, flavor-wise.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

K-97 is a pain in the neck for floccing. I used Biofine clear, and it still took weeks to clear. It never got as clear as any other Kolsch yeast I've used. It also is my least favorite, flavor-wise.

My limited knowledge is that is typical of kolsch yeast, but I’ve brewed with white labs kolsch and didn’t run into a problem. I don’t typically use finings following fermentation, but for the style… Alt is on my to brew list.

 

[wepeeler]

My limited knowledge is that is typical of kolsch yeast, but I’ve brewed with white labs kolsch and didn’t run into a problem. I don’t typically use finings following fermentation, but for the style… Alt is on my to brew list.

Yes, most Kolsch yeasts are stubborn. I've had decent success with Imperial Dieter and WLP029. Both flocced fairly well with Biofine Clear in the keg. K97 was by far the worst. Omega Kolsch II is by far the best floccer.

 

[Broothru]

Yes, most Kolsch yeasts are stubborn. I've had decent success with Imperial Dieter and WLP029. Both flocced fairly well with Biofine Clear in the keg. K97 was by far the worst. Omega Kolsch II is by far the best floccer.

I bought some "Dieter" specifically for the purpose of brewing a Kolsch (it's assumed to be PJ Fruh yeast, which was my favorite Kolsch in Koln. Supposedly it flocs quite quickly and drops clear without filtering, though traditional Kolner beer is required to be filtered. Even though it's a violation of Reinheitsgebot, I generally dose my clear beers with Biofine. I haven't yet brewed with the Deiter as compared to WLP-029 (also reputed to be PJ Fruh), but my recollection of WLP-029 is that took a loooong time to drop and wasn't very clear without fining. I almost never filter beer, probably not once in the last 3 or 4 years. It's been two years since I last attempted a Kolsch, which 'placed' in competition but was generally just "O.K."

My understanding re: Dieter is that it is also an appropriate yeast for Alt bier as well as Kolsch. In my many travels to Germany, I spent far more time in Dusseldorf, though haven't attempted brewing an Alt in likely fifteen years or more. I enjoyed many Alts, though when in Germany I was always drawn more to Helles, Kolsch or Pils, especially in Frankfurt and Munich where Kolsch and Alt are rarely found. Altbier always reminded me of American Ambers, especially Alaskan Amber, which I like, but not worth traveling half way around the world to drink. Maybe if Dieter works out in the Kolsch I'll give it a go in another Alt attempt.

 

[wepeeler]

I bought some "Dieter" specifically for the purpose of brewing a Kolsch (it's assumed to be PJ Fruh yeast, which was my favorite Kolsch in Koln. Supposedly it flocs quite quickly and drops clear without filtering, though traditional Kolner beer is required to be filtered. Even though it's a violation of Reinheitsgebot, I generally dose my clear beers with Biofine. I haven't yet brewed with the Deiter as compared to WLP-029 (also reputed to be PJ Fruh), but my recollection of WLP-029 is that took a loooong time to drop and wasn't very clear without fining. I almost never filter beer, probably not once in the last 3 or 4 years. It's been two years since I last attempted a Kolsch, which 'placed' in competition but was generally just "O.K."

My understanding re: Dieter is that it is also an appropriate yeast for Alt bier as well as Kolsch. In my many travels to Germany, I spent far more time in Dusseldorf, though haven't attempted brewing an Alt in likely fifteen years or more. I enjoyed many Alts, though when in Germany I was always drawn more to Helles, Kolsch or Pils, especially in Frankfurt and Munich where Kolsch and Alt are rarely found. Altbier always reminded me of American Ambers, especially Alaskan Amber, which I like, but not worth traveling half way around the world to drink. Maybe if Dieter works out in the Kolsch I'll give it a go in another Alt attempt.

Very interesting!

Can't remember if I ever used Dieter for an Alt, but I brewed my first 10-15 batches of Kolsch with it. I started off loving it, and then for whatever reason, probably process, I couldn't get consistent results with it. I do Biofine all my beers except for NEIPAs, so clearing hasn't really been an issue. Dieter, WLP029, Wyeast 2565 and Omega Kolsch II have all dropped clear. K97 was the only one that wasn't brilliant. It almost had a chill haze look to it.

My understanding for Kolsch yeasts is that they can make nice Alts, BUT Alt yeasts (Dusseldorf) don't make Kolsches. Depends who you talk to, like all walks of life!

I can understand why you went the Helles, Kolsch and Pils route when in Germany. I would lean that way myself. I would love to get to Europe and taste some local beer. On the bucket list for sure!

The only Altbier that I've been exposed to is Long Trail Ale (VT). That was basically their house beer when they took off in the 90s. It remains a staple, and I like to get a 6 pack every once in awhile for old time's sake. Not sure if it tastes anything like a true European Altbier, but it certainly quenches my thirst. Malty, but dry and crisp.

 

[balrog]

When it’s done, would you mind posting about how this yeast flocked? I brewed another style and it’s not clearing even after bottling and sitting in the fridge.

I was really underwhelmed by K97, much preferring my fav WY1007, which is also not a super floccer, but K97 was slow to start, had some interesting esters no clear definition of tart or grape but something, and then stayed cloudy for frikin ever.

 

[Broothru]

I was really underwhelmed by K97, much preferring my fav WY1007, which is also not a super floccer, but K97 was slow to start, had some interesting esters no clear definition of tart or grape but something, and then stayed cloudy for frikin ever.

You brewed it in a firkin?

 

[Spartan1979]

I was really underwhelmed by K97, much preferring my fav WY1007, which is also not a super floccer, but K97 was slow to start, had some interesting esters no clear definition of tart or grape but something, and then stayed cloudy for frikin ever.

So far, it's not been a slow starter. I sprinkled the yeast on top about 2:30 on Monday afternoon and I was getting bubbles out the blowout tube by 8:30 the next morning. It was bubbling rapidly by Tuesday afternoon. I pitched at 58 and let it rise to 64.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Coincidentally I’m brewing an Alt tomorrow. What’s your recipe, if you don’t mind sharing?

Sorry @Brooothru . when I saw your comment on thursday all I saw was If I didn't mind sharing and didnt even see that you were brewing this up on friday. Anyhow, here is the recipe I settled on this for go-round. I was pleased with my first brew of this about a year and a half ago, but decided to tinker with it of course. My tinkering was based on my interpretations of the scoresheets that @wepeeler posted from his comp suggesting they wanted a bit more amped up version ie more malt is how I interpreted that lol. So I gave it more malt and upped the IBUs from my previous batch. So here it is:

65% Weyermann Barke Pilsner
20% Epiphany Munich (essentially a more bold and slightly darker version of weyermann munich I)
5% Weyermann Munich II - I like the toast this brings
6% Briess Aromatic - don't you dare critique me for putting non-european aromatic into this beer. It was easy to do...just dump the grains into the mill lol.
2% Weyermann Caramunich III - previously used 6% but due to awesome maltiness of the epiphany munich, I decided I didn't need that much caramunich if at all.
2%. Weyermann Chocolate Wheat - I just love this malt and think it works better than caraffa special malts for this beer.

60min hops - Magnum (26.2 IBUs)
15min hops - Tettnang (9.6 IBUs)
10min hops - Tettnang (8.5 IBUs)

Used Dusseldorf yeast WLP036 - its a bitching fast fermentor but I will say its a crappy/low flocculator even though WLP says its flocculation is "medium" lol. Pitched at 60 and held at 61 until it krausen was gone and airlock started to slow (3.5days later!) then started ramping up to 71 over next few days. Tomorrow, this will be kegged as its been cold crashed for a few days.

I think this beer will turn out well. Hydrometer sample was excellent (although yeasty of course) and finished at 1.014 which is why I wanted to up the IBUs to balance the higher FG than lots get. So I think its well balanced. We will see how it does in comps where predominantly old-school peeps judge this beer but I'm sure very few have experience with knowing what an altbier SHOULD be like lol. Im thinking my recipe is just a bastardized and americanized version of an actual altbier from germany but hey it tastes solid to me regardless lol.

Cheers!

 

[passedpawn]

^^ that looks like a good recipe. I like my alts pretty light though, just slightly malty. I do wonder about the judges...

I had planned to brew an alt today, but due to some logistics issues with my ferment chamber and other beers in there already, it's delayed (brewed 3 other beers today though, all ales).

 

[Noob_Brewer]

^^ that looks like a good recipe. I like my alts pretty light though, just slightly malty. I do wonder about the judges...

I had planned to brew an alt today, but due to some logistics issues with my ferment chamber and other beers in there already, it's delayed (brewed 3 other beers today though, all ales).

Agreed about the judges. My previous altbier posted somewhere on this thread had only ~18% munich + Aromatic but also had 6% caramunich III. yeah I know the purists say theres no caramunich in these lol. Lucky for me I have a guy in my HB club whos retired and traveled across Europe including Belgium and Germany - munich and dusseldorf specifically. Without getting intel (like you have posted here @passedpawn) he was saying that there was more variation than expected in the Altbier style even within Dusseldorf. Some, he said were definitely more "caramelly" malty and others weren't so much and the bitterness shined more. Again, he never got any grain bills, but he thought my previous one was "in the neighborhood" for the style which was good enough for me. Excited to see how this one turns out.

 

[Broothru]

Sorry @Brooothru . when I saw your comment on thursday all I saw was If I didn't mind sharing and didnt even see that you were brewing this up on friday. Anyhow, here is the recipe I settled on this for go-round. I was pleased with my first brew of this about a year and a half ago, but decided to tinker with it of course. My tinkering was based on my interpretations of the scoresheets that @wepeeler posted from his comp suggesting they wanted a bit more amped up version ie more malt is how I interpreted that lol. So I gave it more malt and upped the IBUs from my previous batch. So here it is:

65% Weyermann Barke Pilsner
20% Epiphany Munich (essentially a more bold and slightly darker version of weyermann munich I)
5% Weyermann Munich II - I like the toast this brings
6% Briess Aromatic - don't you dare critique me for putting non-european aromatic into this beer. It was easy to do...just dump the grains into the mill lol.
2% Weyermann Caramunich III - previously used 6% but due to awesome maltiness of the epiphany munich, I decided I didn't need that much caramunich if at all.
2%. Weyermann Chocolate Wheat - I just love this malt and think it works better than caraffa special malts for this beer.

60min hops - Magnum (26.2 IBUs)
15min hops - Tettnang (9.6 IBUs)
10min hops - Tettnang (8.5 IBUs)

Used Dusseldorf yeast WLP036 - its a bitching fast fermentor but I will say its a crappy/low flocculator even though WLP says its flocculation is "medium" lol. Pitched at 60 and held at 61 until it krausen was gone and airlock started to slow (3.5days later!) then started ramping up to 71 over next few days. Tomorrow, this will be kegged as its been cold crashed for a few days.

I think this beer will turn out well. Hydrometer sample was excellent (although yeasty of course) and finished at 1.014 which is why I wanted to up the IBUs to balance the higher FG than lots get. So I think its well balanced. We will see how it does in comps where predominantly old-school peeps judge this beer but I'm sure very few have experience with knowing what an altbier SHOULD be like lol. Im thinking my recipe is just a bastardized and americanized version of an actual altbier from germany but hey it tastes solid to me regardless lol.

Cheers!

Thanks for the reply. I did get the Alt brewed, and it’s recipe is very similar to yours. It ended up getting modified on the fly since ingredients I thought I had on hand weren’t there when it came time to crush grains and dig hops out of the freezer. Anyway, all turned out well and I hit all my numbers.

I pitched directly onto to a yeast cake of Imperial G03 “Dieter” which is primarily a Kolsch yeast but is also good for Alts. The Kolsch turned out very well and cleared quickly, but I dosed it with Biofine in a “brite” keg for even more clarity. Strong fermentation was apparent within a few hours with the Alt.

I’m thinking about referring to these two beers as “twin sons of different Mothers” since they are as much alike as they are different. I’ve quaffed many Alts in Düsseldorf as well as Kolsches in Cologne. Two cities so close, and yet their favored beers are so uniquely different.

 

[Broothru]

“Without getting intel…he was saying that there was more variation than expected in the Altbier style even within Dusseldorf. Some, he said were definitely more "caramelly" malty and others weren't so much and the bitterness shined more.

^^^My experience as well. ^^^

 

[Noob_Brewer]

“twin sons of different Mothers”

I love this. Havent brewed a kolsch yet but its on my short list. "my brotha from a different motha" seems to hold the same idea lol

 

[day_trippr]

I can't imagine a more boring style than altbier...

 

[Jayjay1976]

Sorry @Brooothru . when I saw your comment on thursday all I saw was If I didn't mind sharing and didnt even see that you were brewing this up on friday. Anyhow, here is the recipe I settled on this for go-round. I was pleased with my first brew of this about a year and a half ago, but decided to tinker with it of course. My tinkering was based on my interpretations of the scoresheets that @wepeeler posted from his comp suggesting they wanted a bit more amped up version ie more malt is how I interpreted that lol. So I gave it more malt and upped the IBUs from my previous batch. So here it is:

65% Weyermann Barke Pilsner
20% Epiphany Munich (essentially a more bold and slightly darker version of weyermann munich I)
5% Weyermann Munich II - I like the toast this brings
6% Briess Aromatic - don't you dare critique me for putting non-european aromatic into this beer. It was easy to do...just dump the grains into the mill lol.
2% Weyermann Caramunich III - previously used 6% but due to awesome maltiness of the epiphany munich, I decided I didn't need that much caramunich if at all.
2%. Weyermann Chocolate Wheat - I just love this malt and think it works better than caraffa special malts for this beer.

60min hops - Magnum (26.2 IBUs)
15min hops - Tettnang (9.6 IBUs)
10min hops - Tettnang (8.5 IBUs)

Used Dusseldorf yeast WLP036 - its a bitching fast fermentor but I will say its a crappy/low flocculator even though WLP says its flocculation is "medium" lol. Pitched at 60 and held at 61 until it krausen was gone and airlock started to slow (3.5days later!) then started ramping up to 71 over next few days. Tomorrow, this will be kegged as its been cold crashed for a few days.

I think this beer will turn out well. Hydrometer sample was excellent (although yeasty of course) and finished at 1.014 which is why I wanted to up the IBUs to balance the higher FG than lots get. So I think its well balanced. We will see how it does in comps where predominantly old-school peeps judge this beer but I'm sure very few have experience with knowing what an altbier SHOULD be like lol. Im thinking my recipe is just a bastardized and americanized version of an actual altbier from germany but hey it tastes solid to me regardless lol.

Cheers!

Sounds delicious. Bravo for taking liberties with an old standard, your interesting riff on a classic accentuates the strong points, this is how the craft moves forward. I enjoy the style and I'd happily drink a few Stangen of your recipe.

 

[passedpawn]

I can't imagine a more boring style than altbier...

Hmmm....

 

[wepeeler]

I can't imagine a more boring style than altbier...

You can't be serious, can you?

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Sounds delicious. Bravo for taking liberties with an old standard, your interesting riff on a classic accentuates the strong points, this is how the craft moves forward. I enjoy the style and I'd happily drink a few Stangen of your recipe.

Thanks for the kind reply. We will see just how it conditions and turns out in the end but I’m optimistic it will be an enjoyable beer despite what BJCP and German purists want this style to be lol. Enlighten me on this point please….is stangen the proper plural form of stange? Jeez guess I have to get a proper stange glass before I post a pic of the finished beer lol