What does wild yeast taste like?

[pdog44450]

I'm angry

Both times I've tried to brew a pale ale I get this awful "dirty" taste that I cannot put my finger on. It tastes as if the beer is a weiss (and I HATE the taste of wheat beers) even though there is no wheat in the grain bill.

My first pale ale I dry hopped with hop sacks and I'm thinking they may have been unsanitary even though I boiled them and used iodophor. I thought of that as a bad batch. It was one of my first ones ever so I wasn't too angry so I chalked it up as a early mistake batch.


30+ batches later, I wanted to retry my hand at one of my favorite styles: the pale ale! I pulled a hydrometer sample of it yesterday and I got the EXACT same dirty, wheat beer, shoe taste that gives me a headache just thinking about it. When I take a hydrometer sample and taste it, it usually gives a great idea of what it's going to be like after carbonating. I am cold crashing it for a couple days and if it tastes the same, I am siphoning it straight down the drain. It ticks me off that I spent so much money on these ingredients only to have to dump it. I brewed an IPA a couple months ago that came out fantastic, but it was not dry hopped like the 2 pales I tried to make.

I bought a fermenting bucket specifically for this beer because I'm using my only fermentor on a lager. I bought the bucket, which is food safe, from Blain's. I sanitized the hell out of it with iodophor so I really have no clue how it's infected, but if I had to guess what an infected batch taste like, it would be this. Can somebody explain to me what a wild yeast infection tastes like? The only two times I've ever dry hopped and made a pale ale were the only two batches I've ever considered dumping out and it sucks!!!

 

[TheBrewingChemist]

Flavors produced by wild yeast vary widely. That being said, here is a few things I would look at if I were in your situation.

How do your hops smell that you are using for dry hopping? If they are oxidized and going to impart undesirable flavors in your beer, you can usually smell it.

Buckets get micro scratches in them and are near impossible to sanitize properly. If this were your problem you would likely be able to taste it in your other lighter beers however. It might get covered up in an IPA, but if you have brewed other light in flavor beers recently and they tasted fine then you are probably ok.

I'd skip the hop bags on the cold side. Not an issue in the boil, but in the fermenter it's just one more thing that can harbor yeast and bacteria. Again, they are nearly impossible to sanitize properly.

 

[pdog44450]

Flavors produced by wild yeast vary widely. That being said, here is a few things I would look at if I were in your situation.

How do your hops smell that you are using for dry hopping? If they are oxidized and going to impart undesirable flavors in your beer, you can usually smell it.

Buckets get micro scratches in them and are near impossible to sanitize properly. If this were your problem you would likely be able to taste it in your other lighter beers however. It might get covered up in an IPA, but if you have brewed other light in flavor beers recently and they tasted fine then you are probably ok.

I'd skip the hop bags on the cold side. Not an issue in the boil, but in the fermenter it's just one more thing that can harbor yeast and bacteria. Again, they are nearly impossible to sanitize properly.

The hops smell very fresh. I buy them in one ounce packs and open them the day I brew.

The pale ale is probably the lightest beer I've made. I'm usually an amber/brown/stout guy but I've never had an off flavor besides the 2 pales I've attempted. It's happened in both my fermenters

 

[beergolf]

How many yeasts are available commercially? Multiply that by thousands and that is how many wild yeasts exist. You cannot say a wild yeast tastes like XXXXX.

 

[beergolf]

How many yeasts are available commercially? Multiply that by thousands and that is how many wild yeasts exist. You cannot say a wild yeast tastes like XXXXX.

I put out samples to capture wild yeasts in my backyard. Three samples less than 50' apart. and they were all different.

 

[drainbamage]

I'll suggest something else: when you say it tastes like a wheat beer, is it possible you could be fermenting too warm and getting some esters?

 

[pdog44450]

I'll suggest something else: when you say it tastes like a wheat beer, is it possible you could be fermenting too warm and getting some esters?

I thought that might be the case except I was fermenting at a room temp of 59F. With a 2.5 gallon batch I ruled too warm of a fermentation out of the question

Edit: Also wanted to add that I brewed this with 05 which I would've been in the middle to low range with a 59 room temp. I've pretty much used 05 with the exception of a couple batches on all of my ales, many of which were fermented much warmer than this batch. Perhaps it was the light body of the PA that allowed to me to taste more flaws. Or it could be the new bucket I got was not clean. But then this brings me back to the question why did my other fermentor give me the same off flavor?

I do have a temp controller and a fridge. Perhaps I should just use that for my next pale ale attempt? Maybe 56-57 degrees?

 

[pdog44450]

I put out samples to capture wild yeasts in my backyard. Three samples less than 50' apart. and they were all different.

Understandable, but is there any sort of pattern that can narrow it down to it being wild yeast? If not do you have any idea what caused my terrible flavor? I had fresh grains, fresh hops, brewed like I always do. Never had a problem (except the other PA) like this

 

[unionrdr]

US-05 is a low to medium flocculation yeast. That & trub from the malts/extracts can give some funky flavors if left in suspension when bottling/kegging. Some can be stubborn to settle out & stay that way. Was the offending beer clear when you drank it?

 

[johngault007]

Were you using a reusable hop bag? If so, that is the only variable (from what you've included), that may lead to a change from your other 30+ batches.

Were there any changes in your mash temps etc....? Not sure how that would cause the flavor to change that drastically, but you almost have to look at every step of your process with these 2 batches.

 

[beergolf]

This is really a mystery. You mention that it is only pale ales that have had the taste. Yet you made an IPA that came out good.

Temps for US-05 look good. Unionrdr may be right about the US-05 being a low to medium floculating yeast. I pretty much have stopped using it for that reason. You could just be tasting yeast still in suspension. Cold crash it, bottle it up and give it some extra time for everything to clear. If that does not do it, I am not sure what the problem is.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I thought it could be trub/yeast he's tasting. Read a PDF about US-05, besides my own experiences. Other than trub/yeast...possibly something the lack of extra hops isn't masking? A light off-flavor from some other part of the process or bit of equipment?

 

[pdog44450]

US-05 is a low to medium flocculation yeast. That & trub from the malts/extracts can give some funky flavors if left in suspension when bottling/kegging. Some can be stubborn to settle out & stay that way. Was the offending beer clear when you drank it?

It was definitely not clear compared to most other beers I've brewed. Then again I usually primary for at least 3 weeks and this was only in the primary for like 8 days

 

[pdog44450]

Were you using a reusable hop bag? If so, that is the only variable (from what you've included), that may lead to a change from your other 30+ batches.

Were there any changes in your mash temps etc....? Not sure how that would cause the flavor to change that drastically, but you almost have to look at every step of your process with these 2 batches.

The first bad PA I used brand new hop bags. The 2nd I threw them straight in. Mash temp of 150 for both of them. The only difference from every other brew was the 2 pales were dry hopped. Did not do anything different or stray away from my normal brewing procedure for either.

 

[pdog44450]

This is really a mystery. You mention that it is only pale ales that have had the taste. Yet you made an IPA that came out good.

Temps for US-05 look good. Unionrdr may be right about the US-05 being a low to medium floculating yeast. I pretty much have stopped using it for that reason. You could just be tasting yeast still in suspension. Cold crash it, bottle it up and give it some extra time for everything to clear. If that does not do it, I am not sure what the problem is.

Been crashing for 3 days and I'm going to bottle when I wake up and see how it tastes. Maybe I'm just not used to tasting samples with yeast since I usually ferment much longer than I did this one. But the other PA was fermented for 3 weeks so who the heck knows...

 

[FatDragon]

It was definitely not clear compared to most other beers I've brewed. Then again I usually primary for at least 3 weeks and this was only in the primary for like 8 days

Eight days is not enough to get a good idea of what a finished beer is going to taste like. That's a big part of your problem right there. Leave it in primary for three weeks like you usually do and then package it as normal and try it when it's carbed up. Worst case scenario, serve/give it to your friends who probably won't mind drinking it for you even if it's not up to your own personal standards.

 

[unionrdr]

It's starting to sound like insufficient settling time compounded by the need for more conditioning time? I've also found that adding hops loosely to the boil gives them a bit more edge to the aroma/flavor. That makes a bit of difference.

 

[pdog44450]

It's starting to sound like insufficient settling time compounded by the need for more conditioning time? I've also found that adding hops loosely to the boil gives them a bit more edge to the aroma/flavor. That makes a bit of difference.

I could not detect literally any hops in the wort sample even though I hop bursted with almost 2oz (2.5 gallon batch). I guess I'll bottle tomorrow and see how it is in a couple weeks of carbing

 

[unionrdr]

Carbonation & conditioning time should bring them out. Green beer rarely tastes like the finished product.

 

[pdog44450]

Carbonation & conditioning time should bring them out. Green beer rarely tastes like the finished product.

I guess since I usually do a long fermentation and bottle conditioning, I guess I've never really tried a green beer. Hopefully it is just green and gets better. Unfortunately the other pale ale still tastes like crap 5 months later

 

[unionrdr]

Freshness of ingredients counts big here too. Degraded hops can be light in aroma & flavor. Besides when they were added to the boil, & the vigor of the boil.I think it's process-related, but the freshness factor can't be dismissed either.

 

[pdog44450]

Freshness of ingredients counts big here too. Degraded hops can be light in aroma & flavor. Besides when they were added to the boil, & the vigor of the boil.I think it's process-related, but the freshness factor can't be dismissed either.

Not sure how, I did everything the exact same as all my brews. Same grain source, unopened Hopunion hops, same sanitation, mash, and boil process. I wish I could pick out a point of fault here but I'm at a loss right now

 

[unionrdr]

How old were the hops when you bought them? how did you store them? What times did you typically add the hops? Was the boil vigorous, gently rolling or lower than that?

 

[pdog44450]

How old were the hops when you bought them? how did you store them? What times did you typically add the hops? Was the boil vigorous, gently rolling or lower than that?

Not sure exactly how old, no packing dates are given on the packs. I do know that they are nitrogen flushed and the packs are light-resistant (as per the pack). The hops were extremely fragrant and pungent. I have smelled oxygenated and old hops and these were far from them. Extremely strong citrus/tropical smell from both the Citra and Zythos that were used. I order from Ritebrew.com for all of my brewing stuff and never gotten bad hops. Package was shipped 1/7. Received it 1/8. Put in freezer until brew date which was 1/10. Here's my hop schedule:


3g Zythos (10.9%) @ FWH
6g Citra (14%) @ 15
7g Zythos @ 15
2g Citra @ 10
15g Citra @ FO
17g Zythos @ FO
7g Citra Dry Hop

Boil was a normal rolling boil. Harder than a simmer but not so violent that it's spilling over. I use my kitchen stove and I used the same number setting as I always do.

BTW, just pulled another sample out of the 3 day cold crashed fermentor and it still has the terrible taste. It reminds me almost of a dirty barnyard and I can't get the taste out of my mouth, it is truly awful. There is also a floating film with bubbles on it.

 

[johngault007]

There are so many variables that combined, could cause this. Most of which was pointed out above.

Lower mash temps combined with a medium (or low depending on health) flocculating yeast and a short fermentation time. These could all lead to what you are describing.

I guess trial and error is the best option. Maybe next time mash at 153-155, keep in primary for ~14 days, or both. I'm not saying this will fix it, but at least you are eliminating variables that may be contributing to the issue.

 

[unionrdr]

Hop addition times look ok. Although instead of flame out aroma additions, I just dry hop for better aroma. The last 3-5 minutes or so is also a good aroma addition point, if you want a lighter aroma. The rolling boil you describe sounds like what I dial in on my stove, so ok there. Hops & storage sound ok.
Dirty barnyard sounds like a yeast problem to me. Tell us about how you treated the yeast...there's gotta be something simple going on here!

 

[pdog44450]

Hop addition times look ok. Although instead of flame out aroma additions, I just dry hop for better aroma. The last 3-5 minutes or so is also a good aroma addition point, if you want a lighter aroma. The rolling boil you describe sounds like what I dial in on my stove, so ok there. Hops & storage sound ok.
Dirty barnyard sounds like a yeast problem to me. Tell us about how you treated the yeast...there's gotta be something simple going on here!

Used about 3/4 pack of dry US-05. Boiled water, cooled it to 100 degrees and pitched in yeast and stirred it. Then, I boiled a little more water and added sugar to prime the yeast. I put the boiled sugar water into the rehydrated yeast after about 20 minutes. Pitched the yeast into the wort about 30 minutes later. All objects that touched the rehydrated yeast were sanitized. Again, this is the same procedure for all my beers. I'm stumped!

 

[unionrdr]

100F isn't too bad, but higher than what I rehydrate US-05 at. I never go higher than 90F or so. adding boiled sugar water to the yeast, even after 20 minutes, seems to me would still be too warm, bordering on too hot. That could be part of the problem. Pitching after 30 minutes, the yeast hydrate could still be more than 10 degrees above the temp of the wort, shocking the yeast & possibly powering their sheer numbers.

 

[Arttu]

Floating film with bubbles doesn't sound very good, that would be a fitting description for a pellicle. Can you take a picture of it?

Also, I've never heard of adding sugar to yeast prior to pitching. Rehydration is really all that is needed when using dry yeast (and even that isn't strictly necessary). All that sugar is going to do is shock the yeast.

 

[unionrdr]

I thought the "boiled" solution might've been too hot? I used to rehydrate Cooper's yeast with a small amount of dextrose, worked out ok. But rehydrating plain spring water working out better. but high temp differential between 100F hydrate & current wort temp couldn't have been ideal either...

 

[Psylocide]

It sounds as if an infection is probable (from your description of a film and bubbles, but could just be yeast rafts, post a pic), however... I'll add that my water absolutely sucks for lightly hopped pale beers.

My first couple blonde ales tasted, not right. Adjusted my water for a cream ale and made all the difference in the world. Before I was getting an overly grainy taste... almost like hay or straight husks.

Tweaked some things in Bru'n water and really turned it around.

 

[pdog44450]

Floating film with bubbles doesn't sound very good, that would be a fitting description for a pellicle. Can you take a picture of it?

Also, I've never heard of adding sugar to yeast prior to pitching. Rehydration is really all that is needed when using dry yeast (and even that isn't strictly necessary). All that sugar is going to do is shock the yeast.

The film is kind of hard to see in the photo. You can see around the edges of the bucket there is a lighter color: the film does not reach the outside. There are a ton of floating particles that I've never seen post fermentation so heavily, especially since I cold crashed.

Adding sugar to "prime" the yeast is shown in Palmer's book http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/yeast/preparing-yeast-and-yeast-starters

 

[pdog44450]

It sounds as if an infection is probable (from your description of a film and bubbles, but could just be yeast rafts, post a pic), however... I'll add that my water absolutely sucks for lightly hopped pale beers.

My first couple blonde ales tasted, not right. Adjusted my water for a cream ale and made all the difference in the world. Before I was getting an overly grainy taste... almost like hay or straight husks.

Tweaked some things in Bru'n water and really turned it around.

I've seen yeast rafts before but this just seems different to me. I tweaked my water in Bru'n. I can post the before and after if you'd like. I believe my mash ph was 5.4-5.5, but I'm currently away from my computer so I'm not positive.

 

[pdog44450]

100F isn't too bad, but higher than what I rehydrate US-05 at. I never go higher than 90F or so. adding boiled sugar water to the yeast, even after 20 minutes, seems to me would still be too warm, bordering on too hot. That could be part of the problem. Pitching after 30 minutes, the yeast hydrate could still be more than 10 degrees above the temp of the wort, shocking the yeast & possibly powering their sheer numbers.

I cover and cool the sugar water in the freezer immediately after boiling, then by the time that is cooled the rehydrated yeast has been cooled significantly. I pitch when the sugar water and yeast are the same temp. By the time I mix in the sugar water and wait, the rehydrated yeast and wort are about equal in temperature. I make sure not to have + or - 5 degree difference between wort and yeast before I pitch.

 

[pdog44450]

Here's a closer up pic for everyone

 

[unionrdr]

Looks like something may just barely be getting started.

 

[pdog44450]

So can I assume that it's just a coincidence that something went wrong with both my pale ales and that it's not me sucking at brewing?

The buckets were stacked in the store I bought them in so maybe they got microscratches? It was the first time I had ever used this bucket too so this seems like the obvious suspect.

But then that gets me thinking, how can a HBS ergonomically get shipped buckets without having them stacked? It seems like they'd almost have to. Unstacked buckets would take up a lot of space.

 

[johngault007]

Unless mother nature hates your pale ales, it has to be something within the process. I recommend you take a recap of all of the suggestions and systematically make changes according to them. It may take a couple batches or more. I've never had issues with buckets stacked at the LHBS or my house, so I doubt you would have that kind of bad luck on two batches of a specific style.