What am I doing wrong? Weak, boring beer.

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michaelzero

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Hi guys. I've been brewing for about 4 years, but I'm near giving up - I just can't get my beer to the level I want.

Every batch I make tastes weak, boring, insipid. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm following all the advice I can find - I don't seem to be getting anywhere near beer I drink from the commercial brewers (micro breweries).

So, right now I'm drinking my brew of BierMuncher Centennial Blonde.

The only changes are that I'm using New Zealand hops and grain.

The beer tastes dull, it's got a bitter backbone but nothing in the middle or the end. There's a muddy taste, not bright and fresh tasting. It's a little bit astringent and perhaps a touch vegetable tasting.

For sanitation I clean the kettle with cold water detergent, then spray everything down with StarSan.

I don't measure pH.

My burner doesn't put out a lot of heat, but the boil is "rolling".

I cool using a immersion cooler.

I aerate by rocking the fermenter for a few minutes.

I pitch the yeast straight into the fermenter.

Please help! I thought I'd be making beer I enjoy drinking by now!
 
Sounds like you have a couple issues going on.

I personally wouldn't clean with detergent, do you have access to an oxygen based cleaner without fragrants/odors? Oxyclean free for example?

How are the hops stored, could be old or poorly stored hops. Vacuum sealed? Always frozen?

Try rehdyrating, or making a starter, or buying more yeast. You're probably underpitching which could lead to some of the astringency.

Do you control fermentation temps at all?

What yeasts have you been using? What fermentation temp?


The two biggest things you can do is pitch lots of healthy yeast, and control temps.
 
Thanks for the response.

The detergent I'm using is this one - ECD Cold Water Cleaner Detergent which I can only assume is meant for brewing. I've just bought some PBW, so perhaps I'll try that instead. It says to leave for 30 mins which is a bit of a pain.

My hops are normally bought fresh, or if frozen aren't usually older than a few months. Sometimes a mix of fresh and frozen. I don't vacuum seal them, just put them in a ziplock and squeeze the air out.

I don't use temp control, trying to keep my kit to a minimum, but the place where I ferment is within the recommended temps from the yeast manufacturers - around 65F, but has been a little colder. Using Mangrove Jacks M44 and Danstar Notingham Ale Yeast.

I usually scale up my brews a little bit - from 5 gallon to 6 gallons, but still only use one packet of dried yeast, no starter.

Could aeration be a problem? pH? I think the water from the tap is around 8.
 
You mention vegetable tasting - you don't boil with the lid on, do you? DMS could be an issue if you do. Here is a quote from John Palmer's "How to Brew":

Dimethyl Sulfides (DMS)/ Cooked Vegetable Flavors
Like diacetyl in ales, DMS is common in many light lagers and is considered to be part of the character. DMS is produced in the wort during the boil by the reduction of another compound, S-methyl-methionine (SMM), which is itself produced during malting. When a malt is roasted or toasted, the SMM is reduced beforehand and does not manifest as DMS in the wort, which explains why it is more prevalent in pale lagers. In other styles, DMS is a common off-flavor, and can be caused by poor brewing practices or bacterial infections.

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

When caused by bacterial infection, DMS has a more rancid character, more liked cooked cabbage than corn. It is usually the result of poor sanitation. Repitching the yeast from an infected batch of beer will perpetuate the problem.

Also, do you know what your water profile looks like? Astringency is related to ph issues, I believe.

Fermentation temperature control is a big factor from my own experience as well as all of the research I have done.
 
michaelzero said:
Thanks for the response.

The detergent I'm using is this one - ECD Cold Water Cleaner Detergent which I can only assume is meant for brewing. I've just bought some PBW, so perhaps I'll try that instead. It says to leave for 30 mins which is a bit of a pain.

This seems fine then

My hops are normally bought fresh, or if frozen aren't usually older than a few months. Sometimes a mix of fresh and frozen. I don't vacuum seal them, just put them in a ziplock and squeeze the air out.
Also shouldn't be a problem

I don't use temp control, trying to keep my kit to a minimum, but the place where I ferment is within the recommended temps from the yeast manufacturers - around 65F, but has been a little colder. Using Mangrove Jacks M44 and Danstar Notingham Ale Yeast.
This could be part of the problem, do you have access to a large tub you can fill with water and place the fermentation vessel in? If the ambient temp is 65, the fermenting beer is likely to be around 70-73.
I usually scale up my brews a little bit - from 5 gallon to 6 gallons, but still only use one packet of dried yeast, no starter.
This basically guarantees you're under pitching, at least a little. At the very least I would suggest rehydrating and not pitching dry. It's simple, doesn't take much time, and is effective
Could aeration be a problem? pH? I think the water from the tap is around 8.
Click to expand...

PH could be a problem, but I don't know enough to say more than that. I'll leave that to the water folks.
 
OK. So more yeast! I'll try two packets of dried next time. How about aeration? Should shaking the fermenter be enough?
 
michaelzero said:
OK. So more yeast! I'll try two packets of dried next time. How about aeration? Should shaking the fermenter be enough?
Click to expand...

For a normal og that's usually sufficient. Stronger beers need more oxygenation.

Do you have any means of cooling the fermenting beer down? Swamp coolers are low tech and pretty effective.
 
What kind of water are you brewing with, and has it been the same for the 4 years you've been at it? There are definitely certain issues with water that can cause the bitter, astringent, not fresh taste. High pH is one of them but it doesn't stop there. How about a water report?
 
Another question about your water- are you using water with any chlorine or chloramine in it? I don't know about in NZ, but just about every municipal water supply in the US uses one or the other (and most occasionally switch back and forth between both). Don't even need to bee able to smell it or taste it for it to be a problem.
 
I'd be interested to see your adjusted grain bill, how your brewing/fermentation process looks or if your hitting your numbers as you go. I'd be happy to offer some tweaks if I can. Don't give up!!!
 
Yep, betting on water too. All the other technique issues that folks are raising probably have been addressed - or at least varied - in four years of brewing. That's a long time to work out process kinks.


On tap: Blonde Ale, Amber Kölsch, Sweet Stout
Conditioning: Ginger Kristalweizen
Bubbling: Black Widow Porter
 
pH and water are definitely an issue. In fact, my first batch of Centennial Blonde was what inspired me to start adjusting my water and measuring pH. The grains in the Centennial blonde recipe are all light grains and, as a result, they simply don't lower the mash pH to the right range without the addition of acid. if your tap water has a pH around 8, then you're almost guaranteed to have a mash pH that is way too high with that grain bill, and that doesn't taste good.
 
My first suspect would be the water. Next batch, try brewing with bottle spring water, or even distilled water (make sure to add some yeast nutrient).

The next suspect would be your temperatures. Make sure your thermometer is accurate, and make sure you're mashing at the correct temperature.

Finally, the yeast. Make sure you're aerating the wort thoroughly, and if using dry yeast, rehydrate and overpitch.

Do all those things and see if it makes a difference in the resulting beer.
 
Jdaught said:
I bet it's the water and a high pH issue.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is exactly what it sounds like. The perfect description of a water issue is the beer can be muddy, insipid, and maybe even a little harsh.

Try one batch with RO or distilled water, with a teaspoon of calcium chloride in it, and that should fix it. If it doesn't, it's something else but I am willing to bet it's a water chemistry and mash pH issue.
 
Thanks for the all the replies people! If anyone is interested here is the water report page 38 "Waitakere". pH is listed as 7.8 average, no Chlorite, Chlorine 0.76 mg/L - so safe to say that boiling or potassium metabisulfite might be the way to go? I've been adding Gypsum, but only recently.

wilserbrewer said:
How Lon are you aging your beers?
Click to expand...

2- 3 weeks in the secondary, the one I was drinking yesterday was approx 4 weeks in the bottle. It's gotten better over that time, but not significantly.

OleGoatBrewing said:
I'd be interested to see your adjusted grain bill, how your brewing/fermentation process looks or if your hitting your numbers as you go. I'd be happy to offer some tweaks if I can. Don't give up!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks! I don't want to. I want to be proud of the beer I'm making. I was planning on making some for a friends wedding, but I can't give them the stuff I'm making now. Here is the grain bill I used (metric).

Here is my plan! Thoughts?
- Change my current detergent to PBW or another oxygen based cleaner.
- Change my water. Pretreat with potassium metabisulfite, measure and adjust pH, add Gypsum.
- Check my thermometer against another, digital thermometer for correct mash temp.
- More hops!
- Buy a drill mounted aerator and overpitch the dried yeast. My software (brewersfriend) actually recommends 3 packets of dried to hit Pro Brewer 1.0 (Ale) for 6 gallons. At that price it's about the same as a liquid packet... so not sure what to do there, I've built a stirplate but haven't got the flask yet.
- Lower my fermentation temp, currently it's around 65 - 68F, I'll try and get it more towards 60F with the swamp cooler type setup.

Thanks again.
 
kombat said:
Next batch, try brewing with bottle spring water, or even distilled water (make sure to add some yeast nutrient).
Click to expand...

This sounds like a good control - but I guess long term it's not really sustainable for me - bottled water is expensive in New Zealand - more of a lifestyle thing that a necessity for people I guess.
 
I alway run my recipes through Beersmith. I added yours (sorry had to convert to US) and here is what it's telling me. Color and ABV are a little high with this grain bill. You've got room to add more hops and adjust the malt to help provide some of the depth in flavor you're looking for.
cenblond.png


I found another (Biermuncher's) Centennial Blonde recipe you may want to look and compare to help make the adjustments you want. http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/185638?&doid=54779114840be.

Possibly up your fermentation temp to 70F/21C. It's sill within the range for that yeast.

I did not load your water profile, but I do agree with trying to address the issue as well. Hope this helps!
 
If I'm reading your water report correctly, you have awesome soft water. With some minor additions, it'll e perfect. I'd suggest making sure your pH is in check, especially when using light grains.

Downloading Bru'n Water is another really helpful resource for working through the pH and water additions.
 
OleGoatBrewing said:
I alway run my recipes through Beersmith. I added yours (sorry had to convert to US) and here is what it's telling me. Color and ABV are a little high with this grain bill. You've got room to add more hops and adjust the malt to help provide some of the depth in flavor you're looking for.
cenblond.png


I found another (Biermuncher's) Centennial Blonde recipe you may want to look and compare to help make the adjustments you want. http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/185638?&doid=54779114840be.

Possibly up your fermentation temp to 70F/21C. It's sill within the range for that yeast.

I did not load your water profile, but I do agree with trying to address the issue as well. Hope this helps!
Click to expand...

OK, great - next time I make it I'll refer to that recipe as well. I've been thinking about more fundamental issues since this has been a problem across most of my brews.

Temperature wise, I suppose if I over pitch it'll heat up a bit, so maybe I'll aim for the 65F mark and see how the yeast heat things up.
 
JonM said:
If I'm reading your water report correctly, you have awesome soft water. With some minor additions, it'll e perfect. I'd suggest making sure your pH is in check, especially when using light grains.

Downloading Bru'n Water is another really helpful resource for working through the pH and water additions.
Click to expand...

Yeah I would have thought the water was pretty good. Most people here drink it straight from the tap. But yes, pH looks like a fundamental issue to take into account, especially with the lighter grains. I'll do some reading on adjusting it.

Would the pH also affect hop utilisation? None of my beers seem to be anywhere near close to the IBU's the calculator spits out/recipe indications.
 
I haven't seen anyone comment on this, but how are you carbonating? Are you bottling or kegging? Do you have "flat beer with a head"? I spent a long time brewing before I realized the importance of following the carbonation rules for the kind of beer I brewed.
 
carrboy2002 said:
I haven't seen anyone comment on this, but how are you carbonating? Are you bottling or kegging? Do you have "flat beer with a head"? I spent a long time brewing before I realized the importance of following the carbonation rules for the kind of beer I brewed.
Click to expand...

Bottling - results vary, but I think my current beer would just taste weak, boring and fizzier if I upped the CO2.
 
Water, detergent, seems to me Brewers love to critique the process when it may in fact be the recipes! Of course blondes (except for my wife) are not at all to my liking... If I were you I'd brew up a hop monster and re-evaluate. Check around, but if you want I can suggest two or three recipes that if you think their insipid after you taste them you are crazy, or maybe it's your water and detergent....?

Steve da sleeve
 
stevedasleeve said:
Water, detergent, seems to me Brewers love to critique the process when it may in fact be the recipes! Of course blondes (except for my wife) are not at all to my liking... If I were you I'd brew up a hop monster and re-evaluate. Check around, but if you want I can suggest two or three recipes that if you think their insipid after you taste them you are crazy, or maybe it's your water and detergent....?

Steve da sleeve
Click to expand...

What I wanted to do when I started out brewing was to make a SNPA clone (more or less) that I was proud of. I still haven't done that! Once I've nailed that I'll expand into the weird and wonderful.
 
michaelzero said:
Would the pH also affect hop utilisation? None of my beers seem to be anywhere near close to the IBU's the calculator spits out/recipe indications.
Click to expand...


Not really, but sulfate can accentuate hops. (Careful, though - some feel that certain hops, especially Continental hops, shouldn't be accentuated with sulfate.)
 
Don't treat your water. Take it out of the equation by using 100% reverse osmosis water, just like Yooper suggests. You can usually find a machine in a supermarket that has it for 40 cents a gallon.
 
progmac said:
Don't treat your water. Take it out of the equation by using 100% reverse osmosis water, just like Yooper suggests. You can usually find a machine in a supermarket that has it for 40 cents a gallon.
Click to expand...

You mean to eliminate it from the equation?

Will I have to add anything back in? Yeast nutrient? And should I adjust the mash pH?
 
michaelzero said:
You mean to eliminate it from the equation?

Will I have to add anything back in? Yeast nutrient? And should I adjust the mash pH?
Click to expand...

The "primer" was linked earlier in the thread. If you check that out, starting with RO or distilled water, you'll be in good shape. Small additions of various things (calcium chloride, gypsum, acid malt, etc), but if you don't want to go through the work of adjusting your own tap water or tailoring water specifically for a certain beer, then it'll do you just fine.

I admittedly haven't read your water report although someone mentioned it being fairly soft, which is good. If there's chloramine/chlorine in there, hit it with some potassium metabisulfite (campden tablets) and then go from there. I had an off flavor in all my beers made with tap water until I started treating for chloramine/chlorine. Vegetal and dull wasn't it, more of a harsh plasticy medicinal flavor.
 
I bought that book and started to read it, but I found it very technical, and seems to assume a basic level of chemistry that I just don't have. He dives right into using terminology without explaining what it is, or why it's important. As a result, I found it a really difficult read. I was hoping for a book that would start with the fundamentals, assuming no knowledge at all, and that's not what "Water" is, IMHO.
 
The way you describe your beer in your original post suggests to me that it seems thin. If that is the case, consider your mash temperature from 66 C (about 150 F) is fine, especially for the style, but if you mash a little warmer (say 68 C) your beer will have a little more body.

Also, you mention you aren't getting a real rigorous boil -- that can affect hop utilization significantly, especially if you are using cones instead of pellets.

Also, you really want to start checking your mash pH -- even if it is just with the test strips, which are inexpensive.
 
michaelzero said:
- Change my water. Pretreat with potassium metabisulfite, measure and adjust pH, add Gypsum.
Click to expand...

This may be obvious, but there's really no need to adjust the pH of the water you start with. It's the mash pH you should be concerned with. Yesterday I started reading the Water book referenced above and this is one of the first guiding principles covered.

The pH of your water does not give any indication of the water's ability to buffer any additions you make to adjust the pH.

Make sense?
 

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