What am I doing wrong? Weak, boring beer.

[michaelzero]

Hi guys. I've been brewing for about 4 years, but I'm near giving up - I just can't get my beer to the level I want.

Every batch I make tastes weak, boring, insipid. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm following all the advice I can find - I don't seem to be getting anywhere near beer I drink from the commercial brewers (micro breweries).

So, right now I'm drinking my brew of BierMuncher Centennial Blonde.

The only changes are that I'm using New Zealand hops and grain.

The beer tastes dull, it's got a bitter backbone but nothing in the middle or the end. There's a muddy taste, not bright and fresh tasting. It's a little bit astringent and perhaps a touch vegetable tasting.

For sanitation I clean the kettle with cold water detergent, then spray everything down with StarSan.

I don't measure pH.

My burner doesn't put out a lot of heat, but the boil is "rolling".

I cool using a immersion cooler.

I aerate by rocking the fermenter for a few minutes.

I pitch the yeast straight into the fermenter.

Please help! I thought I'd be making beer I enjoy drinking by now!

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Sounds like you have a couple issues going on.

I personally wouldn't clean with detergent, do you have access to an oxygen based cleaner without fragrants/odors? Oxyclean free for example?

How are the hops stored, could be old or poorly stored hops. Vacuum sealed? Always frozen?

Try rehdyrating, or making a starter, or buying more yeast. You're probably underpitching which could lead to some of the astringency.

Do you control fermentation temps at all?

What yeasts have you been using? What fermentation temp?


The two biggest things you can do is pitch lots of healthy yeast, and control temps.

 

[michaelzero]

Thanks for the response.

The detergent I'm using is this one - ECD Cold Water Cleaner Detergent which I can only assume is meant for brewing. I've just bought some PBW, so perhaps I'll try that instead. It says to leave for 30 mins which is a bit of a pain.

My hops are normally bought fresh, or if frozen aren't usually older than a few months. Sometimes a mix of fresh and frozen. I don't vacuum seal them, just put them in a ziplock and squeeze the air out.

I don't use temp control, trying to keep my kit to a minimum, but the place where I ferment is within the recommended temps from the yeast manufacturers - around 65F, but has been a little colder. Using Mangrove Jacks M44 and Danstar Notingham Ale Yeast.

I usually scale up my brews a little bit - from 5 gallon to 6 gallons, but still only use one packet of dried yeast, no starter.

Could aeration be a problem? pH? I think the water from the tap is around 8.

 

[Devin]

You mention vegetable tasting - you don't boil with the lid on, do you? DMS could be an issue if you do. Here is a quote from John Palmer's "How to Brew":

Dimethyl Sulfides (DMS)/ Cooked Vegetable Flavors
Like diacetyl in ales, DMS is common in many light lagers and is considered to be part of the character. DMS is produced in the wort during the boil by the reduction of another compound, S-methyl-methionine (SMM), which is itself produced during malting. When a malt is roasted or toasted, the SMM is reduced beforehand and does not manifest as DMS in the wort, which explains why it is more prevalent in pale lagers. In other styles, DMS is a common off-flavor, and can be caused by poor brewing practices or bacterial infections.

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

When caused by bacterial infection, DMS has a more rancid character, more liked cooked cabbage than corn. It is usually the result of poor sanitation. Repitching the yeast from an infected batch of beer will perpetuate the problem.

Also, do you know what your water profile looks like? Astringency is related to ph issues, I believe.

Fermentation temperature control is a big factor from my own experience as well as all of the research I have done.

 

[michaelzero]

I don't boil with the lid on, no. But my boil is not vigorous - nothing like this - BOILING

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Thanks for the response.

The detergent I'm using is this one - ECD Cold Water Cleaner Detergent which I can only assume is meant for brewing. I've just bought some PBW, so perhaps I'll try that instead. It says to leave for 30 mins which is a bit of a pain.

This seems fine then

My hops are normally bought fresh, or if frozen aren't usually older than a few months. Sometimes a mix of fresh and frozen. I don't vacuum seal them, just put them in a ziplock and squeeze the air out.
Also shouldn't be a problem

I don't use temp control, trying to keep my kit to a minimum, but the place where I ferment is within the recommended temps from the yeast manufacturers - around 65F, but has been a little colder. Using Mangrove Jacks M44 and Danstar Notingham Ale Yeast.
This could be part of the problem, do you have access to a large tub you can fill with water and place the fermentation vessel in? If the ambient temp is 65, the fermenting beer is likely to be around 70-73.
I usually scale up my brews a little bit - from 5 gallon to 6 gallons, but still only use one packet of dried yeast, no starter.
This basically guarantees you're under pitching, at least a little. At the very least I would suggest rehydrating and not pitching dry. It's simple, doesn't take much time, and is effective
Could aeration be a problem? pH? I think the water from the tap is around 8.

PH could be a problem, but I don't know enough to say more than that. I'll leave that to the water folks.

 

[michaelzero]

OK. So more yeast! I'll try two packets of dried next time. How about aeration? Should shaking the fermenter be enough?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

OK. So more yeast! I'll try two packets of dried next time. How about aeration? Should shaking the fermenter be enough?

For a normal og that's usually sufficient. Stronger beers need more oxygenation.

Do you have any means of cooling the fermenting beer down? Swamp coolers are low tech and pretty effective.

 

[McKnuckle]

What kind of water are you brewing with, and has it been the same for the 4 years you've been at it? There are definitely certain issues with water that can cause the bitter, astringent, not fresh taste. High pH is one of them but it doesn't stop there. How about a water report?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Bier muncher blonde is a light crisp American ale...try upping the malt by 50% and the hops by 100% and report back....cheers

How Lon are you aging your beers?


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[Qhrumphf]

Another question about your water- are you using water with any chlorine or chloramine in it? I don't know about in NZ, but just about every municipal water supply in the US uses one or the other (and most occasionally switch back and forth between both). Don't even need to bee able to smell it or taste it for it to be a problem.

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

I'd be interested to see your adjusted grain bill, how your brewing/fermentation process looks or if your hitting your numbers as you go. I'd be happy to offer some tweaks if I can. Don't give up!!!

 

[Magnus314]

I'd bet it's the water.

 

[Jdaught]

I bet it's the water and a high pH issue.

 

[McKnuckle]

Yep, betting on water too. All the other technique issues that folks are raising probably have been addressed - or at least varied - in four years of brewing. That's a long time to work out process kinks.


On tap: Blonde Ale, Amber Kölsch, Sweet Stout
Conditioning: Ginger Kristalweizen
Bubbling: Black Widow Porter

 

[JonM]

pH and water are definitely an issue. In fact, my first batch of Centennial Blonde was what inspired me to start adjusting my water and measuring pH. The grains in the Centennial blonde recipe are all light grains and, as a result, they simply don't lower the mash pH to the right range without the addition of acid. if your tap water has a pH around 8, then you're almost guaranteed to have a mash pH that is way too high with that grain bill, and that doesn't taste good.

 

[kombat]

My first suspect would be the water. Next batch, try brewing with bottle spring water, or even distilled water (make sure to add some yeast nutrient).

The next suspect would be your temperatures. Make sure your thermometer is accurate, and make sure you're mashing at the correct temperature.

Finally, the yeast. Make sure you're aerating the wort thoroughly, and if using dry yeast, rehydrate and overpitch.

Do all those things and see if it makes a difference in the resulting beer.

 

[Yooper]

I bet it's the water and a high pH issue.

Yes, that is exactly what it sounds like. The perfect description of a water issue is the beer can be muddy, insipid, and maybe even a little harsh.

Try one batch with RO or distilled water, with a teaspoon of calcium chloride in it, and that should fix it. If it doesn't, it's something else but I am willing to bet it's a water chemistry and mash pH issue.

 

[JonM]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Here's a great place to start. Note that when you're using light grains like the Centennial Blonde recipe, the primer recommends adding saurmalz/aciduated malt at about 3% of the total grain bill.

 

[michaelzero]

Thanks for the all the replies people! If anyone is interested here is the water report page 38 "Waitakere". pH is listed as 7.8 average, no Chlorite, Chlorine 0.76 mg/L - so safe to say that boiling or potassium metabisulfite might be the way to go? I've been adding Gypsum, but only recently.

How Lon are you aging your beers?

2- 3 weeks in the secondary, the one I was drinking yesterday was approx 4 weeks in the bottle. It's gotten better over that time, but not significantly.

I'd be interested to see your adjusted grain bill, how your brewing/fermentation process looks or if your hitting your numbers as you go. I'd be happy to offer some tweaks if I can. Don't give up!!!

Thanks! I don't want to. I want to be proud of the beer I'm making. I was planning on making some for a friends wedding, but I can't give them the stuff I'm making now. Here is the grain bill I used (metric).

Here is my plan! Thoughts?
- Change my current detergent to PBW or another oxygen based cleaner.
- Change my water. Pretreat with potassium metabisulfite, measure and adjust pH, add Gypsum.
- Check my thermometer against another, digital thermometer for correct mash temp.
- More hops!
- Buy a drill mounted aerator and overpitch the dried yeast. My software (brewersfriend) actually recommends 3 packets of dried to hit Pro Brewer 1.0 (Ale) for 6 gallons. At that price it's about the same as a liquid packet... so not sure what to do there, I've built a stirplate but haven't got the flask yet.
- Lower my fermentation temp, currently it's around 65 - 68F, I'll try and get it more towards 60F with the swamp cooler type setup.

Thanks again.

 

[michaelzero]

Next batch, try brewing with bottle spring water, or even distilled water (make sure to add some yeast nutrient).

This sounds like a good control - but I guess long term it's not really sustainable for me - bottled water is expensive in New Zealand - more of a lifestyle thing that a necessity for people I guess.

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

I alway run my recipes through Beersmith. I added yours (sorry had to convert to US) and here is what it's telling me. Color and ABV are a little high with this grain bill. You've got room to add more hops and adjust the malt to help provide some of the depth in flavor you're looking for.

I found another (Biermuncher's) Centennial Blonde recipe you may want to look and compare to help make the adjustments you want. http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/185638?&doid=54779114840be.

Possibly up your fermentation temp to 70F/21C. It's sill within the range for that yeast.

I did not load your water profile, but I do agree with trying to address the issue as well. Hope this helps!

 

[JonM]

If I'm reading your water report correctly, you have awesome soft water. With some minor additions, it'll e perfect. I'd suggest making sure your pH is in check, especially when using light grains.

Downloading Bru'n Water is another really helpful resource for working through the pH and water additions.

 

[michaelzero]

I alway run my recipes through Beersmith. I added yours (sorry had to convert to US) and here is what it's telling me. Color and ABV are a little high with this grain bill. You've got room to add more hops and adjust the malt to help provide some of the depth in flavor you're looking for.

I found another (Biermuncher's) Centennial Blonde recipe you may want to look and compare to help make the adjustments you want. http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/185638?&doid=54779114840be.

Possibly up your fermentation temp to 70F/21C. It's sill within the range for that yeast.

I did not load your water profile, but I do agree with trying to address the issue as well. Hope this helps!

OK, great - next time I make it I'll refer to that recipe as well. I've been thinking about more fundamental issues since this has been a problem across most of my brews.

Temperature wise, I suppose if I over pitch it'll heat up a bit, so maybe I'll aim for the 65F mark and see how the yeast heat things up.

 

[michaelzero]

If I'm reading your water report correctly, you have awesome soft water. With some minor additions, it'll e perfect. I'd suggest making sure your pH is in check, especially when using light grains.

Downloading Bru'n Water is another really helpful resource for working through the pH and water additions.

Yeah I would have thought the water was pretty good. Most people here drink it straight from the tap. But yes, pH looks like a fundamental issue to take into account, especially with the lighter grains. I'll do some reading on adjusting it.

Would the pH also affect hop utilisation? None of my beers seem to be anywhere near close to the IBU's the calculator spits out/recipe indications.

 

[carrboy2002]

I haven't seen anyone comment on this, but how are you carbonating? Are you bottling or kegging? Do you have "flat beer with a head"? I spent a long time brewing before I realized the importance of following the carbonation rules for the kind of beer I brewed.

 

[michaelzero]

I haven't seen anyone comment on this, but how are you carbonating? Are you bottling or kegging? Do you have "flat beer with a head"? I spent a long time brewing before I realized the importance of following the carbonation rules for the kind of beer I brewed.

Bottling - results vary, but I think my current beer would just taste weak, boring and fizzier if I upped the CO2.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Water, detergent, seems to me Brewers love to critique the process when it may in fact be the recipes! Of course blondes (except for my wife) are not at all to my liking... If I were you I'd brew up a hop monster and re-evaluate. Check around, but if you want I can suggest two or three recipes that if you think their insipid after you taste them you are crazy, or maybe it's your water and detergent....?

Steve da sleeve

 

[michaelzero]

Water, detergent, seems to me Brewers love to critique the process when it may in fact be the recipes! Of course blondes (except for my wife) are not at all to my liking... If I were you I'd brew up a hop monster and re-evaluate. Check around, but if you want I can suggest two or three recipes that if you think their insipid after you taste them you are crazy, or maybe it's your water and detergent....?

Steve da sleeve

What I wanted to do when I started out brewing was to make a SNPA clone (more or less) that I was proud of. I still haven't done that! Once I've nailed that I'll expand into the weird and wonderful.

 

[stevedasleeve]

...

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/95599/heve-s-summer-ale