Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[Likefully]

Other than taking a little more tiem I don't see much of a difference doign it that way. Where will you keep the rest of the first runnings while you boil it down? Seems like you'll be dirtying something else no matter what.

I am glad I asked my first question - my impression is that the boil down will make a pot quite messy and a bit of work to clean. Or is it critical to stop boiling down while it is still runny enough not to be difficult to clean?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I am glad I asked my first question - my impression is that the boil down will make a pot quite messy and a bit of work to clean. Or is it critical to stop boiling down while it is still runny enough not to be difficult to clean?

Be sure to add the wort onto the maltose caramel in small amounts then stir well to dissolve the thick syrup off of the bottom, (otherwise it may burn under the boil out of sight once the heat is turned up). The subsequent mixing and boil should clear the boil pot.

 

[joshrosborne]

So, five days in after brewing, I checked the gravity. It still has a good bit of krausen on it and was at 1.034. I'm going to leave it warm for a few more days and see how much it comes down. If it's not below 1.02 by then, I'll probably pitch some new yeast and see if it'll get going.

 

[joshrosborne]

Ok, feeling better now. After a week, it's at 1.022 and the krausen has dropped. I feel like it'll still drop .004-.006. A little higher than I'd like, but not terrible.

 

[georgefudge]

I am a little confused with the fermentation schedule both here and on the CSI site.

Fermentation Process Notes
---------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (7 days at 63F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3 -10 days at 78.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (40 days at 50.0 F ending at 50.0 F)​

First part I understand. Starting low and raising the temp over a week sounds great to me.

As for Secondary fermentation - Why are we reducing the tempreature, especially if there is still some residual sugar to be fermented out? Shouldn't we leave it at a higher temp to encourage the yeast to finish it off? Dropping the temp at this point, especially in a high alcohol enviroment would only encourage the yeast to floc out and give up. Taste and aromatics are mainly made in the first few days of fermentation, so it shouldn't make a difference to its flavour profile. Unless you want higher levels of Acetylaldehyde that the yeast didn't get a chance to clean up?

 

[Kee]

I am a little confused with the fermentation schedule both here and on the CSI site.

Fermentation Process Notes
---------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (7 days at 63F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3 -10 days at 78.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (40 days at 50.0 F ending at 50.0 F)​

First part I understand. Starting low and raising the temp over a week sounds great to me.

As for Secondary fermentation - Why are we reducing the tempreature, especially if there is still some residual sugar to be fermented out? Shouldn't we leave it at a higher temp to encourage the yeast to finish it off? Dropping the temp at this point, especially in a high alcohol enviroment would only encourage the yeast to floc out and give up. Taste and aromatics are mainly made in the first few days of fermentation, so it shouldn't make a difference to its flavour profile. Unless you want higher levels of Acetylaldehyde that the yeast didn't get a chance to clean up?

CSI can answer those question more eloquently than me, but in the meantime, the temperature is only lowered when at or near final gravity (1.012).

You are right that most of the flavor profile is established in the first few days of fermentation. However, that short time is not sufficient to introduce the complexities desired in this beer.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I am a little confused with the fermentation schedule both here and on the CSI site.

Fermentation Process Notes
---------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (7 days at 63F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3 -10 days at 78.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (40 days at 50.0 F ending at 50.0 F)​

First part I understand. Starting low and raising the temp over a week sounds great to me.

As for Secondary fermentation - Why are we reducing the tempreature, especially if there is still some residual sugar to be fermented out? Shouldn't we leave it at a higher temp to encourage the yeast to finish it off? Dropping the temp at this point, especially in a high alcohol enviroment would only encourage the yeast to floc out and give up. Taste and aromatics are mainly made in the first few days of fermentation, so it shouldn't make a difference to its flavour profile. Unless you want higher levels of Acetylaldehyde that the yeast didn't get a chance to clean up?

The primary is a given of course. When primary is complete the gravity *should* be at or around 1.012 - 1.014 assuming a healthy pitch. Diacetyl can be absorbed in smaller amounts even at slightly lower temps than previously expected. For the Westamalle strain a secondary at two days at 70-75F will consume most of the Diacetyl in what Chris White terms '" an uneccessary temperature modification" The brightening, (tertiary), is only for clarifying the ale but we have noticed some interesting aging and mellowing characteristics as well. Some have skipped this step altogether and done very well. I think the monk's idea on this stage is to clear any exhausted yeast and prepare for fresh yeast at bottling. There are a lot of reasons that this method seems redundant but we do it as a tradition outside of brewing science since it is reported that the monks at St. Sixtus do it this way

 

[Live2Brew]

Hello....thanks for your posts on this clone. Love this beer.

Q on the boil down....have you tried without this step? Curious about the overall impact. Do you know if this step is done for Westvleteren 12?

Apologies if this was already discussed and I missed it.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Hello....thanks for your posts on this clone. Love this beer.

Q on the boil down....have you tried without this step? Curious about the overall impact. Do you know if this step is done for Westvleteren 12?

Apologies if this was already discussed and I missed it.

Yes, it can be done without the wort boil-down. There is a back palate char flavor that some describe as 'tanned leather' in the import. The boil down approximates some of this but it is not necessary to making the clone.

 

[Likefully]

it is reported that the monks at St. Sixtus do it this way

I am very interested to know who reported this I thought they were very very secretive about this beer.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I am very interested to know who reported this I thought they were very very secretive about this beer.

Most of what is available is openly reported in BLAM. The boil-down is an extrapolation based on trials and flavor.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Most of what is available is openly reported in BLAM. The boil-down is an extrapolation based on trials and flavor.

Wasn't it also largely to reproduce the color characteristic?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Wasn't it also largely to reproduce the color characteristic?

Yes, I think saq implemented the boil down to boost SRM. It's a good point to bring up also. Saq then began using D-180 for both color and flavor. Since D-180 was darker the wort boil down was used only intermittently, (or possibly the extra effort was too much for an already complex brew).

Admittedly, I have not used a boil down in some time since D-180 already adds the profile palate without it.

 

[SavoryChef]

By doing the 1 gallon boil down I got 92% efficiency, I usually get 83%.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Yes, I think saq implemented the boil down to boost SRM. It's a good point to bring up also. Saq then began using D-180 for both color and flavor. Since D-180 was darker the wort boil down was used only intermittently, (or possibly the extra effort was too much for an already complex brew).

Yes, that's when he still used 2 pounds of D-90 and only 1 of D-180, which, by itself, resulted in a low SRM. Changing it to 3 pounds of D-180 and no D-90 darkens it sufficiently.

 

[joshrosborne]

Checked my gravity today, which would be 12 days since brew day. To my happiness, it had got down to 1.014. I racked it to secondary on some bourbon barrel staves I had cut into one inch chunks and soaked in bourbon for a couple months.

I'm super impressed with this recipe; I've never used this yeast before and it is an absolute beast. In 12 days, it went from 1.092 to 1.014. No fusels and just the slightest amount of heat for such a green beer. The amount of flavor in a beer brewed with one grain and candi syrup is amazing. Kudos to everyone who put in hard work to perfect this recipe. Once I get the oakiness I want, I'm going to bottle and let it age for some time. I brewed it for my daughter's first birthday in June, so I probably won't open one until then.

Cheers!

 

[ThunderpantsBrewing]

So maybe this has already been concluded, but are you guys saying that if I use 3 lbs D-180 Candi Syrup, I don't need to do the boil down? I think the boil down sounds like a neat step, but if I can avoid work, I'll do whatever it takes.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

So maybe this has already been concluded, but are you guys saying that if I use 3 lbs D-180 Candi Syrup, I don't need to do the boil down? I think the boil down sounds like a neat step, but if I can avoid work, I'll do whatever it takes.

Yes, the boil down was an extrapolation early on. It does add more maltose caramel and some color but is *not* essential to making this ale remarkably close to the import.

 

[ultravista]

subscribing

 

[ruger988]

Hopefulyl I'm not going to far off topic with this post but thought some may be interested. I'm doing a scaled down version of this as a dubbel tomorrow. Going to do the boil down and everything, cutting it back to 1lb of D-180 and shooting for ~7.5% ABV, using Brewer's Gold this time as well instead of the Magnum I used in my quad.

 

[Kee]

Hopefulyl I'm not going to far off topic with this post but thought some may be interested. I'm doing a scaled down version of this as a dubbel tomorrow. Going to do the boil down and everything, cutting it back to 1lb of D-180 and shooting for ~7.5% ABV, using Brewer's Gold this time as well instead of the Magnum I used in my quad.

A lower gravity version (OG 1.076) worked out very well for me. (It was an accident but a happy one). The FG was way down there around 1.005 or 1.006.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Tried a true Westvletern 12 again last night (my second ever). Are they supposed to be consistent in taste? I could swear that this bottle was not as malty, not as fizzy, and more fruity than the bottle I had several months ago. Also, the Westy was served cold, which seems a mistake, since the taste improved significantly as it warmed up. Does anyone know what the recommended temperature for serving a Westvletern should be? Based on my observations last night, my guess would be between 50-55 F.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Tried a true Westvletern 12 again last night (my second ever). Are they supposed to be consistent in taste? I could swear that this bottle was not as malty, not as fizzy, and more fruity than the bottle I had several months ago. Also, the Westy was served cold, which seems a mistake, since the taste improved significantly as it warmed up. Does anyone know what the recommended temperature for serving a Westvletern should be? Based on my observations last night, my guess would be between 50-55 F.

Our exact observation as well. This year, (2014), seemed to be a year of change for the Westy 12 import. We attributed it to a change in the grist, possibly all Pils rather than Pils/Pale. That same observation prompted us to split the Westy clone recipe out to a single malt Pils only version, (in addition to the BLAM Spec version).

(we serve the Westy's at 60F)

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Hopefulyl I'm not going to far off topic with this post but thought some may be interested. I'm doing a scaled down version of this as a dubbel tomorrow. Going to do the boil down and everything, cutting it back to 1lb of D-180 and shooting for ~7.5% ABV, using Brewer's Gold this time as well instead of the Magnum I used in my quad.

A dubbel with Brewers Gold is really good. There is a Westy 8 clone with D-180 and Brewers Gold out there for reference (or modification).

 

[Bottoms_Up]

(we serve the Westy's at 60F)

I agree - I think that 60 F might be even better than 50-55.

 

[ruger988]

A dubbel with Brewers Gold is really good. There is a Westy 8 clone with D-180 and Brewers Gold out there for reference (or modification).

Got a link? Brewed mine up today and hit dead on target at 1.070. I'd like to see how similar the 8 recipe out there is.

 

[Kee]

Got a link? Brewed mine up today and hit dead on target at 1.070. I'd like to see how similar the 8 recipe out there is.

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_8_clone_-_041.pdf

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Got a link? Brewed mine up today and hit dead on target at 1.070. I'd like to see how similar the 8 recipe out there is.

Yep, Kee linked it above. Cheers.

 

[gotbags-10]

I have a question about the wort boil down. It seems you can do without it but I'm wondering what affect that will have on my OG? Would I need to compensate by adding more sugar? Also it was mentioned to not use a plastic fermenter. I have one of the new fast ferment plastic conicals that I would love to use on this beer. I can dump trub, harvest the yeast and it has a thermowell for temp control. What affects would this have to use it? Another option is that I could use it for the first two phases of fermenting and for the final lagering transfer to a keg for. Would that work? Thanks for any help. Awesome thread!

 

[GregKelley]

If you boil down more of the wort, you are removing water thus raising your OG.