Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[Saiko]

This is an excellent thread. Thanks for all the effort you put into compiling this information.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

This is an excellent thread. Thanks for all the effort you put into compiling this information.

I agree and I'd like to thank Bottoms_Up for the monumental effort in distilling a previous thread. That kind of work took hours and should be a paid effort but he dd it for the love of the craft. Well done

We have A LOT of brew testing to post in the next few weeks with segments on each stage, (with pics), that make brewing this Westvleteren 12 clone successful and flawless each time.

 

[user 141939]

So there are now two different recipes on here. The original with no specialty malts and higher amount of boiled down wort. And the second with a ton of specialty malts and less boiled down wort.

I guess I can just decide for myself which one I want to do? I'm gonna go ahead and pick the first one I guess.

Also wanted to say thanks to those who spent their time sharing all this info for the rest of us. I'll be making this as my first quad sometime soon!

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[orangehero]

No one's trolling you are just overly sensitive and defensive. If it doesn't matter what he gets, then what's the problem? If you have access to the actual syrup potentially used by Westvleteren or the other Trappist breweries, why would you go looking for an imported copy? You're welcome to keep playing semantics, but that's what I meant by "real". We get it your product is "world class superior real" syrup. Saq was making award winning Westvleteren clones well before you came along (with an 80 SRM syrup no less).

All the promotion aside, I believe you that some European breweries use CSI syrups but didn't you create the syrups just because the real candi syrups were not easily available in the US (or imports have slowed as you say)? I have never seen the real candi syrups sold here except what you can get sent from overseas, and the shipping isn't cheap. I don't know where they're readily available to homebrewers...can you point me to where I could try them inexpensively?

I'm still curious what products he has available to him, there must be one with the correct SRM. Like you said in the other thread, this is a great base recipe to branch out from for experimentation. And considering the flavor and color in large part depends on the syrup used, it's a perfectly valid ingredient to look into.

On that Dutch website there's a 1900 EBC (965 SRM!) syrup for half the price.

Thanks for putting this thread together though!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

So there are now two different recipes on here. The original with no specialty malts and higher amount of boiled down wort. And the second with a ton of specialty malts and less boiled down wort.

I guess I can just decide for myself which one I want to do? I'm gonna go ahead and pick the first one I guess.

Also wanted to say thanks to those who spent their time sharing all this info for the rest of us. I'll be making this as my first quad sometime soon!

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Yes, cloning the Westy 12, (based on BLAM spec), is done with only 2 grains. This is the one in the first post of this thread.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

This is one of the most serious ales in the world and deserves the best that we have to contribute. Let's keep the trollers off the board.

(On the left hand side of the post you'll see a small red triangle with a black exclamation mark inside. If you see a troller, please don't IM me. Just click and report them. The HBT admins are great about booting trollers permanently off the board).

 

[GreenWing]

This is one of the most serious ales in the world and deserves the best that we have to contribute. Let's keep the trollers off the board.

(On the left hand side of the post you'll see a small red triangle with a black exclamation mark inside. If you see a troller, please don't IM me. Just click and report them. The HBT admins are great about booting trollers permanently off the board).

Done and done! I'm not new to brewing but new to the thread. This an amazing thread. Best I've seen on the web.

 

[Likefully]

I am seriously impressed and grateful for the detail shown in this thread.

I am not going to be able to easily get my hands on candi syrup here (South Africa). I don't know much about different makes and grades of syrup.

As far as I can see I can get golden syrup, maple syrup or molasses syrup. I can also get a range of different honeys. I know they won't come close to candi syrup and i know what that means for the end result.

What is likely to give me the best result out of those options (in bold)?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I am seriously impressed and grateful for the detail shown in this thread.

I am not going to be able to easily get my hands on candi syrup here (South Africa). I don't know much about different makes and grades of syrup.

As far as I can see I can get golden syrup, maple syrup or molasses syrup. I can also get a range of different honeys. I know they won't come close to candi syrup and i know what that means for the end result.

What is likely to give me the best result out of those options (in bold)?

If color is not too much of an issue then Lyle's Golden Syrup is the only one that will have a similar affect with the yeast. Molasses may seem like the better option but the final palate will be off-putting due to the iron content.

 

[orangehero]

I am not going to be able to easily get my hands on candi syrup here (South Africa). I don't know much about different makes and grades of syrup.

At the risk of making CSI feel like he's getting trolled, you can give making your own a try if you can't get any commercial products. In my personal experience it is easy to do and you can make some awesome tasting syrup.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/

http://nateobrew.blogspot.com/2011/08/candi-syrup-secrets-and-how-to-make.html

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

http://lifefermented.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/diy-belgian-candy-syrup-1-sugar-science/

 

[meadowstream]

You can malt your own barley, culture your own yeast, grow your own hops, too.

CSI makes excellent product - if you are going to buy what he makes then I think you will be buying the best available.

There is no reason for this provocation, IMO. This is a homebrew forum where we enjoy each other's company. Chill out and have fun with this recipe and beer.


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[orangehero]

Although it's hard to convey tone in typed responses, provocation is not my intention. You can also buy beer at the store, yet here we are. That's a rather asinine point to make on a website dedicated to making your own beer. And although CSI wants you to buy their product, discussing other syrups and alternatives is not trolling. It's simple, if you are unable to see any value in the links I provided, then carry on and ignore the post.

 

[Sippin37]

Well back to the subject at hand, cloning a great beer. I just brewed this up today. Thank you for all of the helpful tips posted into one area. Question for the OP - do you see any issue with doing the tertiary fermentation in a keg at 40F instead of 50F?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Well back to the subject at hand, cloning a great beer. I just brewed this up today. Thank you for all of the helpful tips posted into one area. Question for the OP - do you see any issue with doing the tertiary fermentation in a keg at 40F instead of 50F?

As long as your gravity is already at (1.012-1.013), brightening at 40F is fine. Are you using a temp controlled brightening tank?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

We bottled a 10 gallon variation test version of this today, (brewed with all Dingeman's Pale). It was our 39th edition of this ale. This trial was much maltier but even with a breadier pallet the bittering hops came through in a much crisper way. Brewers Gold + Pale may be worth mentioning.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

you can malt your own barley, culture your own yeast, grow your own hops, too.

Csi makes excellent product - if you are going to buy what he makes then i think you will be buying the best available.

There is no reason for this provocation, imo. This is a homebrew forum where we enjoy each other's company. Chill out and have fun with this recipe and beer.


Sent from my iphone using home brew

+1

 

[Kee]

As long as your gravity is already at (1.012-1.013), brightening at 40F is fine. Are you using a temp controlled brightening tank?

Speaking of deviating from the recipe, just a quick comment and question. My first batch I had a wort chiller leak and ended up with a low OG (1.076). It turned out to be maybe the best beer I've ever made. I am sure that you have the process very well dialed in by now, but do you have anything to share about variations from the recipe that turned out well?

Yes, I know that the question is slightly off subject (since we are cloning the Westy 12) but relevant in the sense that most of us do not have the same controls as a commercial operation.

Thanks again for a great product.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Well back to the subject at hand, cloning a great beer. I just brewed this up today. Thank you for all of the helpful tips posted into one area. Question for the OP - do you see any issue with doing the tertiary fermentation in a keg at 40F instead of 50F?

That's exactly the temperature I have been lagering my Westy at for the last almost 4 weeks. I have another pilsner in my temperature controlled freezer, so have had to average the two temperatures (30 and 50). I understand that other Belgian beers are lagered at about this temperature.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

We bottled a 10 gallon variation test version of this today, (brewed with all Dingeman's Pale). It was our 39th edition of this ale. This trial was much maltier but even with a breadier pallet the bittering hops came through in a much crisper way. Brewers Gold + Pale is may be worth mentioning.

That sounds much closer to the Westvletern taste that my palate picked up. I thought that you already used Brewers Gold and Dingeman's Pale in your previous editions. What other differences dio you think account for the improved taste in this edition?

 

[spexicola]

I have a question on the wort boil down.

I did a practice run on this tonight in preparation for a run at this beer in a few days. I boiled the wort down to thick syrup, but it didn't get to a mahogany color. More like dark amber-red, as in C120's hue. It had a flavor much like crystal malt. Tangy, malty caramel.

Is the wort syrup to be stirred steadily, or does one treat it like a sugar syrup and let it stir itself with convection? I tried leaving it alone, but was getting some scary rates of carmelization that made me start stirring again. The boil would go still for 20 seconds or so, and then erupt out of the syrup with a lot of burned sugar smell (didn't manifest in the flavor, thankfully).

I've got some practice at making my own dark syrups. Mine aren't anywhere near as good as CSI's though. However, this wort syrup has a lot of protein in it, and I'm not sure how to handle it.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Is the wort syrup to be stirred steadily, or does one treat it like a sugar syrup and let it stir itself with convection?

CSI is the ideal person to answer that. However, I seem to recall reading in the previous thread, that the syrup should be continually stirred, especially when the volume becomes small. Otherwise, part of it could burn, and you would end up with a burnt taste rather than a caramelized taste.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

That sounds much closer to the Westvletern taste that my palate picked up. I thought that you already used Brewers Gold and Dingeman's Pale in your previous editions. What other differences dio you think account for the improved taste in this edition?

Yes, the grist is normally a balancing act between Pale and Pils in holding strictly to the BLAM template.

Last year we noticed a reduction in the bready palate coming from the import so we tried Pils only (with clear wort decoction) and it matched up very well. This more recent brew was another variation test sans decoction using all Pale only. Wanted to emphasize the Pale-malt-only affect on the Brewers Gold. It was really, really nice

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

CSI is the ideal person to answer that. However, I seem to recall reading in the previous thread, that the syrup should be continually stirred, especially when the volume becomes small. Otherwise, part of it could burn, and you would end up with a burnt taste rather than a caramelized taste.

Yes, definitely do not want to burn the wort on boil-down.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I have a question on the wort boil down.

Is the wort syrup to be stirred steadily, or does one treat it like a sugar syrup and let it stir itself with convection? I tried leaving it alone, but was getting some scary rates of carmelization that made me start stirring again. The boil would go still for 20 seconds or so, and then erupt out of the syrup with a lot of burned sugar smell (didn't manifest in the flavor, thankfully).

I've got some practice at making my own dark syrups. Mine aren't anywhere near as good as CSI's though. However, this wort syrup has a lot of protein in it, and I'm not sure how to handle it.

Agitation is a pain but necessary for the wort boil-down. We have eyes on it from first bubbles to caramel. Maltose caramelization accelerates quickly so it has to be stirred constantly. Charring the long chain saccharides can create acrid flavors so the last five minutes are key. Once it's ready, we like to get it off of the heat quickly.

 

[Sippin37]

As long as your gravity is already at (1.012-1.013), brightening at 40F is fine. Are you using a temp controlled brightening tank?

Yes I will be putting it in a corny keg in my kegerator which has a temp controller set to 40F. I will let it age in there for awhile and then turn the gas on to carbonate. I will bottle directly from the keg unless you feel the end product is drastically better priming with the D180 syrup?

Thanks

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Yes I will be putting it in a corny keg in my kegerator which has a temp controller set to 40F. I will let it age in there for awhile and then turn the gas on to carbonate. I will bottle directly from the keg unless you feel the end product is drastically better priming with the D180 syrup?

Thanks

In following the traditional bottle refermentation we have never force carbonated the Westy so I have no comparison. I have the kegs and equipment but have never used it on the Westy 12.

 

[catdaddy66]

I will make this recipe! Have read about this "12" and have convinced myself to try it. Since I can't travel to Belgium, I must brew it. Life is short, right??


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[ruger988]

I brewed a similar attempt at a nice quad/Westy clone recently and just moved to the keezer for teritary ferm today (40*.) Had a question though... reading through this thread you have teritary temps listed on page one as 50* and ending at 50* (40 days). On page two, you say 60* and ending at 36* (50 days.)

I'm probably just going to end up leaving it at 40* for 45-60 and bottling it, but was curious as to the differences in your posts and which ended in a better clone, or if there was any noteable difference?

Thanks!

For the record I did the following:

10lbs Belgian Pils
5lbs Belgian Pale
1lb Special B
2lbs D-180

.75oz Magnum @60 with a 90 minute mash (150*) and boil. OG was 1.088 and FG was 1.008, today's sample was f-ing phenomenal.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Had a question though... reading through this thread you have teritary temps listed on page one as 50* and ending at 50* (40 days). On page two, you say 60* and ending at 36* (50 days.)

If you're referring to posts #1 and #21, the latter post is a copy of the original "revised" recipe by saq. Post #1 is a subsequent revision by CSI.

In post #21, as I read it, saq's goal was 5 days at 83 F, 2 days at 65 F, and 50 days at 60 F. Instead, his actual brewing appears to be have been 18 days at 83 F, 3 days going from 80 F to 60 F, and 3 days going from 60 F to 36 F. After that, he doesn't say how long he actually lagered it for. I assume it would also be for about 50 days, or even less, since it was at a lower temperature.

 

[ruger988]

If you're referring to posts #1 and #21, the latter post is a copy of the original "revised" recipe by saq. Post #1 is a subsequent revision by CSI.

In post #21, as I read it, saq's goal was 5 days at 83 F, 2 days at 65 F, and 50 days at 60 F. Instead, his actual brewing appears to be have been 18 days at 83 F, 3 days going from 80 F to 60 F, and 3 days going from 60 F to 36 F. After that, he doesn't say how long he actually lagered it for. I assume it would also be for about 50 days, or even less, since it was at a lower temperature.

Ahh, that clears it up. The whole 2 recipesin one thread thing threw me off. Thanks!