Water treatment.....or not

[Ale_Jail]

So I have been searching on here for awhile on this topic. I read the sticky on water treatment in the science of brewing. But I also keep seeing people say of you have good tasting water....you will make good tasting beer.....

I am currently brewing extracts but I am planning on going to BIAB now. How important is water treatment and do I really have to do anything to my water to get good tasting beer? Will the beers I brew now taste the same when I do an all grain batch instead of extract? I currently brew cottage house saison and a very popular sweet orange wheat I found on this site....they were all-grain recipes but I was able to convert them to extract using beersmith2 and they turned out great.

So I guess my main question is.....how important is treating your water if you have good tasting tap water right now?

 

[Yooper]

Water is crucial.

I have GREAT tasting water. It's great out of the faucet.

My beer with the tap water sucks, unless I am making a stout. I make a world class stout with my tap water- it's fantastic. I made a terrible kolsch with that same water.

The thing to know is the alkalinity. You can get by without knowing anything else to start, but you need to find out the alkalinity of your tap water.

Ideally, you'd know a bit more- but that is the bare minimum. Can you call your water supplier and get some bare info?

 

[TexasWine]

^^^^ What she said. Water chemistry/composition is the very reason certain regions of the world are known for making certain style of beers.

I think you have two choices. Figure out what beer tastes good with your local water, and stick with brewing only that style. Or figure out what you need to do with your water to accommodate a range of styles. Of course, a third option is to make mediocre beer.

Personally, I start with RO water and build from there.

 

[Ale_Jail]

I plan on contacting my municipal water for a water printout with the minerals/alkalinity on it.

Is the alkalinity the ph? As long as it's in the 5.3-5.6 range life should be good? Adding other minerals can come later with research?

If I can get my hands on RO water....as long as I do the bare minimums stated on the brewing science sticky.....the beer should be pretty good? That is....assuming I hit temps and are able to hold them and maybe a few other things.....but as far as minerals....and water goes....that should be good?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I would say if you've never done all grain at the very least get that process under your belt before you even start to worry about water adjustments..Its not as easy as you my think to adjust your water without messin it up big time..ask me how I know..I think water adjustments would be the very last thing on your list.If your water tastes good out of the tap and your extract taste good so will your all grain.

 

[Kampenken]

I plan on contacting my municipal water for a water printout with the minerals/alkalinity on it.

Is the alkalinity the ph? As long as it's in the 5.3-5.6 range life should be good? Adding other minerals can come later with research?

If I can get my hands on RO water....as long as I do the bare minimums stated on the brewing science sticky.....the beer should be pretty good? That is....assuming I hit temps and are able to hold them and maybe a few other things.....but as far as minerals....and water goes....that should be good?

Here's what you can do, go to Bru'n Water, read the instructions, look at all the little comments (if you know Excel, you will know the little red triangles in the upper right hand corner of the cells denote comments). Read these, you will understand shortly what you need to input and what you can get by without. Now go to your water dept with what you wish to request- I had- pH, Na, Cl, Ca, Mg, S04, alkalinity, total hardness and all were in mg/L which you will want to know how the figures were measured. By requesting that specifically, if you have a good company they will honor the request, otherwise you may need to go the Wards Lab report. But do this. Managing water is not that difficult and will only help.

Oh, an no on the pH. Likely your tap pH will be in the 7.5-8.1 range or so, the 5.3-5.6 is a mash pH range you will target. Read up on Bru'n Water, you'll learn what you need in no time

 

[tennesseean_87]

Here's what you can do, go to Bru'n Water, read the instructions, look at all the little comments (if you know Excel, you will know the little red triangles in the upper right hand corner of the cells denote comments). Read these, you will understand shortly what you need to input and what you can get by without. Now go to your water dept with what you wish to request- I had- pH, Na, Cl, Ca, Mg, S04, alkalinity, total hardness and all were in mg/L which you will want to know how the figures were measured. By requesting that specifically, if you have a good company they will honor the request, otherwise you may need to go the Wards Lab report. But do this. Managing water is not that difficult and will only help.

Oh, an no on the pH. Likely your tap pH will be in the 7.5-8.1 range or so, the 5.3-5.6 is a mash pH range you will target. Read up on Bru'n Water, you'll learn what you need in no time

If he's just getting into all grain, AJ's water primer will be fine. I used it for years and made great beers. I would stick with that rather than risking a sub-par batch form unknown tap water. Building form AJ's instructions isn't that hard, so I'd start there rather that just going with straight tap water.

 

[Moose_MI]

I also have great tasting tap water and made good beer with it....but I also made bad beer. Hefe's and Creme ales were just not good. Started using 50-75% RO and things got a lot better. I would strongly encourage you to read the first post of the water primer. If you follow the simple suggestion in that first post you could save yourself a lot of frustration.
You don't have to use software .... You don't have to be a chemist....just blend in some RO and add a few ounces of acid malt like it says to in that first post.....

 

[Ale_Jail]

Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do....but I think after reading the primer a couple times and the advice here...might be simpler to start from RO.

 

[Moose_MI]

Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do....but I think after reading the primer a couple times and the advice here...might be simpler to start from RO.

Exactly....when you don't know your water, and you don't want to use software, and you don't want to be a chemist you can simply use RO and follow the simple guidelines in that first post. For me this made a huge differnce in my lighter beers like hefe's and Kolsch. I also used to get a lot of astringency when the beer was young. It would eventually go away but it bothered me. Now my young beer just tastes young...but not like an old dish rag

 

[Homercidal]

Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do....but I think after reading the primer a couple times and the advice here...might be simpler to start from RO.

This is true. You can always use straight RO water and just add whatever you want.

I usually do this, but it's nice to know what's in your water just in case. You MAY have really good water for most styles, or for light beers. You never know.

Your water dept may not be able to give you all you want to know. Ward Labs will test your water for just about $30.

I'm like Yooper. I'll use my own water for dark beers (or 50/50, depending) but RO is pretty cheap and easy for me to buy, so I generally just keep a couple of 5 gallon jugs on hand and use that.

The science behind water treatment for homebrewing is kind of fun once you get a handle on it.

 

[TheMuffinMan]

The one thing that I absolutely have to do to my water is dechlorinate it. I use one campden tablet for all the water I use in my beer. Other than that I leave it alone. It's made a huge difference on the lighter beer styles!

 

[Terek]

water is very important. especially if you have water like mine. I use well water and it is insanely hard and alkaline. I started doing additions after 4 years of brewing and saw (tasted) a difference instantly.

Try downloading bruin water. really easy to use once you figure it out and its very accurate

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

 

[Ale_Jail]

Well I did get a report from my municipal water company. Here are the numbers:

pH = 7.3
Fluroide = 1ppm
Nickle = 9.8ppb
NO3-N (Nitrate) = .37ppm
Sodium = 2.40ppm
Sulfate = 22ppm
antimony total = .1ppb
arsenic = 1ppb
Barium = 0.013ppm
Water Hardness = 16 grains per gallon or 272 mg/L

Anything else I am going to want or is this a pretty good list and the Bru'N Water will work it's magic for me? If there is something else I need let me know. I'm looking at all my options. No matter what, I am going to start water treatments.

 

[TheMuffinMan]

My understanding was that all city water was treated with either chlorine or chloramine...am I missing something? I'm located in California. Good for you not having to deal with chlorine

 

[Homercidal]

Well I did get a report from my municipal water company. Here are the numbers:

pH = 7.3
Fluroide = 1ppm
Nickle = 9.8ppb
NO3-N (Nitrate) = .37ppm
Sodium = 2.40ppm
Sulfate = 22ppm
antimony total = .1ppb
arsenic = 1ppb
Barium = 0.013ppm
Water Hardness = 16 grains per gallon or 272 mg/L

Anything else I am going to want or is this a pretty good list and the Bru'N Water will work it's magic for me? If there is something else I need let me know. I'm looking at all my options. No matter what, I am going to start water treatments.

You don't have quite enough information to make proper adjustments. If your municipality can't get you those things, it's well worth the $30 to send a sample to Ward labs. Check their website on how to submit a sample using a water bottle from the grocery store.

While that's being done, read up on all the threads and even consider buying the book: Water from brewer's association. It's pretty decent.

 

[Ale_Jail]

Looks like I will be sending in a sample to ward labs....The municipal water company does not have the figures I need....I'll use RO water for now, and make those basic adjustments mentioned in the sticky. Once I get the sample back, I'll start looking into Bru"n Water and see what I can do. Thank everyone for all the help!

 

[dmcman73]

Exactly....when you don't know your water, and you don't want to use software, and you don't want to be a chemist you can simply use RO and follow the simple guidelines in that first post. For me this made a huge differnce in my lighter beers like hefe's and Kolsch. I also used to get a lot of astringency when the beer was young. It would eventually go away but it bothered me. Now my young beer just tastes young...but not like an old dish rag

I always go for that old dish rag taste...is this not the correct way?

 

[makisupapolice14]

Hey all to piggy back, for treating 5 gallons of ro for a hoppy, light beer do you all follow ajs primer and add 10g of gypsum and 10 g of cacl? I know reading through the primer at times aj says he thinks that might be too much haha and to use 5/5g of each. Anyone compared each?

 

[McKnuckle]

10g each of CaCl and gypsum in 5 gallons will produce the following extreme (approx.) values. It will also make the mash pH very low, requiring significant adjustment:

Ca 267 ppm
Cl 254 ppm
SO4 294

Go easy with this stuff. Even 5g each is a lot, but the numbers will be half the above, and semi-reasonable (plus pH closer to 5.4). There are some of us who are much more conservative. I like to keep Cl under 100 and SO4 under 150 in all styles.

 

[gspot]

Hey all to piggy back, for treating 5 gallons of ro for a hoppy, light beer do you all follow ajs primer and add 10g of gypsum and 10 g of cacl? I know reading through the primer at times aj says he thinks that might be too much haha and to use 5/5g of each. Anyone compared each?

That's too much. IIRC, the primer recommends 1 tsp CaCl per 5 gals. Later in the thread there was a discussion of how much that weighs, and somebody tested it and came out with an average of something like 3g per tsp. You'll have to reread the primer to check my numbers, but my point is 10g is WAY too much.

 

[makisupapolice14]

That's what I thought but aren't those his recommended values for the primer? I've added 5g of each for partial mash recipes with relative success but haven't done my first biab yet. I was planning to use ro and use 2% acid malt and 5g each gypsum and cacl

 

[makisupapolice14]

Ok a generic tsp to g conversion says 1tsp=5g

 

[McKnuckle]

3.9g gypsum = 1 tsp
4.2g CaCl = 1 tsp

But it's much better to use a small scale that supports 0.1g increments.

Anyway, the primer is a guide for those who don't feel like experimenting. Many of us have experimented, used water calculators and pH meters, and come up with our own preferred mineral concentrations. There is not a one-size-fits-all approach to water treatment.

 

[gspot]

Yep, I agree. I recommend a gram scale and Brunwater spreadsheet. My additions still end up being very close to what is recommended in the primer, but I (and my beer) appreciate the greater precision.

 

[makisupapolice14]

I have and use a gram scale as well. Just new to the h20 treatment thing since I've only dabbled with 5g for a partial mash. Since I'm using ro as a base to start I'll follow the primer and go from there with my own water and spreadsheets later on.
Thanks for the exact gram conversions! The primer thread is so damn long and has some conflicting guidelines (even from its originator)

 

[user 30639]

Did my first BIAB over the weekend and used water from the house run through a charcoal filter. We'll see how it turns out. I'm planning on adding raspberry and jalapeno to it, so even if the water is a little off, I figure those two additions will handle any off-flavors.

 

[Veldy]

My water is city water pumped from an aquifer. Blasted with chloramine. For pale ales, IPA, Stouts, Browns or similar beers with high mineral content, I simply use 100% tap water. I treat all my tap water with sodium metabisulfate to drive off chlorine and chloramine. For lagers or low mineral styles, I usually cut my tap water 50/50 with reverse osmosis water. In rare cases, I'll cut more and add minerals back (bohemian lagers), but I haven't generally found it worth the trouble.

Coon Rapids, Minnesota here.

 

[McKnuckle]

Like so much in brewing, water treatment is based on personal situations. Many are lucky to have "good enough" water straight out of their tap, or at worst, the tap water requires minor treatment.

Some of us have unusable tap water and must resort to alternate sources. The options are usually bottled spring water, RO, or distilled. In the latter two cases for certain (and usually all three), some minerals must be added back to make the water suitable for mashing. So it forces those of us in that camp to learn about this stuff.

As such, if you truly have a problem with the water pumped into your home, well-intentioned advice from people who say "I just use my tap water, and it's fine" is not really helpful. It's like telling a person who complains about feeling ill that "Well I feel fine, so..."

 

[Ale_Jail]

As such, if you truly have a problem with the water pumped into your home, well-intentioned advice from people who say "I just use my tap water, and it's fine" is not really helpful. It's like telling a person who complains about feeling ill that "Well I feel fine, so..."

So what is considered as having a bad water problem at home? We just drink water straight from the tap. It tastes great, no mineral flavor or anything. When doing extract batches I never treated it. Didn't even treat for chlorine anything like that and my beer turned out fantastic.

 

[masonsjax]

Calculating and targeting a specific water profile per recipe will always make better beer than guessing or doing nothing. Give it a try, it's worth the effort. Definitely if you're doing all grain batches.

 

[McKnuckle]

So what is considered as having a bad water problem at home?

Well water with extreme hardness (300+), sodium and chloride both over 100, bicarbonate over 200, and which actually looks slightly brownish-red when viewed through plastic pipe.

We soften it so it doesn't rot our pipes. But that makes it ridiculously high in sodium and still high in bicarb, very much unsuitable for brewing... or drinking, really. So we buy Poland Spring by the 5 gallon jug and have a water cooler in the kitchen.

That's a water problem at home.

I have a water distiller now ($75), which produces about a gallon at a time over 4 hours. I brew small batches, so I can easily stockpile 10 gallons of water to have ready for brewing. Cheap solution for me.

 

[Yooper]

So what is considered as having a bad water problem at home? We just drink water straight from the tap. It tastes great, no mineral flavor or anything. When doing extract batches I never treated it. Didn't even treat for chlorine anything like that and my beer turned out fantastic.

We have great tasting water here. It's hard (that's good for brewing) and alkaline (not good for most brewing) but it tastes great right out of the tap.

I can make a great stout with my tap water as is, but my kolsch made with tap water was harsh and not great.

It has to do with the mash pH. I can make fantastic dark beers (due to the roasted grains that help lower the mash pH), but my lighter grained beers had some water related flavor issues.

Most of us are living in areas where we have safe and usually good tap water, but for me that wasn't good enough for great beer. I starting mixing my tap water with RO water (after getting a water report from Ward Lab), or using 100% RO for some beers, and the beer is much better for it.

Mash pH is a crucial part of great beer.

 

[gspot]

Most of us are living in areas where we have safe and usually good tap water, but for me that wasn't good enough for great beer. I starting mixing my tap water with RO water (after getting a water report from Ward Lab), or using 100% RO for some beers, and the beer is much better for it.

+1. My tap water is actually pretty good for drinking--only moderately hard and not excessive with regard to minerals and chlorine. Makes good beer, too.

However, the beer is even better starting with RO and adding CaCl, lactic acid or sauermalz depending on grain bill, and possibly gypsum depending on style/hopiness.

I even prefer to drink RO water over my pretty good tap water because it tastes purer and fresher. So while water filtration and treatment is definitely a personal choice based on your water supply, I'm of the opinion that, done correctly, it can only help make better beer. I can't think of any downsides.

 

[Ale_Jail]

Thanks for all the advice. Sorry for going around in circles a bit....I am starting to understand it a bit. Going to get a ward labs report and use Bru'n Water. I've looked at it and it seems to be a good solution.

 

[Homercidal]

So what is considered as having a bad water problem at home? We just drink water straight from the tap. It tastes great, no mineral flavor or anything. When doing extract batches I never treated it. Didn't even treat for chlorine anything like that and my beer turned out fantastic.

For extract, if you like the taste of your water, and you and others like the taste of your beer, then tap water may be "fine".

For All Grain brewing, the pH of the mash is important for the enzymes to convert the starches to sugars.

I think my water tastes pretty good. The town adds Chloramine to prevent problems inside the pipes (google search Flint Water...) and although I don't really taste it in my water, the effect it has on fermented beer is much more noticeable. I add a half a campden tablet to each batch to ensure the chloramines are neutralized, even though I use RO water. I can't be sure the RO water I buy from the store has been filtered slow enough to remove the chloramines.

Beyond the chloramines, I need to reduce my alkalinity. The acids from dark malts cut this somewhat, but unless I'm brewing a very dark beer, it's usually not enough to get my pH down into the 5.2-5.4 range.

When figuring up what salts to add to get the pH down where it needs to be I generally end up just using RO water and starting from scratch. It also makes it much easier to repeat the next time since I don't have to worry about my home water profile changing down the road.

 

[Kampenken]

Thanks for all the advice. Sorry for going around in circles a bit....I am starting to understand it a bit. Going to get a ward labs report and use Bru'n Water. I've looked at it and it seems to be a good solution.

Good call, you won't be disappointed! Lots of good advice here you're receiving. For 100% extracts water is not as critical, no mash.

I brewed once at my brother's house with his water. He's always low on OG, on his light color brews it turned out, thought it was something in his process / equipment, but I was low too (on light color brew) with my equipment. Turned out to be his alkalinity kept his mash pH too high. He is adjusting now and is hitting his OG! Amazing the difference.

Yooper suggested Bru'n Water over Brewer's Friend water adjuster, which I was using, due to BW's mash & sparge water addition profiles, and that she found worked best for her. It is working great. Thanks Yooper!

One more word of advice- Read through BW, if you use it, before brew day to get your plan down. Lots of good information there, it may take awhile to absorb, but it really does end up being very straight forward- at least at the homebrew level!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

So I have been searching on here for awhile on this topic. I read the sticky on water treatment in the science of brewing. But I also keep seeing people say of you have good tasting water....you will make good tasting beer.....

I am currently brewing extracts but I am planning on going to BIAB now. How important is water treatment and do I really have to do anything to my water to get good tasting beer? Will the beers I brew now taste the same when I do an all grain batch instead of extract? I currently brew cottage house saison and a very popular sweet orange wheat I found on this site....they were all-grain recipes but I was able to convert them to extract using beersmith2 and they turned out great.

So I guess my main question is.....how important is treating your water if you have good tasting tap water right now?

Probably the biggest misconception in brewing. I wish I could kick the person in the nuts who started that. Knowing basics about water would have saved me so much time/effort/money in the beginning.

 

[mabrungard]

Probably the biggest misconception in brewing. I wish I could kick the person in the nuts who started that. Knowing basics about water would have saved me so much time/effort/money in the beginning.

Thanks for the confirmation! The only truth that can be inferred from that adage is that: if the water tastes bad, you can't brew with it. Taste is not likely to indicate if a water is suited for brewing.

It sounds like you are one of the people that found out the hard way, that their water had certain characteristics that resulted in some poor brewing results. The typical culprit is excessive alkalinity.

Water is the #1 ingredient in brewing, but it isn't the typical source of flavor in beer. Malt, hops, and yeast are. But if you don't attend to your water, it can screw up the rest of those flavor producers.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Thanks for the confirmation! The only truth that can be inferred from that adage is that: if the water tastes bad, you can't brew with it. Taste is not likely to indicate if a water is suited for brewing.

It sounds like you are one of the people that found out the hard way, that their water had certain characteristics that resulted in some poor brewing results. The typical culprit is excessive alkalinity.

Water is the #1 ingredient in brewing, but it isn't the typical source of flavor in beer. Malt, hops, and yeast are. But if you don't attend to your water, it can screw up the rest of those flavor producers.

Yup. High alkalinity. Here is my water analysis from Dec 2013 (post filter water).

Its probably time to get another test to see if anything has changed.

I'm currently just using straight Distilled water with additions, but thinking about a Coffee Oatmeal Stout with either 50/50 Tap/Distilled or 25/75 Tap/Distilled.



pH 8.5

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 266
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.44
Cations / Anions, me/L 5.1 / 5.6

ppm
Sodium, Na 38
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 61
Magnesium, Mg 4
Total Hardness, CaCO3 169
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 9
Chloride, Cl 18
Carbonate, CO3 16
Bicarbonate, HCO3 244
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 226
Total Phosphorus, P 0.16
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01