Water treatment for a Czech Pils

[bessieflames]

So I am just now learning a little bit about water profiles and water treatment and I have a question about Calcium in a Czech Pilsner. I live in Portland which has extremely soft water. It is basically the same profile as the water in Pilzen. I have been reading that Calcium is necessary for everything from protein coagulation to yeast health, and I am wondering if I need to add calcium chloride. I am going to adjust the mash pH with lactic acid, so I don't need the calcium chloride for pH adjustment. Ray Daniels says to use soft water and acids to adjust the pH. How important is the Calcium considering the fact that I would be adding Chloride in the process? I have read also that calcium is more important with today's malts than it was back when they first started brewing pilsners in Bohemia. I was thinking about adding just a little bit of calcium chloride and epsom salts to give a little bit of Calcium without giving too much Chloride or sulfate and having the sulfate ratio at 2.63 which favors maltiness. I am doing a double infusion mash. Opinions?

Portland Water:
Ca 1.8
Mg 0.7
Na 3.6
Cl 2.4
SO4 0.0
CaCO3 12

Adjusted Water (with MgSO4 and CaCl2)
Ca 23
Mg 4
Na 4
Cl 41
SO4 15
CaCO3 12

 

[Dok]

Typically from what I have done with this style is lower my RA by diluting with distilled water and adding both CaCl and CaSO4 so that my chloride to Sulfate is at a ratio of 1:1 and my Ca levels are at least 60.

 

[weirdboy]

Can you do a decoction mash instead? If it were me, I'd keep the water the way it is (which is a great base for Czech Pils IMO) and do an acid rest and decoction.

 

[Dok]

This is what I would prolly do:

100% tap water
added to 3 gallon water in mash (liquor) (if this where a single infusion).
.9g CaSO4
1.7g CaCl
.9g MgSO4
this would give you:

Ca 59 Mg 9 Cl 72 SO4 75

With your additions have you will be tending towards the malty side. For your tap water you may need to increase your Ca and Mg for fermentation. With these additions you have your Mg levels up to 9 and Ca up close to 60. But I guess the real question is how your results have been in the past. Have past batches been good (attenuation, flocculation, balance of flavor, etc) when you do a similar style? Have you brewed light beers before with your tap water? I would personally rather use salts instead of acids.

 

[mabrungard]

Its sad to see old wive's tales perpetuated in print and on the internet. Even authors like Daniels (who I otherwise appreciate) perpetuate the myth that soft water is necessary or desirable in brewing. Its not true!

Part of the problem is that many people confuse hardness and alkalinity. That is probably the genesis of this issue in the first place. The OP's post even mentioned Daniel's recommendation to control pH with acid. Acid affects alkalinity, but not hardness. In the case of light colored beers, alkalinity in the brewing water must be low in order for the mash pH to fall into the desirable range. If anything, increasing hardness enhances the natural acid production from the grain. Water hardness is almost always good. Excessive hardness (especially from magnesium) might not be so good. The typical recommendation of 40 to 50 ppm minimum calcium concentration is a good thing to strive for in ANY beer.


Don't fixate on the chloride and sulfate ratio. It is not always a good indicator of flavor perception performance. Don't be afraid to add more calcium chloride to bump up the calcium level. I suggest 40 ppm as a minimum and its OK to bring it to 50 ppm if you're more comfortable with that information.

With regard to the importance of calcium due to today's malts compared to historic malts, there is some merit in that statement. Today's malts typically don't require decoction in mashing, historic malts did. I think that the process of decoction helps liberate calcium from the malt matrix and that may be a reason that it was more successful to brew with low calcium water. Knowing what we now know of water chemistry and malting, it doesn't make sense to make due with low calcium level in brewing water.

This is a case where you are well advised to follow the recommendations of the Water Primer and add minerals as suggested there. In addition, all brewers should adhere to the following mantra:

HARDNESS: GOOD

ALKALINITY: BAD

Enjoy!

 

[bessieflames]

Its sad to see old wive's tales perpetuated in print and on the internet. Even authors like Daniels (who I otherwise appreciate) perpetuate the myth that soft water is necessary or desirable in brewing. Its not true!

Part of the problem is that many people confuse hardness and alkalinity. That is probably the genesis of this issue in the first place. The OP's post even mentioned Daniel's recommendation to control pH with acid. Acid affects alkalinity, but not hardness. In the case of light colored beers, alkalinity in the brewing water must be low in order for the mash pH to fall into the desirable range. If anything, increasing hardness enhances the natural acid production from the grain. Water hardness is almost always good. Excessive hardness (especially from magnesium) might not be so good. The typical recommendation of 40 to 50 ppm minimum calcium concentration is a good thing to strive for in ANY beer.

Where do you get the information that soft water is not desirable for a pilsner? Wouldn't excessive hardness give a minerally taste to a light beer? I have heard from many sources that a very soft water rounds the hop profile for Czech Pilsners. Other Pilsners such as German Pils I can see having higher mineral content. I think that is part of the difference between a Bohemian and a Bavarian pilsner. Correct me if I am wrong, but this just what I have been reading (including BJCP style guidelines).

So what I am hearing is that having Calcium present is important enough that it is worth upping the SO4 and Cl2 levels to get it. I think I will take that advice.

I'm not sure what led you to believe that I don't know the difference between alkalinity and hardness. I said I was going to adjust the pH with acid, not the hardness. If I didn't use acid, I would have to add a LOT of CaCl to properly acidify my mash according to the water program I am using, and that would add too much hardness for the style.

 

[bessieflames]

This is what I would prolly do:

100% tap water
added to 3 gallon water in mash (liquor) (if this where a single infusion).
.9g CaSO4
1.7g CaCl
.9g MgSO4
this would give you:

Ca 59 Mg 9 Cl 72 SO4 75

With your additions have you will be tending towards the malty side. For your tap water you may need to increase your Ca and Mg for fermentation. With these additions you have your Mg levels up to 9 and Ca up close to 60. But I guess the real question is how your results have been in the past. Have past batches been good (attenuation, flocculation, balance of flavor, etc) when you do a similar style? Have you brewed light beers before with your tap water? I would personally rather use salts instead of acids.

So far, my beers have been good. I have brewed everything with plain old tap water and everything has been all good except that my beers don't taste as bitter as the calculated IBU's say they should. I have a CAP that tastes great. The only dark beer I did was a black IPA and I added the dark malts during the sparge. I think it would have been bad if I had them in during the mash. I haven't noticed any yeast problems with the lack of Mg and Ca, but I would like to add them to benefit the yeast. I just got a pH meter, so this will be the first time measuring and adjusting the pH. With my water, I can't get the mash to the right pH without adding a lot of hardness. I was going to test it without acid and with the Calcium levels adjusted properly and have the lactic acid on hand to adjust if necessary.

 

[bessieflames]

HARDNESS: GOOD

ALKALINITY: BAD

Enjoy!

Isn't some alkalinity good and even necessary to balance the acidity of the dark malts in a porter and a stout? I thought that was the whole reason that different beers were traditionally brewed in different places.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm not sure what led you to believe that I don't know the difference between alkalinity and hardness.

My apologies to you. That comment was not directed to you specifically, but was specifically directed to Ray Daniels and his errant remark on water.

On to the other questions. Calcium is a relatively flavor-neutral ion and having a slightly elevated concentration does not impact beer taste greatly. The other ions frequently associated with that calcium are sulfate and chloride and they do add flavor impacts to the finished beer. Of the two anions, chloride presents a softer and rounder taste and is typically preferred in a light lager. AJ Delange has an extensive history with European Light Lagers and recommends calcium chloride as an addition to distilled or RO water when brewing those beers. He also reports that elevated sulfates clash with the typical noble hops used in those beers. He recommends keeping sulfates as low as possible. I don't brew these styles, so I can't confirm the sulfate recommendation, but I don't doubt that its true. Don't use the chloride/sulfate ratio as one of your water adjustment criteria. It is a very flawed concept that is useful only in some cases. Keep sulfate low for this style.

With that recommendation to increase the calcium content of your tap water, recognize that it should not be overdone. Calcium helps, but when the concentration reaches about 50 ppm, I'm not sure there is any additional benefit in increasing the calcium content. And considering the goal to not excessively influence the beer taste with the water when brewing this style, I would tend to the lower threshold of 40 ppm calcium that I mentioned. There is not definitive proof that 40 ppm is sufficient to produce the effects that 50 ppm does, but its got to be better than a much lower calcium content.

You mentioned bumping up the calcium relatively high with calcium chloride to help drive down the residual alkalinity and the mash pH. I wouldn't do that since you are likely to create the minerally-ness that you are cautious of in your post. Keep it around 40 ppm and use acid or acid malt as needed to promote desirable mash pH.

 

[bessieflames]

You mentioned bumping up the calcium relatively high with calcium chloride to help drive down the residual alkalinity and the mash pH. I wouldn't do that since you are likely to create the minerally-ness that you are cautious of in your post. Keep it around 40 ppm and use acid or acid malt as needed to promote desirable mash pH.

Sounds good. Very good advice. I wasn't sure how necessary the Calcium was compared to the increase in hardness, but it seems like it is worth it. The hardness would still be pretty low. I was planning on doing exactly what you recommend, and have lactic acid on hand to adjust pH if necessary. It's always nice to get water advice from a P.E. focused on WRE. I just passed my FE exam this October. Taking the P.E. next October in Civil Engineering-Water Resources and Environmental.

 

[bessieflames]

Oh--and you had said to keep the Ca to So4 ratio at around 1. Should I do that or keep the SO4 as low as possible and have the ratio be more like 3. I was thinking about adding a little MgSO4 to get some Mg in the water since I have none and it is beneficial in low levels.

 

[bessieflames]

How does this look?

Portland Water:
Ca 1.8
Mg 0.7
Na 3.6
Cl 2.4
SO4 0.0
CaCO3 12

Adjusted Water (with MgSO4 and CaCl2)
Ca 50
Mg 9
Na 4
Cl 87
SO4 34
CaCO3 12

According to my software, I would need 2mL of lactic acid. I would wait on that until I took my first pH reading.

 

[mabrungard]

Let go of the ratio. Keep the sulfate low.

Magnesium is contributed by the malt, so its debatable if additional Mg is needed in the water. At a minimum of about 5 ppm Mg, there is improved yeast performance and that was proven in lab trials. But, I'm not sure what the composition of the fermentables in the lab trial was. If it was a simple sugar, then its possible that they started with a Mg deficient wort. If it was a malt based fermentable, then there should have been some Mg in there. I've got the feeling that they used a simple sugar to reduce the variables. That could mean that a malt based wort would not need any additional Mg added to avoid yeast Mg deficiency. I would keep the Mg under 5 ppm for this light style. I do like a little Mg in some other beers since it adds a bitterness and sourness that can be beneficial to my palate.

Good luck with the PE testing. Its an 8-hour test that you'll only want to take once. Study a broad range of engineering applications for months ahead of time to do well.

 

[bessieflames]

Let go of the ratio. Keep the sulfate low.

Magnesium is contributed by the malt, so its debatable if additional Mg is needed in the water. At a minimum of about 5 ppm Mg, there is improved yeast performance and that was proven in lab trials. But, I'm not sure what the composition of the fermentables in the lab trial was. If it was a simple sugar, then its possible that they started with a Mg deficient wort. If it was a malt based fermentable, then there should have been some Mg in there. I've got the feeling that they used a simple sugar to reduce the variables. That could mean that a malt based wort would not need any additional Mg added to avoid yeast Mg deficiency. I would keep the Mg under 5 ppm for this light style. I do like a little Mg in some other beers since it adds a bitterness and sourness that can be beneficial to my palate.

Good luck with the PE testing. Its an 8-hour test that you'll only want to take once. Study a broad range of engineering applications for months ahead of time to do well.

Sounds good. CaCl all the way then. I did the FE exam and it was brutal, but I passed it with extra time left over. I have heard that the PE test is a little easier because it is more narrow in focus and it is open-book and open-note.

 

[strangatang]

Hey Martin, I’m using bru’n water to help with my upcoming Czech pils. I used their “Pilsen” profile (calcium 7, mag 2, sodium 2, sulfate 8, Chloride 6, bicarbonate 16) & am using 100% distilled as a base. I see your comments about getting calcium higher and so I’m definitively going down that route. My question is that bru’n is pointing me towards Chalk as opposed to CaCl, which mainly seems to be to adjust PH. Any thoughts on that? Using their spreadsheet I’m easily able to get calcium where you recommend and hit 5.3 PH but it’s with chalk instead.

Grain bill is 9.5lbs Pilsner, .25lbs carahell, .05lbs Acid

 

[strangatang]

Apologies, disregard! My mineral adj were way off bc I had an errant lactic Acid mash addition that shouldn’t have been there. Removed that and now the CaCl addition makes complete sense

 

[mabrungard]

Regarding the issue of targeting low ionic content water and achieving enough calcium content to precipitate oxalate, using RO or distilled water and adding all the calcium salts for the batch into only the mashing water can help. There is a setting in the supporter’s version of Bru’n Water that helps.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I did a Czech pils last year with very soft water. All RO water and a small amount of CaCl added, 1.5 grams for 4.5 gallon batch. Came out pretty much perfect. Super clean Czech pils.

 

[strangatang]

Great to hear. I did Czech pils yesterday, 5gal, with all Distilled and similar additions (1.2g CaCl, .2 Epsom, .1 canning Salt, .2 chalk). PH 5.34 and OG 1.052 were spot on. It’s downstairs in brand new temp controlled fridge holding at 51 degrees. I’m very excited for my first lager.