Water profile: what really matters?

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

So I'm making a cream ale. I plug my tap water into Bru'n water, and I set my desired profile, and what do I find? That I'm going to be using mostly distilled water to lower the mineral profile, adding back in some things for balance.

Buying distilled water is a pain in the butt for me, since I don't own a car. Also, it's an added expense. So, all things being equal (I know they're not), I'd rather just use my tap water.

Which leads me to my question. What facts about a water ratio matter? By "matters," I mean really matter. So like, I get that if you brew a pilsner with Philly tap water (treated with Campden, of course), it's going to taste different and have a higher mineral profile than one brewed with water collected from melted mountain snow in Bohemia. But maybe the Philly pilsner would be fine, just with distinctive regional characteristics. So by "matters," I don't mean just what would give a beer characteristics not distinctive to its beers brewed with water from its geographical region of origin, but what would really make a difference to its objective quality. Like, if your pilsner tastes tannic or metallic, that would be a big deal, not something you can chalk up to its being a Philly pilsner as opposed to a Czech one.

I'm pretty sure that pH matters, because of tannins. (Relatedly, although I'm sketchy on this and my understanding is outsourced to the Bru'n water spreadsheet, I suspect overall bicarbonate level also matters for a mash's ability to remain stable at a given pH.) I'm pretty sure the sulfate/chloride ratio matters for balance. Not having too much sulfate probably also matters, since beers with that tend to have an eggy taste or smell perhaps appropriate in some beers and not others. And maybe it matters that your tap water isn't too high in magnesium, or else your beer might give you the runs. (But then your tap water would, too, which is its own problem!)

What else really matters in a water profile when it comes to a beer's objective quality, and not just its regional character?

And don't get me that "taste is subjective" stuff because I use the phrase "objective quality." Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "not obviously an off flavor," where we can say that an off-flavor is either objectively bad, or just something widely regarded as bad, like being tannic.

 

[mongoose33]

The two things that likely matter the most are alkalinity and sulfate/chloride ratio.

I have very hard tap water and am in the same situation as you, it sounds like. My typical brewing liquor has a gallon of tap water and the rest is RO water. Yesterday for a BIAB I had 6.5 gals of RO water, 1 gal of tap water. I add salts and such to correct the water to what I need.

Alkalinity matters hugely because it influences pH, as you noted above. But the sulfate/chloride ratio (and amounts) influence how hoppy or malty a beer tastes, or if it's balanced.

I bought RO water once, and that was all it took me to put in an RO system. Bought it from Buckeye Hydro, and I'm including a pic below of what my rather primitive approach includes. I had about, IIRC, about $130 into it so I figured at $5/brew saved it would take me 26 brews to recover its cost. I'm at 29 brews with it now.

In the long run, if you're going to brew a variety of beers, and many of them will be lighter in color, you're going to have to use distilled or RO water for most of your brewing liquor.

*****************

In the pic below, I'm using a hose-attachment to draw water from the faucet spout, and I store that water in an Aquatainer. I drilled out the vent hole to 1/4" and the RO output line fits snugly and perfectly in there.

The beauty of a system like this is it can be moved and stored, so if you're in a place where permanent changes are impossible, this can be used. Mine just hangs on the wall; it's in the garage so if temps threaten to get to freezing in there, I can move it into the house if necessary.

I always refill the aquatainer while I'm brewing so the next time I have 7 gallons of RO water ready to go. I also keep 8 distilled water gallon jugs full of RO water just to have a backup.

 

[Braufessor]

What is your water profile? That would help a lot.

pH matters.... that is number one for sure.

From there, excessively high numbers may, or may not be a concern depending on the style you are brewing.

Cream ale..... 5.2-5.3 pH and modest numbers in regard to Ca, Sulfate and Chloride (50 ish give or take).

The sulfate to Chloride ratio is not the point - what are the total numbers 10ppm:5ppm is not the same as 100ppm:50ppm...... but the ratios are the same.

Bicarbonate is generally unwanted in lighter color beers.

Modest - low sodium and Mg.

**Edit - also..... any non beer related minerals or issues like high iron, sulfur, or "bad" minerals that could harm the flavor (may present itself in the fact that your tap water is bad to drink). Or, water from a water softener with excessive minerals like sodium is bad as well.

 

[eric19312]

Agree with Braufessor. Interested in thinking about your water profile. Sounds like you are dealing with hard water and or high alkalinity. Might be boiling with slaked lime option and decanting off the chalk option. I've never had to deal with hard water and curious to see theory of how that would work.

 

[Yooper]

Agree with Braufessor. Interested in thinking about your water profile. Sounds like you are dealing with hard water and or high alkalinity. Might be boiling with slaked lime option and decanting off the chalk option. I've never had to deal with hard water and curious to see theory of how that would work.

It works! You can add pickling lime to your water, and stir well, and the bicarbonate will precipitate out, as long as you add something like gypsum to help provide more calcium (if needed). http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

The thing is, it's a bit messy. I had a trashcan of water to try to do this with, and I did it only a couple of times before just saying "screw that!" and buying an RO unit.

The only thing that really matter is to NOT use a profile! What I mean is this- the bicarbonate target isn't even a target. The thing that really matters is to use water with as little alkalinity as possible. That will make everything right- you can find it much easier to hit an appropriate mash pH and then use any salts as "seasoning", just as you would with food. In a case of making a beer with a higher percentage of roasted malt, it could be necessary to have a bit of alkalinity but in most cases, the less alkalinity, the better.

With your tap water, it's important to know what you're dealing with. It may be fine to use, with minor adjustments. Or it may be not fine, and difficult to work with without diluting with RO water.

In my case, my water tastes great. There is even a water bottler in our area, because the water tastes great right out of the tap. The thing is, it's not good for brewing anything except for stouts due to the high alkalinity. So knowing what you're starting with is crucial. Especially for lighter colored beers.

 

[ajdelange]

There are two aspects relating to a water's suitability for brewing a particular beer. The first is technical and the second aesthetic. The technical aspect is the alkalinity. It is a major factor in establishing mash pH. The higher the alkalinity, the higher the mash pH. Thus low alkalinity waters are preferred for most beers with the exception being those with a lot of dark malts. Note that the pH of the untreated water is unimportant except for the most precise work. The alkalinity number alone is sufficient in most cases.

The aesthetic aspect depends on sulfate, chloride, sodium and magnesium. These are sort of like salt and pepper in the sense that they effect the flavor of the beer. Each has its own effects independent of the others. IOW you cannot describe a beer by its sulfate to chloride ratio any more than you can define a stew by its salt to pepper ratio.

Calcium has not been mentioned thus far. It is fairly flavorless though a lot of it lends a minerally quality to water and beer. It does have a modest ability to cancel alkalinity which should be taken into account if the water is very hard (high in calcium). If there is a lot of it there will usually be a lot of alkalinity too. The water is then said to have high 'temporary hardness' as both calcium and alkalinity (bicarbonate) can be removed fairly easily either by heating or treating with lime as has been discussed here.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Well, I was kind of asking a general question, not specific to my water profile or any particular style of beer. Like, what are the normal things to pay attention to regarding water if you're not so concerned with matching some old European town's water profile?

I think my tap water profile is fairly normal, perhaps low in calcium and sulfate. This is what I use in Bru'n water, a combination of its bicarbonate estimator, my city's water department report, and some profiles I've found on the Internet:

Ca: 46
Mg: 12
Na: 46
Bicarbonate as HCO3: 84.1
CO3: 0.1
SO4: 44
Cl: 92

To take that and turn it into something like the American Lager profile on Bru'n water, I had to dilute it heavily with distilled water and then add back in some gypsum and epsom salt.

 

[ajdelange]

You don't really care about bicarbonate. You should think in terms of alkalinity. In potable water bicarbonate is indeed the source of most of the alkalinity but not all. If you ever treat water with lime or lye you will introduce hydroxyl alkalinity. Also if you should follow your interest in brewing chemistry to the point where you want to understand mash pH, you will find that malt contains alkalinity which has nothing to do with bicarbonate. Unfortunately Brun water considers all alkalinity to be bicarbonate. It forces you to convert reported alkalinity to bicarbonate. It should be the other way around (except that the lab measures alkalinity and reports bicarbonate, if they do so at all, based on a calculation.) This confuses a lot of people. They wonder why, if they tell the program they are adding lime to DI water, it reports that the water contains bicarbonate when in fact it contains note. But adding lime to DI water does increase its alkalinity.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Perhaps. But I'm not currently adding slaked lime or chalk, so I don't think this makes much of a difference in my case. Those numbers are sufficient to plug into other water calculators as well. I also have the pH of the tap water, 7.2.

Let me be clearer. I put that I have a total alkalinity as CaCO3 of 69, and a pH of 7.2, and their program tells me that I have a bicarbonate concentration of 84.1 and a carbonate concentration of 0.1.

 

[ajdelange]

No, its not a big deal by any means. It just bothers me to see people starting out with sloppy thinking being forced upon them.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

The sulfate to Chloride ratio is not the point - what are the total numbers 10ppm:5ppm is not the same as 100ppm:50ppm...... but the ratios are the same.

Do you mean that the ratio doesn't matter at all, or would you agree that both the ratio and the total amount of sulfate and chloride matter? I've always heard that a high sulfate to chloride ratio makes a beer taste hoppier. Independently, having too much sulfate can be an off flavor.

 

[ajdelange]

This is discussed at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109

 

[mabrungard]

Unfortunately Brun water considers all alkalinity to be bicarbonate. It forces you to convert reported alkalinity to bicarbonate. It should be the other way around (except that the lab measures alkalinity and reports bicarbonate, if they do so at all, based on a calculation.)

Sorry, but NO. All potable waters will have the majority of its Alkalinity present in the form of bicarbonate. In addition, upon any acidification of typical tap water, virtually all of the alkalinity is transformed into the bicarbonate form. In the typical mashing range, that condition remains and the reactions with the mash acids become very straight forward.

While the calculation would be similarly easy when using an Alkalinity input, I believe that most people can grasp that it is the bicarbonate ion that is involved in the water's reactions. I don't see an improvement or better understanding of the mashing and water chemistry by relating this information as Alkalinity.

I can see the opportunity to confuse users with whether there is bicarbonate or carbonate in water, but there is equal opportunity in some water reports that present multiple versions and names of alkalinity. I don't see an advantage in using Alkalinity as the input.

 

[Braufessor]

Do you mean that the ratio doesn't matter at all, or would you agree that both the ratio and the total amount of sulfate and chloride matter? I've always heard that a high sulfate to chloride ratio makes a beer taste hoppier. Independently, having too much sulfate can be an off flavor.

The ratio only matters if the amounts are high enough to be of impact. If the total ppm's are low (say 5-10-20ppm) the ratio is irrelevant because they just are not going to impact the beer. When dealing with small numbers, 10:1 or 3:1 or 1:1 is all the same.

Sulfate in amounts in the 100-200-300 range can accentuate whatever hop presence is there. It does not make the beer hoppier, it can just enhance the perception of the hops that are in the beer because it tends to lend a dry/crisp perception to the beer.

I think most people feel that a sulfate level of 150-300ppm is desirable in an IPA or Pale Ale to enhance perception. Chloride, in general, is falling in line with 50-100ppm or less for the most part.

The "New England" type IPA's often push this in a different direction with chloride ppm in the 125-175ppm range and a lower sulfate level in the 50-100 range. This provides a rounder perception of the hops.

But, again..... unless you are talking about numbers in the 100-300 range for sulfate and 40-150 for chloride, the concept of "ratio" is pretty well meaningless. The total numbers are the key..... and, yes, high sulfate numbers do lend to a more assertive perception of the hops in a beer.

 

[Yooper]

To take that and turn it into something like the American Lager profile on Bru'n water, I had to dilute it heavily with distilled water and then add back in some gypsum and epsom salt.

Yes, the dilution is because of the relatively high alkalinity. In order to hit a reasonable mash pH of 5.3-5.5, the alkalinity must be removed. Diluting with RO or distilled water is the easiest way to do that.

You don't have to add ANY epsom salt at all- no need to increase the magnesium. If you want to increase the sulfate, you can do it with gypsum which will increase your calcium as well.

If your calcium is 50-100 ppm, it enhances yeast flocculation and will help prevent beerstone in your system. Otherwise you don't "need" to add anything.

Think of those ions as "seasonings". Sulfate enhances a dry perception in the beer, while chloride makes a sensation of "fullness" or a roundness in the beer. You never need to add a set amount, but most people say that some added makes a less bland flavored beer.

 

[ajdelange]

Sorry, but NO.

No need for an apology as it's actually a yes. For the average potable water at pH 7 then it is perhaps true that the majority of the alkalinity comes from bicarbonate but if we take as an example water with alkalinity of 30 at pH 9.5 with 30 ppm silica (like mine), 100 mg/L sulfate and 1 ppm total phosphorous the total breakdown of alkalinity (pHe 4.4) is

Alkalinity Breakdown

mEq/L ppm as CaCO3 %
H+ 0.04 1.91 6.37%
OH- 0.02 1.13 3.78%
Bicarbonate 0.27 13.30 44.43%
Carbonate 0.08 4.10 13.71%
Phosphate 0.03228 1.61 5.39%
Sulfate 0.00085 0.04 0.14%
Silicate 0.15669 7.83 26.18%

This isn't water you would find every day but it's not that rare to have a fair amount of silicate (I do) and I'm always surprised to see how many people have pH > 9 but quite a few do. In any case, the bicarbonate in this case accounts for less than half the alkalinity with carbonate, silicate and phosphate between them contributing more than the bicarbonate. even the sulfate contributes a wee bit.

All potable waters will have the majority of its Alkalinity present in the form of bicarbonate.

Not so. The example I gave above is clearly potable (the pH is higher than the WHO recommendation but apparently a fair number of water suppliers in the US provide water at that pH level) and less than half of its alkalinity comes from bicarbonate.

In addition, upon any acidification of typical tap water, virtually all of the alkalinity is transformed into the bicarbonate form.

Here's where I have to say "Sorry, NO". When the more common waters (in which the alkalinity really is mostly due to bicarbonate) are acidified the bicarbonate is converted to carbonic which decomposed into CO2 and leaves the solution.

In the typical mashing range, that condition remains and the reactions with the mash acids become very straight forward.

In the typical mash about 10% of the original alkalinity remains as bicarbonate. By acidification all of the carbonate will have been converted first to bicarbonate and then to carbonic. (OH)- will have been converted to water, the phosphates to the monobasic form and the silicates to silicic acid. Some (but not much) of the sulfate will have been converted to bisulfate.

I don't see an improvement or better understanding of the mashing and water chemistry by relating this information as Alkalinity.

There's the pity!

I can see the opportunity to confuse users with whether there is bicarbonate or carbonate in water, but there is equal opportunity in some water reports that present multiple versions and names of alkalinity. I don't see an advantage in using Alkalinity as the input.

It actuality makes things a lot easier to understand and simplifies calculation. By using alkalinity one is able to operate with curves like the carbonate system and phosphate system curves in Palmer's book and come up with proton deficits without keeping track of the different species. I wish you could see this.

 

[ajdelange]

Thought it might be informative to post an alkalinity breakdown for a more common pH e.g. 7. Everything else is the same.

Alkalinity Breakdown
mEq/L ppm as CaCO3 %
H+ 0.04 1.87 6.29%
OH- 0.00 0.00 0.01%
Bicarbonate 0.53 26.60 89.38%
Carbonate 0.00 0.03 0.09%
Phosphate 0.01237 0.62 2.08%
Sulfate 0.01206 0.60 2.03%
Silicate 0.00072 0.04 0.12%

Even here the bicarbonate only accounts for 89% of the alkalinity with the intrinsic alkalinity of the water (H+) being the largest contributor other than bicarbonate. Keep in mind that this is only a function of the alkainity titration's end point (4.4 here - what Ward labs uses) and would be half (on a percentage basis) were the alkalinity doubled to 60. Also note the appreciable drop in silicate's contribution at the lower pH and, of course, the hydroxyl ion contribution is also reduced.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Damn, I think I logged onto the Chinese HBT site again...my head hurts!

 

[z-bob]

In my case, my water tastes great. There is even a water bottler in our area, because the water tastes great right out of the tap. The thing is, it's not good for brewing anything except for stouts due to the high alkalinity. So knowing what you're starting with is crucial. Especially for lighter colored beers.

That's where I am. I've been mixing tapwater and RO water, and adding a little acid malt. That's working pretty well but I don't like buying RO water (the expense is not the point; the stuff is cheap. I don't like the hassle)

Next I'm going to try using lactic acid to acidify the mash, but that's going to take so much acid it might affect the taste. I may have to boil my water and let it sit overnight to make it usable. Or use phosphoric acid instead of lactic.

 

[Braufessor]

That's where I am. I've been mixing tapwater and RO water, and adding a little acid malt. That's working pretty well but I don't like buying RO water (the expense is not the point; the stuff is cheap. I don't like the hassle)

Next I'm going to try using lactic acid to acidify the mash, but that's going to take so much acid it might affect the taste. I may have to boil my water and let it sit overnight to make it usable. Or use phosphoric acid instead of lactic.

I use 88% lactic acid when making additions for pH. Not sure how much you will need to add to your water. I can say that if you are in the 4-5ml per 5 gallons of water you should be fine for sure in regard to taste issues. I have used that and had no issues at all. It could be higher..... I just have not used more than that.

 

[ajdelange]

I use 88% lactic acid when making additions for pH. Not sure how much you will need to add to your water.

The exact amount required depends on the pH and alkalinity of the water and the target mash pH but the rule of thumb is 90% of the water's alkalinity.

OP, taken in by the bicarbonate pushers, reports 84.1 bicarbonate which he either took from a Ward Labs report or calculated from alkalinity. The approximate conversion for nominal pH water is bicarbonate = 61*alkalinity/50 if alkalinity is expressed in ppm as CaCO3 or bicarbonate = 61*alkalinity if alkalinity is in mEq/L. The latter are the most convenient units and we want those so alkalinity = bicarbonate/61 = 84.1/61 = 1.4 mEq/L and he will need, therefore, approximately 0.9*84.1/61 = 1.24 mEq of acid per liter of water treated. The strength of lactic acid varies a little according to the target mash pH but is around 11.8 mEq/mL for 88% acid. The easiest thing to do is add somewhat less than that to a liter of the water and then add small additional amounts until the desired mash pH is reached. Or just add acid to the entire volume of mash water until it reaches the desired pH. Then tell your program that you have 0 bicarbonate to calculate any additional acid needed for the grain bill. This way you don't need to know the water's alkalinity or worry about errors caused by using bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity.

 

[stodds]

I keep seeing people refer to the pH of the tap water as being important. I understand the idea of an ideal mash pH for efficiency and color purposes (as I've witnessed firsthand after properly adjusting my mash pH using Bru'n water spreadsheet and the resulting amount of lactic acid). However, it seems that the pH of the water has little to do with the resultant pH of the mash, unlike the mineral constituents.

I'm no chemist, and I tend to rely on others for this kind of information. I suppose I'm not alone, or there wouldn't exist this forum. So, does pH of the water really matter?

 

[z-bob]

I keep seeing people refer to the pH of the tap water as being important. I understand the idea of an ideal mash pH for efficiency and color purposes (as I've witnessed firsthand after properly adjusting my mash pH using Bru'n water spreadsheet and the resulting amount of lactic acid). However, it seems that the pH of the water has little to do with the resultant pH of the mash, unlike the mineral constituents.

I'm no chemist, and I tend to rely on others for this kind of information. I suppose I'm not alone, or there wouldn't exist this forum. So, does pH of the water really matter?

The pH of the water doesn't matter much. I won't go so far as to say it doesn't matter at all because it affects the solubility of other ions like iron, and the equilibrium of carbonate/bicarbonate/dissolved CO2.

 

[Braufessor]

I'm no chemist, and I tend to rely on others for this kind of information. I suppose I'm not alone, or there wouldn't exist this forum. So, does pH of the water really matter?

No - not necessarily.

The overall mineral content of water is the most important thing. If you have a very low mineral content water (RO) the pH - whatever it is, can be pushed with relatively small additions of acid. If you have high mineral content water the minerals in the water "buffer" against any movement in pH. So, larger amounts of acid would be required to make smaller moves in pH in water with high mineral content.

So, you could have high pH water with low minerals and drop the pH easily with very small acid addition. On the other hand, you could have more moderate pH water with high mineral content..... and even moving it a little bit would require more acid.

Ultimately, it is the mash pH with the grain, and water minerals all together that matters. Not the pH of the starting water necessarily.

 

[motosapiens]

I'm not qualified to get in on the sciencey argument, but I will share my impressions as a less sophisticated brewer who likes good beer. I have found that the most important thing to control is the alkalinity. Chloride and sulfate levels (not ratio) also have a significant effect on flavor, more in some styles than others. I'm not sure bicarbonate really matters, at least to my taste buds, but perhaps it would matter more in delicate flavorless unhopped girly beers.

I simply added the amounts of lactic acid that bru'nwater recommended to the mash and the sparge (based on my water report), and my beers instantly became as delicious as anything I have ever tasted commercially.

 

[Ashevillain]

Ok so we have a fresh thread here with a lot of good info. I know this deviates from the OP, but it is a very valuable general question IMO that will help a lot of people searching google/HBT for answers in the future.

If i'm using 100% RO water, and making additions of Sulfate/CaCl in less than ~150ppm. And I'm mashing a batch of 1.050 wort. How much acid malt, or how much lactic acid do I need to achieve an ideal mash PH, or as close to it as possible without having a PH meter?

My research and experience has led me to think 4oz Acid Malt, 4-5ml Lactic. But i've never seen someone specifically state this. I've also used much more lactic with the same variables and had interestingly good results. I know lower PH doesn't cause the problems that higher PH does.

It seems like such an easy reference point to map considering the variables are static enough (100% RO, 1.050 wort, typical mineral additions), but I can't tell you how many searches and threads have lead me down a (informative, yet question evoking)rabbit hole without explicitly stating this general, relatively non-conditional rule of thumb.

 

[Braufessor]

Ok so we have a fresh thread here with a lot of good info. I know this deviates from the OP, but it is a very valuable general question IMO that will help a lot of people searching google/HBT for answers in the future.

If i'm using 100% RO water, and making additions of Sulfate/CaCl in less than ~150ppm. And I'm mashing a batch of 1.050 wort. How much acid malt, or how much lactic acid do I need to achieve an ideal mash PH, or as close to it as possible without having a PH meter?

My research and experience has led me to think 4oz Acid Malt, 4-5ml Lactic. But i've never seen someone specifically state this. I've also used much more lactic with the same variables and had interestingly good results. I know lower PH doesn't cause the problems that higher PH does.

It seems like such an easy reference point to map considering the variables are static enough (100% RO, 1.050 wort, typical mineral additions), but I can't tell you how many searches and threads have lead me down a (informative, yet question evoking)rabbit hole without explicitly stating this general, relatively non-conditional rule of thumb.

Pale beer or dark beer?

 

[Braufessor]

Ok so we have a fresh thread here with a lot of good info. I know this deviates from the OP, but it is a very valuable general question IMO that will help a lot of people searching google/HBT for answers in the future.

If i'm using 100% RO water, and making additions of Sulfate/CaCl in less than ~150ppm. And I'm mashing a batch of 1.050 wort. How much acid malt, or how much lactic acid do I need to achieve an ideal mash PH, or as close to it as possible without having a PH meter?

My research and experience has led me to think 4oz Acid Malt, 4-5ml Lactic. But i've never seen someone specifically state this. I've also used much more lactic with the same variables and had interestingly good results. I know lower PH doesn't cause the problems that higher PH does.

It seems like such an easy reference point to map considering the variables are static enough (100% RO, 1.050 wort, typical mineral additions), but I can't tell you how many searches and threads have lead me down a (informative, yet question evoking)rabbit hole without explicitly stating this general, relatively non-conditional rule of thumb.

Also - if you go to the "Brewing Science" sub forum..... there is a "sticky" post toward the top called "Brewing water chemistry Primer" - It basically has what you are talking about.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[stodds]

If i'm using 100% RO water, and making additions of Sulfate/CaCl in less than ~150ppm. And I'm mashing a batch of 1.050 wort. How much acid malt, or how much lactic acid do I need to achieve an ideal mash PH, or as close to it as possible without having a PH meter?

[...]

It seems like such an easy reference point to map considering the variables are static enough (100% RO, 1.050 wort, typical mineral additions), but I can't tell you how many searches and threads have lead me down a (informative, yet question evoking)rabbit hole without explicitly stating this general, relatively non-conditional rule of thumb.

But you are missing an important variable, grain color. Roasted grains contribute to a lower mash pH.

Grab the Bru'n water spreadsheet. It has you input your water profile, plus your grain bill. Then, you use its estimates to determine how much lactic acid to use. From beer to beer, my water is the same. But the amount of grain (you covered that with 1.050 wort, I suppose), and the color (level of roasty toasty) change the needed amount.

Have you tried the Bru'n water spreadsheet? Play with it. You may find why nobody has ever posted such "use this much acid" -- because there are too many variables.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Actually on a Lovibond color to Lovibond color match basis, caramel/crystal malts are much more acidic than roasted malts/grains.

For example, pound for pound, 80L caramel/crystal is roughly about as acidic as is 300L to 400L roasted. This being from data which Breiss sent to me upon request.

 

[ajdelange]

So, does pH of the water really matter?

Yes it does but as the carbonic acid titration curve is pretty flat at pH values below about 5.5 (i.e. for the most likely range of mash pH's) and above about pH 7 up to about 9 (i.e. where most water pH values fall) the proton deficit of the water doesn't much depend on pH, either of the water or the mash and it is sufficient to know the alkalinity for rough work. Most of the spreadsheets take advantage of this approximation.

For more accurate results one must indeed consider the pH of the water. The proton deficit between the water sample pH and the alkalinity titration end point pH is taken from the titration curve (or the underlying math) and, the measured alkalinity (as adjusted for H+, OH-, phosphate and silicate) is divided by this in order to determine how much carbo is in the system. The proton deficit between sample pH and desired mash pH is then taken from the curve (or math) and multiplied by the total amount of carbo to give the proton deficit of the water to mash pH.

 

[stodds]

Actually on a Lovibond color to Lovibond color match basis, caramel/crystal malts are much more acidic than roasted malts/grains.

For example, pound for pound, 80L caramel/crystal is roughly about as acidic as is 300L to 400L roasted. This being from data which Breiss sent to me upon request.

True. I oversimplified.

But, looks like Bru'n water takes that into account based on malt type.

 

[motosapiens]

If i'm using 100% RO water, and making additions of Sulfate/CaCl in less than ~150ppm. And I'm mashing a batch of 1.050 wort. How much acid malt, or how much lactic acid do I need to achieve an ideal mash PH, or as close to it as possible without having a PH meter?

build a man a fire and you keep him warm for a day. set a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his life. Fortunately, forum member Martin Brungard has given me the tools to set you on fire, and permanently solve your problem.

The answer is to plug your grain bill and water/mineral info into bru'n water, and do what it tells you.

fwiw, sparge ph is also important, at least if you have alkaline water like I do. For my personal water (170-ish alkalinity), the right answer is between 0 and 4ml of lactic acid in the mash, depending on the grain bill and .8 or so ml/gallon of lactic acid in the sparge (unless it's a bavarian hefeweizen, in which case I use half that or less).

 

[ajdelange]

If you have a very low mineral content water (RO) the pH - whatever it is, can be pushed with relatively small additions of acid. If you have high mineral content water the minerals in the water "buffer" against any movement in pH. So, larger amounts of acid would be required to make smaller moves in pH in water with high mineral content.

That depends on whether the minerals (ions) in the water have appreciable buffering capacity in the range of pH under consideration.

So, you could have high pH water with low minerals and drop the pH easily with very small acid addition.

That would be true as low minerals implies low minerals of buffering capacity as well as those that have nearly none.

On the other hand, you could have more moderate pH water with high mineral content..... and even moving it a little bit would require more acid.

That would not be true unless a buffering ion (bicarbonate, silicate at high pH, phosphate) were present. It takes very little acid to move the pH of a strong (in brewing terms) calcium sulfate or calcium chloride solution (waters that have high 'permanent' hardness) appreciably. These (chloride and sulfate) do not buffer at mash or potable water pH.

 

[GoeHaarden]

The answer is to plug your grain bill and water/mineral info into bru'n water, and do what it tells you.

THIS!

I leave the rest to the brains of this forum.

 

[millsbrew]

Brew it twice. Once with RO and once with tap. You'll see if it's worth it.

 

[Apimyces]

My well water is sulfurous and kind of smells like eggs. Is the fermentation likely to gas off these unpleasant aroma, or am I better to keep using store bought distilled water for my brews?

 

[Zilbeer]

Hi,
I use active carbon+ceramic filter system (made by Katadyn).
I use it as my tap water taste isn't that great in general.
My water profile is the following:
Tap:
pH 6.6
Cl- 100.7 ppm
Conductivity 470 micS/cm
Ca+2 - 43.9ppm
Mg 6.94ppm
Total hardness 138.2ppm CaCO3
Alkalinity 118.84 ppm CaCO3
Desolved oxygen 5.98ppm
TDS 230ppm

Filtered water:
pH 7.06
Cl- 57.3 ppm
Conductivity 460 micS/cm
Ca+2 - 42.3ppm
Mg 6.91ppm
Total hardness 133.6ppm CaCO3
Alkalinity 116 ppm CaCO3
Desolved oxygen 5.73ppm
TDS 225ppm

I don't have the sulphate profile as my city doesn't publish it.
What do you think - should I make any adjustments to improve my beers?
I so far brewed 3 times stout, 1 brown ale and 1 amber ale.
I usually like the darker beers but would also like to brew some blonde/pale ones.
Thanks in advance
Ofer

 

[ajdelange]

My well water is sulfurous and kind of smells like eggs. Is the fermentation likely to gas off these unpleasant aroma, or am I better to keep using store bought distilled water for my brews?

No, I don't think it will. There are techniques for removing the sulfide from the water though. You might try aeration first. This is limited in how much sulfide it can remove. After aeration filter the water to trap the sulfur particles. You can also try bleach. Again, elemental sulfur is formed so filter after using bleach too and be sure to wait long enough for the chlorine to dissipate or remove it with metabite. The people who service your well can install equipment that removes sulfur by the methods I've described but that route is, of course, expensive and the equipment has to be maintained (bleach replenished, filter elements replaced etc.).

Depending on what else is in the water distilled or RO may be the better choice and certainly less trouble than removing the sulfur by the methods I've suggested.

 

[ajdelange]

Hi,
Tap:
pH 6.6
Cl- 100.7 ppm
Conductivity 470 micS/cm

Filtered water:
pH 7.06
Cl- 57.3 ppm
Conductivity 460 micS/cm

Something funny here. Filtering may well agitate the water enough to get the CO2 out (rise in pH) but it should not reduce the chloride levels at all let alone by nearly half. The small change in conductivity supports that observation.