Water pH and other issues

[Larso]

Hi, I have a residential water softener that uses a prodcut called 'crystal right 200'. I have full test results pre filtration and test results post filtration for iron and hardness. Heres my test results pre filtration:

post filtration:

I do BIAB with a buffalo 40litre 2.8kw concealed element electric urn. I've been having problems with scorching on my concealed element causing cutouts. Its been suggested to me that this scorching is caused more likely by unconverted four so may be related to efficiency. Theres loads of people doing BIAB in urns like mine, with bags like mine and not having these problems. When that was suggested I relaised that I do have efficiency issues(a recent porter came in at 1.063 missing target of 1.073 and I had upped the grain bill from 5Kgs to 6Kgs, so I would have expected to need dilution ) I've been ignoring the efficiency problem because an extra kilo of grain or so costs very little, so I did some tests. This led to me checking mash pH and I did the following tests:
I BIAB, so the mash is usually about 5~6kgs of grain to 35 litres of water. I want to brew an all pilsener malt ipa in the next few days. A week ago I tested by mashing 3 samples of Marris Otter in my oven, 146grams grain to 1litre tap water(about the same as my BIAB ratio). The first sample wasn't treated, the second had 2grams dls added after dough in(should have been added to dry grain according to instructions -mistake), the third had about a gram of dls added to dry grain pre dough in. I kept all 3 in the mid 60s temp range. The dls calculation was based on my water ra of 50ppm caco3. Anyway, all mashes were maxing out my ph strips at about 6.8. The dls didn't seem to help. I eventually squeezed some lemon juice into one of them and the ph went through the floor, reading 5.2 on my strips which is the minimum they read, so it could have been anything below that.
Can anyone please help and tell me how to treat this water. I actually have an RO tap but it flows a trickle and I've no idea how long it would take to fill my boiler. I have DLS and CRS(and lemon juice).
Please dont tell me that my water is useless as its not practical for me to use bottled water due to the expense....
Any help much appreciated!

Thanks

L

 

[Yooper]

I'd definitely recommend the RO water you have available. I just got a new RO system, and it's slow but mine is rated for 75 gallons per day. I can get 7 gallons out in about two hours, even though it seems a trickle.

 

[mabrungard]

There isn't quite enough information on that water report to allow a full assessment of that water. I see that the softening is necessary because of both iron and manganese, so the water cannot be used in brewing without the softening.

The hardness value provides only a guess at the calcium content. If only calcium was in the water, then that hardness value would suggest about 50 ppm calcium. If all the hardness was exchanged, that would add about 55 ppm sodium to the water. With the existing 10 ppm Na, that may indicate that the concentration could be as high as 65 ppm. That is not good, but its not terrible.

The second part of the report suggests that the softener has some partial bypassing and not all of the hardness is exchanged. That MAY suggest that the sodium concentration added is down around 35 ppm with the finished water having around 45 ppm Na. Not a lot better, but it helps.

An important missing component is the alkalinity of the water. Assuming that all of the hardness is calcium (not likely) and all of the other ions are reported and are correct, the bicarbonate content MAY be in the 135 ppm range (alkalinity around 110 ppm as CaCO3). That pushes the Residual Alkalinity into the 100 ppm range which would neccesitate acidification for most brewing grists to avoid too high a mash pH.

That high RA can be moderated a bit by adding either gypsum or calcium chloride (or Dry Liquor Salts (DLS)) to bring the calcium content back up to 50 ppm from its 20 ppm level in the softened water. That level of calcium addition brings the RA to about 75 ppm. Better, but not good enough for most brews. Acidification will still be needed. The CRS should be suitable for this. When using these materials in the brewing water, the brewer is probably consigning themself to brewing a hoppier beer. If brewing a continental lager, then going with straight calcium chloride and lactic acid would be preferable.

Of course, reading up on brewing water knowledge at the Bru'n Water site would help this brewer. Unfortunately, Bru'n Water does not currently support the use of CRS as an acid. Hopefully that can be added in the near future.

 

[Larso]

Thanks for your inputs guys. Yooper, I think I might try the RO system output. I'm just wondering, do people have some sort of level/flow switch that they use to turn off their RO supply when its filled the boiler or do they just stand and watch it... What do you do? Also, I assume the RO has to be treated, is that simple?
Thanks Mabrungard, but your freaking me out a bit with the whole 'water science'. For me this is not the fun of brewing. I have DLS and CRS, is there some sort of 'titration' or testing I can do to determine how best to treat my water with these, other than paying for another set of tests-theyre not too cheap here, I think I paid about 170euros for the results youre looking at above. I'm working through the Bru'n water website at the moment. I stuck a pH strip in my RO today and its about 6.2--Normal I assume?

Thanks

L

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for your inputs guys. Yooper, I think I might try the RO system output. I'm just wondering, do people have some sort of level/flow switch that they use to turn off their RO supply when its filled the boiler or do they just stand and watch it... What do you do? Also, I assume the RO has to be treated, is that simple?
Thanks Mabrungard, but your freaking me out a bit with the whole 'water science'. For me this is not the fun of brewing. I have DLS and CRS, is there some sort of 'titration' or testing I can do to determine how best to treat my water with these, other than paying for another set of tests-theyre not too cheap here, I think I paid about 170euros for the results youre looking at above. I'm working through the Bru'n water website at the moment. I stuck a pH strip in my RO today and its about 6.2--Normal I assume?

Thanks

L

Mabrungard has a good spreadsheet and information on water chemistry, so he's been my tutor and I would follow his advice!

But he (and another brewing water guru) also taught me that simplicity may be best. RO water and a bit of CaCl2 may be all you need to make great beers. There is a "water chemistry primer" in the sticky above that really helps simplify it.

My RO system does have an auto-shut off, but I haven't used it as it took a couple of hours to get 7 gallons and I was home so I didn't have to babysit, besides going in twice to make sure it was filling the right container!

 

[mabrungard]

If cost is a concern, there are relatively inexpensive hardness and alkalinity test kits for aquarium use that can provide a rough indication of those parameters. Those test kits are frequently used by salt water aquarium enthusiasts.

In terms of ease of use, RO is probably the best way to go. Then its just a simple mineral addition to develop the water profile suited for your brewing. The only time it might fail is when the mash water needs a little more alkalinity to avoid a too low mash pH. Chalk is an uncertain alkalinity contributor. Pickling Lime (Slaked Lime or calcium hydroxide) is much more certain in its alkalinity production. It does require careful handling and dosage. Just be sure not to overdose brewing water with minerals. When in doubt, leave it out.

The 6.2 pH should be fairly typical of a water with little alkalinity that has been in contact with air. It might even be a little less.

 

[Larso]

Thanks guys, I bought bottled mineral water and added 35grams DLS to my 35litre mash volume(BIAB). Mash pH came in about 5.3 and I got 24litres wort at 1.06 from my 6kg lager malt grain bill(3% wheat for head). I'm quite happy with that. Anyway, no way am I buying mineral water for every brew. Yooper, you've convinced me, I'm going to use my RO water. I timed a litre out of it and it was just under 35seconds so I reckon I should be able to get 35 litres in just over 20minutes--not too bad after all!! just need to come up with a flow/level switch to turn it off because I cant even fill the kettle from it without overflowing(thats no joke). I think I'll be buying some gypsum ,calcium chloride and sauermalz and going with the basic approach in the primer. No offence mabrungard but that spreadsheet is a bit heavy going for me at the moment, theres so many other elements to brewing that I feel I need to master first.

Thanks guys!

L

 

[Larso]

My RO system does have an auto-shut off, but I haven't used it as it took a couple of hours to get 7 gallons and I was home so I didn't have to babysit, besides going in twice to make sure it was filling the right container!

Hi Yooper, just tried my RO system at filling my boiler the other day and it was a disaster. I gave up after a few hours. Its 5 stage with a tank. I found that the tank runs empty and I had to turn off the tap for it to refill, it never really got flowing again properly, just a trickle. I'm not even sure if it'd give me the 35litres I need to my BIAB brews in a day???
Its a 5 stage RO unit with a 50gpd membrane. Ive also got very good delivery pressure into it. I'm going to ring the company that sells the replacement filters to ask them what I need to do to get a better throughput.
Whats your thoughts on that? Have you any idea how come yours seems to work for you, what sort of system is it?

Thanks

L

 

[Yooper]

Hi Yooper, just tried my RO system at filling my boiler the other day and it was a disaster. I gave up after a few hours. Its 5 stage with a tank. I found that the tank runs empty and I had to turn off the tap for it to refill, it never really got flowing again properly, just a trickle. I'm not even sure if it'd give me the 35litres I need to my BIAB brews in a day???
Its a 5 stage RO unit with a 50gpd membrane. Ive also got very good delivery pressure into it. I'm going to ring the company that sells the replacement filters to ask them what I need to do to get a better throughput.
Whats your thoughts on that? Have you any idea how come yours seems to work for you, what sort of system is it?

Thanks

L

I have no idea why it works so well! It doesn't have a "tank", though- maybe that's part of it? Here's the one I bought: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gp-5-stage-ro-system-no-di.html

 

[Larso]

I have no idea why it works so well! It doesn't have a "tank", though- maybe that's part of it? Here's the one I bought: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gp-5-stage-ro-system-no-di.html

Damn! I like the price of that one! I've just priced a pump for mine to increase the delivery pressure and its more expensive than your whole unit at 159Euros
I've got to ring the RO people and see what they say.............

Thanks

L

 

[mabrungard]

50 gpd. That's about 2 gallons per hour. A trickle by any measure.

You have to have a bigger tank or plan ahead. I find that to have adequate RO volume for brewing, you need a tank volume that is about twice your batch volume.

 

[ajdelange]

I have DLS and CRS, is there some sort of 'titration' or testing I can do to determine how best to treat my water with these

Yes. Alkalinity is determined by titrating 0.1L of sample with 0.1 N acid. If it takes x mL to reach end point that implies .1*x mEq per 0.1 L or x mEq/L. This is multiplied by 50 to get alkalinity in ppm and CRS is dosed in at 0.87 mL per liter per 160 ppm. You can skip the laboratory part and just titrate with CRS (it's a blend of sufuric and hydrochloric acids). The question is as to the end point. I'd say just titrate down to about pH 5.5 (and strips should be adequately accurate for this purpose) and then scale up the amount of CRS used to the full liquor volume.

I stuck a pH strip in my RO today and its about 6.2--Normal I assume?

Yes

Unfortunately, Bru'n Water does not currently support the use of CRS as an acid. Hopefully that can be added in the near future.

Not trying to make work for Martin but it should be a piece of cake to add it. The Brupaks website says to add 0.87mL to a liter of water to knock out 160 ppm (3.2 mEq/L) alkalinity. Thus CRS is 0.0032/0.00087 = 3.678 N

 

[Larso]

I'd say just titrate down to about pH 5.5 (and strips should be adequately accurate for this purpose) and then scale up the amount of CRS used to the full liquor volume.

Thanks AJ for the clarification. Is that target pH for my mash or for my brewing liquor before dough in? Not that I'd know, but 5.5 seems very low for the brewing liquor before mashing?No?
If I achieve the target pH, do I then need to treat it any other way(e.g. as RO using the brewing water primer) or do I simply proceed with treated water as is?
Also, whats the unit 'N' that you referred to a few times??


Thanks

L

 

[Larso]

I have no idea why it works so well! It doesn't have a "tank", though- maybe that's part of it? Here's the one I bought: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gp-5-stage-ro-system-no-di.html

Hi again Yooper, I see your RO system is specified for aquariums etc as opposed to drinking water? Any idea how these systems differ from drinking water RO systems, if at all??

Thanks

L

 

[ajdelange]

No, 5.5 isn't the target pH for the mash (but it isn't a bad mash pH target either - anything 5.4 - 5.6 at room temp is OK). It is a pH which assures that you have killed most of the alkalinity (converted it into CO2) so that the mash pH won't be effected by water alkalinity. One of the larger craft breweries in California treats all its mash water by acidifying to 5.5 and that is one of several ways of keeping mash pH under control. If you had a pH meter I would advocate tweaking for a mash pH of 5.4 - 5.5 but as the strips are notoriously inaccurate in mash I'm guessing it is better to take a stab at the water and let the mash pH fall where it may. It shouldn't be too far off.

Technically, you probably do need some extra acid to pull the malt buffers but water acidified to pH 5.5 is pretty much like DI water WRT alkalinity and so I'm guessing you'll be OK. Mostly RO per the Primer would probably be a surer bet. We don't know where your chloride and sulfate are and adding CRS will increase them (by indeterminate amounts since we don't know either the amount of CRS you will ultimately need or the ratio of sulfuric to hydrochloric acid in CRS).

The 'N' means 'normal'. A 'normal' solution (written as N, not 1 N) contains 1 equivalent (6.023E23) electric charges per liter. A 2 N solution would thus contain 12.04E23

 

[MNDan]

I have no idea why it works so well! It doesn't have a "tank", though- maybe that's part of it? Here's the one I bought: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gp-5-stage-ro-system-no-di.html

I have the same system and get about the same results - works great & the price was right! I just have a few 5-gallon water polycarbonate carboys that I use for gathering the RO water.

 

[Larso]

We don't know where your chloride and sulfate are and adding CRS will increase them (by indeterminate amounts since we don't know either the amount of CRS you will ultimately need or the ratio of sulfuric to hydrochloric acid in

Thanks AJ, I can only measure accurately down to 0.5ml using a syringe so I added crs to 2 litres of my tap water and 2.5ml got me down to about 5.1pH so for my 36 litres at dough in(BIAB) I'm lookin at somewhere short of 45ml of crs to get to target pH. Does this sound like a ridiculous amount of acid or kinda normal, as I've never used it before? Also I'm thinkin of adding some CaCl because the water is softened. My next brew is a wit and then an English dark ale. Much appreciate the help people.

Thanks

L
Oh, I've found the perfect RO unit, just can't afford it at the moment. Gives about 20/30 litres per hour. On my Santa list!
http://www.vyair.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=129

 

[ajdelange]

If you stick those numbers (45 mL in 36L) back into Brupak's recommendation you should be cancelling 160*(45/36)/0.87= 230 ppm alkalinity. If your water's alkalinity is in that range then this is a reasonable amount of CRS to add. I can't really read your suppliers report but it appears to say that total hardness is 126 mg/L as Ca. That means that 126/20 = 6.3 mEq/L of hardness or 315 ppm as CaCO3 must be balanced by 315 ppm of other things such as alkalinity, chloride and sulfate so I guess 45 mL is reasonable at first blush anyway.