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Water Chemistry Calculator pH Discrepancy

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mopowers

Gearhead who likes beer
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I'd imagine this is probably a common issue, but I entered my next brew into several different water chemistry calculators (EZ Water, Brun Water, MpH, brewer's friend) and seem to be getting quite the range of predicted pH's.

My malt bill is pretty basic (pale ale): 11 lbs 2-row and 1 lb crystal 60L.

Using 100% distilled 4 gal strike water.

My strike water additions are:

CaSO4: 4g
CaCl2: 1.5g
MgSO4: 2g
lactic acid (88%): 1.5

This results in a profile of about (depending on the calculator):

Ca: 87
Mg: 12
Na: 0
Cl: 48
SO4: 199

All of the calculators seem to have very similar profile numbers, but the pH's are interesting:

EZ Water: 5.45
BrunWater: 5.07
MpH: 5.40
Brewer's friend: 5.46

Obviously, BrunWater seems to be the gross outlier. Does anyone know why this may be the case? Am I entering the inputs incorrectly into BrunWater? Why else would it be this way off? Can someone help verify this for me?

I just started brewing, so I don't have a pH meter to measure pH.

Thank you guys!
 
Tell me a bit more regarding the nature of your specific 2-Row and I'll take a shot at it with my 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet.

I.E., is the 2-Row classified as a brewers malt, a pale malt, a Vienna malt, a Maris Otter malt, a Pilsner malt, etc... And is it domestic or European (or other).

One mineral difference you might be encountering for calcium and chloride ions is that the free version of BW presumes anhydrous CaCl2 and the others all presume dihydrate state CaCl2. Mash Made Easy allows for anything from Anhydrous to Dihydrate and everything inbetween (your choice, plus in addition, liquid CaCl2 solutions).

So far, presuming the CaCl2 to be in its dihydrate state, and also presuming the 2-Row to be a common domestic North American Brewers type, I get 5.30 as the mash pH, and subsequently, presuming the 2-Row to be Pilsner malt I get 5.44 as the mash pH, and in addition to this I get 4 other pH's which all fall in-between these two base malt extremes depending upon the specific nature of your 2-Row.

So it looks like BW is truly the outlier.
 
Tell me a bit more regarding the nature of your specific 2-Row and I'll take a shot at it with my 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet.

I.E., is the 2-Row classified as a brewers malt, a pale malt, a Vienna malt, a Maris Otter malt, a Pilsner malt, etc... And is it domestic or European (or other).

One mineral difference you might be encountering for calcium and chloride ions is that the free version of BW presumes anhydrous CaCl2 and the others all presume dihydrate state CaCl2. Mash Made Easy allows for anything from Anhydrous to Dihydrate and everything inbetween (your choice, plus in addition, liquid CaCl2 solutions).

So far, presuming the CaCl2 to be in its dihydrate state, and also presuming the 2-Row to be a common domestic North American Brewers type, I get 5.30 as the mash pH, and subsequently, presuming the 2-Row to be Pilsner malt I get 5.44 as the mash pH, and in addition to this I get 4 other pH's which all fall in-between these two base malt extremes depending upon the specific nature of your 2-Row.

So it looks like BW is truly the outlier.

Thank you so much for your response!

This is the 2-row I use:
http://www.shopbrewmeister.com/index.php/brewing/ingredients/grain/base-malts/two-row-malt.html

I would imagine it would be classified as 'domestic.' I've seen the L value at 1.7 - 2 L. I'd imagine it's a 'brewer's malt' as well.

I'll have to check on which kind of CACL2 I've got. I didn't realize there were different kinds. I just got whatever they had at my LHBS.

Thanks again!
 
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Thank you so much for your response!

This is the 2-row I use:
http://www.shopbrewmeister.com/index.php/brewing/ingredients/grain/base-malts/two-row-malt.html

I would imagine it would be classified as 'domestic.' I've seen the L value at 1.7 - 2 L. I'd imagine it's a 'brewer's malt' as well.

I'll have to check on which kind of CACL2 I've got. I didn't realize there were different kinds. I just got whatever they had at my LHBS.

Thanks again!

Yes, that is representative of domestic run of the mill brewers class 2-Row. So 5.30 is the initial 'Mash Made Easy' prediction for your mash pH.

There is only one kind of CaCl2, but it has a very nagging problem of continually absorbing moisture from the air. It progresses from being nearly anhydrous (packages I've opened generally tested at around 94% pure, and A.J. deLange has seen it reach 96%) to eventually becoming a messy liquid goo blend of water and CaCl2, transitioning along the way from anhydrous to dihydrate (CaCl2.2H2O), trihydrate (CaCl2.3H2O), etc... If you make it into a solution and use it that way it will be appreciably more stable, but will still change somewhat over time. If you leave it as a solid it is anything goes as to its current state. If you heat it in an oven at (what I believe from memory requires) about 425 degrees you will drive off the moisture and return it (for a short while) to near its anhydrous state of purity. The dihydrate state is about 75.5% CaCl2 and 24.5% water by weight.
 
Just out of curiosity: Over a period of time I noticed that the weight measurements of the CaCl I was using appeared to be shrinking in volume. I figured it was due to moisture absorption and started measuring it rather than weighing. Is this a viable solution to the moisture problem at the home brew level?
 
Just out of curiosity: Over a period of time I noticed that the weight measurements of the CaCl I was using appeared to be shrinking in volume. I figured it was due to moisture absorption and started measuring it rather than weighing. Is this a viable solution to the moisture problem at the home brew level?

If you know the weight by volume for prills in the anhydrous state, it could indeed be a viable option.
 
To clarify, the 5.30 mash pH which I predicted is without any lactic acid addition being made to the mash water.

The combination of 11 lbs. of ~5.57 DIpH 2-Row and 1 lb. of ~4.78 DIpH crystal (60L) plus your mineralization into 4 gallons of distilled mash water being sufficient to result in a mash pH of 5.30.

I believe the other calculators which are all clustering in the neighborhood of 5.4 to 5.46 are presuming the deionized mash pH of any "generic" low Lovibond base malt to lie between 5.7 and 5.8, regardless of its base malt 'type' classification.

Briess data which I have on hand indicates 5.57 DIpH to be typical of their 2-Row Brewers malt. I believe 2-Row Rahr should be quite similar. Briess indicates 5.83-5.84 as the DIpH for their Pilsner malt. Their pale ale and Vienna base malts come in at around 5.63 to 5.65 DIpH.

'DI' is shorthand for 'deionized water', and DIpH means deionized water mash pH (with no minerals or anything else added).

EDIT: If I was to add 1.5 mL of 88% lactic acid to the mash water, the 'MME version 5.10' mash pH prediction drops from 5.30 to 5.20.
 
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I'd imagine this is probably a common issue, but I entered my next brew into several different water chemistry calculators (EZ Water, Brun Water, MpH, brewer's friend) and seem to be getting quite the range of predicted pH's.
It is indeed the case.


EZ Water: 5.45
BrunWater: 5.07
MpH: 5.40
Brewer's friend: 5.46

Obviously, BrunWater seems to be the gross outlier. Does anyone know why this may be the case?
Yes. It has been discussed here extensively and in the Brewing Softrware forum as well. In order to predict mash pH reliably you need two things:
1. A program which bases its calculations on the chemistry of the mash
2. Data which accurately describes the malts you intend to use.

The programs you tried have neither. Of them, only the author of Brewer's Friend really seems to understand the chemistry. The others appear to use quasi empirical approaches to modeling mash chemistry which include a number of approximations. One common to all of them, including Brewer's friend, is that malts' titration curves are linear. They are, approximately, linear and in some cases considering them to be so introduces only minor errors but in other cases the errors so induced are larger. Other approximations are linear relationships between water's alkalinity and its bicarbonate content, the assumption that acids and bases have the same strength regardless of pH. Thus the calculators themselves are not robust.

Reliable malt data can only be obtained by measuring the malts. A few people have done some of that but they have not measured the bag you are using so that their measurements can only typify malt characteristics but cannot accurately model the malts you will actually use. Measuring malt characteristics takes a fair amount of work an based on my experiences here trying to coach home brewers through the task is very difficult because they don't understand the chemistry well enough to be able to follow the instructions other than blindly. That aside, it is much less trouble to make a test mash and measure its pH than it is to measure all the malts adequately and insert them into a program that can accept this data. There is no such program currently available.

Most of the available programs try to model the malts' acid/base properties in terms of their color (Lovibond rating) or type (base malt...). While there is correlation between color and DIpH (one of the important malt parameters). It is not nearly tight enough to use as a predictor of DI pH.

Am I entering the inputs incorrectly into BrunWater?
That's always a possibility that you should consider. This particular program has a unique and eccentric way of treating water alkalinity so be sure you are handling that in the way the program wants.

Why else would it be this way off?
No one really knows how this program works and the author isn't talking. From his frequent contributions to this forum we can sort of deduce that its algorithm is based mostly on empirical methods based on the experiences of people who use his program. Earlier this year people here reported that they were finding that increasing the DI water to grist ratio caused it to predict lower pH. This clearly cannot happen. The author reported that fixed. Another reader here found with it that equivalent amounts of two different basic salts caused it to estimate different pH shifts. Clearly this is wrong. Several people have, as you did, reported pH predictions, especially with dark malts, that are much lower than makes sense. Author's response to this is that he needs to get more reports on dark beer mash pH from his users in order to be able to fix this. All of these solidify the impression that the algorithm is empirical rather than based on the chemistry. The general problem with empirical solutions is that they tend to be valid only under certain conditions - those under which the data underlying them were gathered. When those conditions aren't met, the creator often tries to patch the algorithm to "fix" the problem by "tweaking" it to incorporate the outliers. Often this causes another problem to pop up. I think that's what happening here.

I just started brewing, so I don't have a pH meter to measure pH.
If you take anything away from all this I hope it will be that a pH measurement on a test mash is going to be much more helpful to you in planning your brews than any calculator or spreadsheet.

As you may have gathered I am not very sanguine towards the liklihood of a really useful brewing calculator any time soon. The fundamental problem is that even were a robust calculator prepared there would be no good malt data to put into it. The only way we could ever hope to get good malt data would be if the maltsters would measure it and include it in their malt spec sheets. They aren't about to do that. Even of they did, to make a spreadsheet that uses that data requires understanding of the chemistry. I don't quite know why but this chemistry is very difficult to understand.
 
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Thanks for all the input guys! I guess it's time to invest in a pH meter. These calculators are doing nothing but giving me a huge headache.
 
Thanks for all the input guys! I guess it's time to invest in a pH meter. These calculators are doing nothing but giving me a huge headache.

Since all but one are generally clustered about a single answer, might I ask why you are experiencing a headache over their use?
 
Here's what Gen I calculators have given him:
EZ Water: 5.45
BrunWater: 5.07
MpH: 5.40
Brewer's friend: 5.46

Here's what a Gen II calculator says for three different measured pale ale malts

5.56 (Rahr),
5.56 (Crisp),
5.69(Munton)

Bru'n water is clearly out in left field but even ignoring it I have a headache too.
 
Thanks for all the input guys! I guess it's time to invest in a pH meter. These calculators are doing nothing but giving me a huge headache.
@mopowers unless you have and know how to use a decent pH meter its impossible to compare the predicted mash pH values to the actual mash pH value. Until then there's really no point in giving yourself a headache over any of this. Shown below are the results using ezRecipe v1.24.

ez-1.24.jpg
 
There is no shortcut. To discover the truth, the OP is going to have to get a decent pH meter, learn how to properly calibrate and use it, brew his beer, pull 30 minute and 60 minute mash samples, and assess room temperature pH readings for both.
 
I can't say it's a headache, but perhaps the biggest source of confusion of all is that virtually an entire generation of homebrewers has chosen to place its complete and unwavering faith in the output of the single consistently outlier software package.
 
@mopowers unless you have and know how to use a decent pH meter its impossible to compare the predicted mash pH values to the actual mash pH value. Until then there's really no point in giving yourself a headache over any of this. Shown below are the results using ezRecipe v1.24.

Screwey, was your 5.27 mash pH prediction derived with or without the addition of the 1.5 mL of 88% lactic acid to the mash water?
 
Here's what Gen I calculators have given him:
EZ Water: 5.45
BrunWater: 5.07
MpH: 5.40
Brewer's friend: 5.46

Here's what a Gen II calculator says for three different measured pale ale malts

5.56 (Rahr),
5.56 (Crisp),
5.69(Munton)

Bru'n water is clearly out in left field but even ignoring it I have a headache too.

A.J., what DIpH's did you assign to the Rahr base malt, and also to the 60L Crystal malt, before running this through your software?
 
Yes the 5.27 value is for grain and mineral additions with 1.5 mL 88% lactic acid its 5.08 pH.

I'm not sure if the OP ever clarified the BW 5.07 pH as being with or without the 1.5 mL of lactic acid, but if for BW the 5.07 pH was post this acid addition, then you have matched BW, and it is no longer a lone outlier.
 
I can't say it's a headache, but perhaps the biggest source of confusion of all is that virtually an entire generation of homebrewers has chosen to place its complete and unwavering faith in the output of the single consistently outlier software package.

You need to keep in mind that we’re it not for BW, none of us would be scrutinizing any of this stuff.

Just because we disagree with the results and algorithm doesn’t mean the significance of it is diminished. I cut my teeth in pH estimation with equal parts Brun Water and A.J.’s various calculators and papers.
 
Yesterday I brewed another batch of Honey Amber Ale. ezRecipe predicted a 5.21 mash pH. Below are pictures of the actual pH values taken. A clock or timer would be nice to include next time to show the pH drift upward over 60 minutes.

Amber Ale III pH.jpg


The recipe used 21 pounds Briess Pale US 2-Row and 1 pound of Briess Crystal 90L malt mashed in 12 gallons of treated RO water. Additions were 7g gypsum, 7g calcium chloride, 2g Epsom Salt and 5mL 88% lactic acid. pH samples were taken of wort 30 minutes after the start of mash. Once calibrated the meter remained unmoved in the original wort sample for an hour.
 
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Since all but one are generally clustered about a single answer, might I ask why you are experiencing a headache over their use?

Because what's the point in even having these calculators available if they outputs are all over the map? I can see the usefulness of them for water profile purposes, but to me, the pH approximations should be disregarded.

I'm not sure if the OP ever clarified the BW 5.07 pH as being with or without the 1.5 mL of lactic acid, but if for BW the 5.07 pH was post this acid addition, then you have matched BW, and it is no longer a lone outlier.

The BW pH of 5.07 was with the acid addition, as were all other.

Since I'm new to homebrewing, I'm still accumulating supplies. I just haven't procured a pH meter yet, but will soon, which leads to a couple more question...

Once you start mashing, can you adjust the pH with acid additions? Does it make that much a difference if the mash pH is 5.1 vs 5.6?

Until now, I've run my brew through 4 water calculators and simply split the difference on acid additions and the beer have been great.
 
The mash is effectively over by the time you properly sample, cool, and read a pH, so adjustment on the fly is futile.
 
Yesterday I brewed another batch of Honey Amber Ale. ezRecipe predicted a 5.21 mash pH. Below are pictures of the actual pH values taken. A clock or timer would be nice to include next time to show the pH drift upward over 60 minutes.

The recipe used 21 pounds Briess Pale US 2-Row and 1 pound of Briess Crystal 90L malt mashed in 12 gallons of treated RO water. Additions were 7g gypsum, 7g calcium chloride, 2g Epsom Salt and 5mL 88% lactic acid. pH samples were taken of wort 30 minutes after the start of mash. Once calibrated the meter remained unmoved in the original wort sample for an hour.

If we assume that your actual mash pH was between 5.16 and 5.18, then Mash Made Easy seems to be at least equally in the ballpark here. When I tweak the target pH to bring your 5 mL lactic acid addition into the picture, it brings this recipe to a mash pH of 5.15 in MME. That's somewhere between 0.01 and 0.03 pH points from what you actually measured. It doesn't get much better than this. See MME image below:

Amber Ale.png
 
Here's what Gen I calculators have given him:
EZ Water: 5.45
BrunWater: 5.07
MpH: 5.40
Brewer's friend: 5.46

Here's what a Gen II calculator says for three different measured pale ale malts including the lactic acid (which I missed last time)

5.50 (Rahr),
5.49 (Crisp),
5.63(Munton)

To which we can now add 5.27 from ezRecipe.

Average is 5.41 with a standard deviation of 0.17. Not very confidence inspiring. Taking out the obvious clunker we have an average of 5.46 with standard deviation of 0.11.

Bru'n water is still clearly out in left field (by 3.6 sigmas) but I still have a headache.

Joe Walts measured Rahr Pale ale malt at a pHDI of 5.67 with buffering of -53.63 mEq/kg•pH.
 
Here's what Gen I calculators have given him:
EZ Water: 5.45
BrunWater: 5.07
MpH: 5.40
Brewer's friend: 5.46

Here's what a Gen II calculator says for three different measured pale ale malts including the lactic acid (which I missed last time)

5.50 (Rahr),
5.49 (Crisp),
5.63(Munton)

To which we can now add 5.27 from ezRecipe.

Average is 5.41 with a standard deviation of 0.17. Not very confidence inspiring. Taking out the obvious clunker we have an average of 5.46 with standard deviation of 0.11.

Bru'n water is still clearly out in left field (by 3.6 sigmas) but I still have a headache.

Joe Walts measured Rahr Pale ale malt at a pHDI of 5.67 with buffering of -53.63 mEq/kg•pH.

Just for the sake of clarity, the ezRecipe prediction was for the batch @ScrewyBrewer did, not the OP, and @Silver_Is_Money ran numbers on that batch to compare.

Agreed though, very head split inducing. There are too many spreadsheets doing the same thing differently.
 
Just for the sake of clarity, the ezRecipe prediction was for the batch @ScrewyBrewer did, not the OP, and @Silver_Is_Money ran numbers on that batch to compare.

Agreed though, very head split inducing. There are too many spreadsheets doing the same thing differently.

But there is still only one that stands uniquely alone in attempting to tackle log base 10 pH's via strictly the application of an utterly simple and uniform log base 10 solution. MME is clearly not gen 1 or gen 2 based. Perhaps I should start calling it gen 3.
 
But there is still only one that stands uniquely alone in attempting to tackle log base 10 pH's via strictly the application of an utterly simple and uniform log base 10 solution. MME is clearly not gen 1 or gen 2 based. Perhaps I should start calling it gen 3.

You can call it whatever you want to call it, but perhaps you should re-evaluate throwing stones, especially since we are all perched rather precariously in water and pH estimation glass houses.

Your sheet is firmly planted in the camp using a color based acidity proxy and the much touted “log base 10” solution doesn’t do anything a weighted average of the calculated DI pH values doesn’t already do. So evidently you found a more difficult way of finding a weighted average?

Does that make your sheet any less interesting? I don’t think so, but it sure isn’t groundbreaking or at all special. It is what it is so to speak.

You’ll never have the users Brun Water does (neither will I or anyone else for that matter) and sniping Martin at every chance you get won’t change that.
 
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If we assume that your actual mash pH was between 5.16 and 5.18, then Mash Made Easy seems to be at least equally in the ballpark here. When I tweak the target pH to bring your 5 mL lactic acid addition into the picture, it brings this recipe to a mash pH of 5.15 in MME. That's somewhere between 0.01 and 0.03 pH points from what you actually measured. It doesn't get much better than this. See MME image below:

View attachment 601608
And this is the second time I’ve brewed this recipe and had similar predicted and actual mash pH readings.

ezRecipe - Hazy Daze Dry Irish Stout Recipe

Toss in my Dry Irish Stout recipe that make three out of three recipes where ezRecipe predictions were very very close to actual mash pH.
 
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What is the initial pH with only base malt and salts in each spreadsheet?

What is the magnitude of the effect of the Crystal 60 in each spreadsheet?

What is the magnitude of the effect of the Lactic acid in each spreadsheet?

Just some hypothetical questions.
 

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