Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Halfakneecap]

What do you not like about 34/70?

Can’t really put my finger on it, I just don’t like it.

 

[Yesfan]

Can’t really put my finger on it, I just don’t like it.

Fair enough. I was just curious. A lot of folks don't like K-97, but there's something about it that I do like. It is a slow floculator, but besides that, the last couple of beers I used it on were positive for me.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Fair enough. I was just curious. A lot of folks don't like K-97, but there's something about it that I do like. It is a slow floculator, but besides that, the last couple of beers I used it on were positive for me.

That seems to be one people either really like, or really dont like. How would you describe it? I use WLP029 as my house yeast. Apparently a kolsch yeast but i find it super clean, and use Wyeast 2565 for kolsch. MIght try K-97. What sort of beers do you brew with it?

 

[Yesfan]

Nothing particular. The two times I used it was just because I didn't want to use US-05 for the umpteenth time. The beers were cloudy and took forever to clear. One was just a hoppy pale ale with cascade. The other was a pilsner. I fermented both around 65F. I definitely wasn't going for a kolsch those times.

I should revisit this yeast and refresh my memory.

 

[Shenanigans]

I'm planning on rebrewing a German Bockbier based on the Weyermann Willy Wonka Bock recipe.

https://www.weyermann.de/en-gb/product/weyermann-nr-9-willy-wonka-bock/

Last time I used WLP833 German Bock Lager yeast and it turned out great eventhough beers with 25% caramel malt are not usually my thing.
Unfortunately the WLP833 I had stored in the fridge got infected so this time I'm going to use Diamond lager which (I think) should attenuate a little better.
It won't be a true warm fermented lager as I plan on pitching it at around 12oC and leave it for about 5 days before turning off the fridge and let it warm slowly to the ambient temperaure of about 18oC in my basement to finish it off and package it on day 13 or 14.

Brew day will probably be late Jan or early Feb so I'll report back in a few months

Recipe is below

 

[HM-2]

CaraRed is barely a Caramel/Crystal malt which is probably why you found it enjoyable at 25% versus normal Crystal. I think of it as "supercharged Munich II".

 

[dmtaylor]

What's with all the hop additions?!
What's with the fermenting it cold?!

Nevermind. Enjoy.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Shhhh... hea ist makkking schlurple

 

[Shenanigans]

CaraRed is barely a Caramel/Crystal malt which is probably why you found it enjoyable at 25% versus normal Crystal. I think of it as "supercharged Munich II".

Yeah can be plus the 45 IBUs help to balance out the sweetness.

 

[Shenanigans]

What's with all the hop additions?!
What's with the fermenting it cold?!

Nevermind. Enjoy.

Well it will be partially warm fermented as it shouldn't be finished after 5 days at 54F.
Following some of the fast lager methods that became popular a few years ago.
Only 3 hop additions the tradition will be added the same time as the MF - the 25g of a pack I want to use it up.

 

[hilljack13]

I am thinking of trying another round of warm ferments. I just cannot seem to get any good results when cold fermenting. I have been trying to find a good lager I like, and all but one was a complete disaster. I have three 1 gal batches going now that were brewed 26 Oct 2024. Fermented @52F for 10 days, rest @65F for 7 days. I have tried shorter with no luck. Then cold crashed/lagered from 16 Nov - about a week ago. I tasted two of them, not good. Still have a funky taste that might be diacetyl. The one I did that was good (decent) sat out at room temp 4 months after a 30 day cold crash. I am not quite that far along with these, but seriously I didn't think 99% of everything I tried was going to be this awful.

I am using 34/70 and really about to dump it. I have S189 and S23 in hand to try.

Here is an example of one of the three. Only difference is the grain bill, but all ratios were 90/10.

Brewfather recipe

 

[HM-2]

Rather than chucking, you could throw some Brett in and keep it in secondary for a few months. That'll solve your diac problem, plus bretted pils are awesome.

 

[mashdar]

With 10 days at 65F, diacetyl should not be a problem.

Are you adding enough yeast? 1 gallon at that gravity and 52F would need ~1/2 a pack.

Other possible culprits:
- O2 sucked in during crash
- infection (you said funk)
- light exposure? (you said funk)

Re light, a pale beer can skunk extremely fast in direct sunlight, and indirect sunlight will easily get it in 10 days.

 

[rtstrider]

I am thinking of trying another round of warm ferments. I just cannot seem to get any good results when cold fermenting. I have been trying to find a good lager I like, and all but one was a complete disaster. I have three 1 gal batches going now that were brewed 26 Oct 2024. Fermented @52F for 10 days, rest @65F for 7 days. I have tried shorter with no luck. Then cold crashed/lagered from 16 Nov - about a week ago. I tasted two of them, not good. Still have a funky taste that might be diacetyl. The one I did that was good (decent) sat out at room temp 4 months after a 30 day cold crash. I am not quite that far along with these, but seriously I didn't think 99% of everything I tried was going to be this awful.

I am using 34/70 and really about to dump it. I have S189 and S23 in hand to try.

Here is an example of one of the three. Only difference is the grain bill, but all ratios were 90/10.

Brewfather recipe

I've had some issues cold fermenting lagers. What I've learned is pitch rate absolutely matters! So what I do is ferment in the upper 50s F the initial pitch. I'll brew something low 1.040s og since this is mainly a yeast propagation batch. Once that's done the beer gets packaged. The next lager gets racked directly on to the yeast cake and gets cold fermented. That's really made a difference here at least

 

[Halfakneecap]

I am thinking of trying another round of warm ferments. I just cannot seem to get any good results when cold fermenting. I have been trying to find a good lager I like, and all but one was a complete disaster. I have three 1 gal batches going now that were brewed 26 Oct 2024. Fermented @52F for 10 days, rest @65F for 7 days. I have tried shorter with no luck. Then cold crashed/lagered from 16 Nov - about a week ago. I tasted two of them, not good. Still have a funky taste that might be diacetyl. The one I did that was good (decent) sat out at room temp 4 months after a 30 day cold crash. I am not quite that far along with these, but seriously I didn't think 99% of everything I tried was going to be this awful.

I am using 34/70 and really about to dump it. I have S189 and S23 in hand to try.

Here is an example of one of the three. Only difference is the grain bill, but all ratios were 90/10.

Brewfather recipe

Ive never liked 34/70. I much prefer S189 and S23. S23 gets bad press, but its a great lager yeast. I dont experience fruity flavours, just nice mild esters. I ferment at 15c.

S189 is clean as a whistle, and also great at 15c, though many people claim its very clean up to 18c

 

[Dog House Brew]

I can’t do the 34/70, I just don’t like it. Works great but that flavor isn’t me. S-23 and S189 are fantastic.

 

[ncbrewer]

I might as well pile on. I brewed two 34/70 batches. I was ok with it, but I prefer S-189 and Diamond. But I've read lots of posts from brewers that really like 34/70.

 

[hilljack13]

Appreciate all the replies. I'm planning on doing a 3 gal batch and splitting between all three yeasts in my LBMB's. Probably just a Pilsner SMASH to see if can actually get a good starting point with one.

 

[hilljack13]

With 10 days at 65F, diacetyl should not be a problem.

Are you adding enough yeast? 1 gallon at that gravity and 52F would need ~1/2 a pack.

Other possible culprits:
- O2 sucked in during crash
- infection (you said funk)
- light exposure? (you said funk)

Re light, a pale beer can skunk extremely fast in direct sunlight, and indirect sunlight will easily get it in 10 days.

I add 4.6g yeast for the 1.15g in the FV. Goes straight to the refrigerator so light isn't an issue. I use 4.6g based off two normal sachets in a 5gal batch. At 11.5 per = 23g = 23/5 = 4.6. They all finish right at or within a point or two of expected FG so I have always assumed this "math" was good.

O2 might be a problem. I use the plastic LBMB and I can't guarantee a perfect seal, but every time? I have never had an issue with any ale.

Rather than chucking, you could throw some Brett in and keep it in secondary for a few months. That'll solve your diac problem, plus bretted pils are awesome.

Never heard of this. Google inbound...

Side bar...HM-2 as in a Navy HM2?

 

[mashdar]

S-23 has given me distinct plum notes every time I try it. I imagine not everyone can taste whatever it is. edit: or taste it differently. It took me ages to find out what I taste as strange grapey flavor many experience as corn chips flavor.

W-34/70 and S-189 are extremely similar final products in my experience, but W-34/70 is better behaved. Faster fermentation, faster clearing, more sturdy flocs, etc. I've never done a split batch, though.

But I pitch at ~46F and ferment 48-50F for the first couple days at least, so my opinion isn't worth much in the warm ferment thread.

 

[bloombrews]

I finally got my hands on a package of Saflager E-30 and i tried it out. Same setup and process as in previous tests. Fermentation completed in six days, finished at 3'P. The yeast clears out at average speed but its powdery and doesn't wholly stick in to the bottles, equal to W34/70.

I just brewed a Helles with E-30 and the Attenuation is shocking! Went from 1.046 and after 6 days at 56F, it is down to 1.005 (finish hydrometer). It is still blowing off slowly! I did slowly warm up to 62 day 5 and day 6.
I used Fermentrack temperature control (here on HBT), for precise control.
I never seen a Lager yeast so low on the EG, like a saison yeast will do!
Waiting now to Lager the beer and then a slow cold "crash" to 33F around day 21. The verdict seems to be out that a fast cold crash is not good for head retention on finished beer.

 

[hilljack13]

But I pitch at ~46F and ferment 48-50F for the first couple days at least, so my opinion isn't worth much in the warm ferment thread.

I'm going over Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer and this is what he recommends. I wasn't doing that. I also see that my off flavors could be caused by under pitching or low oxygenation. He recommends up to 21g dry yeast if OG is over 1.060. Mine were 1.058 and 1.061 so maybe my 4.6g isn't enough, even though I still hit FG b/w 1.012-1.013.

I'm thinking it's the O2. These are 1g batches and the only way I have tried to get any O2 in was during cooling and I strain into the FV. Some bubbles show up but I am not shaking or doing anything else. Probably doing one more run trying this before I go full blown warm ferment.

 

[Willy]

I haven't had any troubles with W-34/70 as long as I am patient. Lagers are supposed to lager after the fermentation and D rest period. It takes time to clean it up and let the particles sink.

I also found NovaLager to be really nice and a more forgiving lager yeast. Give NovaLager a try - I bet you like and it solves some of your current issues.

 

[sweetcell]

in case anyone is tallying: 34/70 is my go-to, although this spring i might branch out and try something new - possibly Diamond or NovaLager, tbd.

a few years ago, as part of a split-batch experiment i tried S-23 and it was way too ester-y for me. if i brewed lagers more often i'd consider giving it a second chance, but since lagers are a once-a-year thing for me i'm not going to risk another fruit-bomb (unless i use mandarina bavaria )

 

[Halfakneecap]

I don't get the fruit bomb with S-23 at all. Yes, esters, but to me they're mild and pleasant. I ferment at 15c.

 

[rtstrider]

in case anyone is tallying: 34/70 is my go-to, although this spring i might branch out and try something new - possibly Diamond or NovaLager, tbd.

a few years ago, as part of a split-batch experiment i tried S-23 and it was way too ester-y for me. if i brewed lagers more often i'd consider giving it a second chance, but since lagers are a once-a-year thing for me i'm not going to risk another fruit-bomb (unless i use mandarina bavaria )

The fruitiest lager strain I've come across is wlp850/wyeast 2042. It screams Heineken to me. Full of esters. With that said I had very poor results with Novalager. To be fair I only used it once and it was kolsch city. I'm going to circle back to that strain and try pitching heavy to see if that helps. Definitely on the to do list!

 

[Halfakneecap]

The fruitiest lager strain I've come across is wlp850/wyeast 2042. It screams Heineken to me. Full of esters. With that said I had very poor results with Novalager. To be fair I only used it once and it was kolsch city. I'm going to circle back to that strain and try pitching heavy to see if that helps. Definitely on the to do list!

What !? i really love that yeast and find it crisp and clean. I do find it has a mild ester, but again, i like it and find it pleasant. Tastebuds aren't all the same i guess! Clearly i like estery yeast strains !

I ferment 2042 very cold though.

 

[HM-2]

NovaLager under pressure is my go to strain for warm fermented lagers. I find it a bit of a slow starter but once it's going it rips through stuff pretty rapidly and then drops crystal clear in no time.

It made my best beer last year, a 7.4% imperial rice lager with Tango hops and Yuzu peel. I've also had good success with it in helles bock/maibock. IME it throws a bit less sulphur and cleans up a fair bit quicker than most of the German lager strains I've used.

 

[crazyjake19]

I can’t do the 34/70, I just don’t like it. Works great but that flavor isn’t me. S-23 and S189 are fantastic.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. The two worst lagers I ever brewed were with 34/70. I know it's the most popular lager strain and people love it, but I'm not willing to risk the money (and beer) to give it a third chance. Same recipes I've brewed with 2124 and 2278, so I know it's not a recipe issue. Maybe I got two bad packs of 34/70 from two separate orders, who knows.

 

[mashdar]

The two worst lagers I ever brewed were with 34/70.

Worst how, if you don't mind my asking?