Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[seatazzz]

This morning tested the WF lager I fermented under pressure in a keg. Brewed it on Sunday; today, Wednesday, it's down to 1.009 and tastes great, just a slight tang from the yeast still in suspension. No sulfur, no fruitiness, just gonna be a good beer. Started it crashing and will transfer to a serving keg tomorrow night. Should be mostly carbonated (poured a ton of foam for the tester) so just a couple days on serving pressure should see it ready. Very pleased with this little experiment.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

This is on my next to brew list, I have a basic American lager recipe I'm going to brew for an upcoming event and don't have time to lager properly. So it's a 15 gallon batch, gonna use 34/70 I'm debating if I should ferment under pressure, I max out at 15psi in my fermenter. I can run at any temp. This being my first go at it I'm curious what the differences are between fermenting at 60f with no pressure vs 68f under pressure.. seems I've read good results from both, if no pressure I assume a diacetyl rest around 64f? I have a little over a month from brew day which will be this Saturday. If it makes any difference I also plan to use gelatin fining before kegging. Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[Miraculix]

This is on my next to brew list, I have a basic American lager recipe I'm going to brew for an upcoming event and don't have time to lager properly. So it's a 15 gallon batch, gonna use 34/70 I'm debating if I should ferment under pressure, I max out at 15psi in my fermenter. I can run at any temp. This being my first go at it I'm curious what the differences are between fermenting at 60f with no pressure vs 68f under pressure.. seems I've read good results from both, if no pressure I assume a diacetyl rest around 64f? I have a little over a month from brew day which will be this Saturday. If it makes any difference I also plan to use gelatin fining before kegging. Any suggestions appreciated.

Higher temperature should be quicker and with pressure it should be cleaner. So I'd go with combining both.

 

[SacSudz]

I'm going to be brewing a lager using SafLager W-34/70. My fermintation at room temperature is about 72 degrees.

What I do is place it in a shower stall in our house that isn't used. It's my most stable temperature location. What I'd like to do is put a reusable ice block on the floor with a fan blowing over it in the shower stall. I could replace the ice block a couple times a day to keep it cool. I think by doing this I can keep it within the ideal temperature range.

My question is this though, I can certainly do this for 4-5 days durning active fermentation. But once that is completed what are your thoughts on stopping the ice blocks and letting the temp warm back up to 72? Is it likely I could still get off flavors after active fermentation is completed by letting it finish off at a higher temp?

 

[balrog]

I believe temp control really only matters during lag (multiplication) phase and active fermentation phase, after 3-4 days you can let it do whatever. After I see the exothermic part of the fermentation I typically ramp up temp to discourage floccing, or let it go ambient.

 

[sweetcell]

But once that is completed what are your thoughts on stopping the ice blocks and letting the temp warm back up to 72? Is it likely I could still get off flavors after active fermentation is completed by letting it finish off at a higher temp?

yup, i'd be comfortable with that - good plan IMO.

i'm not sure how much cooling you'll get from blowing air over an ice pack and on to your fermentor - seems very inefficient, most of the cooling would be lost to the environment. depending on the type of fermentor you use, i'm a fan of the cold bath method: put the vessel in a tub/big pot/trash can/etc, put some water so that it goes part way up the fermentor, and add ice/ice packs/soda bottles with frozen water/etc. to the water bath. ice cools the water, which in turn cools the fermentor. for further cooling, put a t-shirt or towel over the fermentor to wick up the water and blow a fan over that.

 

[SacSudz]

Great idea! I definitely put a wet towel over it too.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I did my first WF lager and BIAB batch on 5/3. I brewed a 20g batch and split it with 3 yeasts. S-23, S-189, and 34/70. Fermentation started at 63 and left outside in 40 ambient. Moved it to a stairwell in another house with no heat. Fermentation slowly made it to 68 after 3 days and stayed there. I was surprised tonight to see both batches were at 1.008, OG 1.050. The S-23 is a bit too fruity and has a slick full mouthfeel. I doubt I’ll use that yeast again. The 189 and 34/70 are both fantastic. I’m sure with a month of cold conditioning they will be great. I’d say I’m liking the 189 slightly more than the 34/70. Wort was super cloudy, but cleared nicely after fermentation. I was really surprised at the clarity. 23 didn’t clear as much, maybe it will after conditioning. I can see me doing another WF again in the future. Plus BIAB cut 2.5hrs off my normal brew day.

 

[ba-brewer]

I did my first WF lager and BIAB batch on 5/3. I brewed a 20g batch and split it with 3 yeasts. S-33, S-189, and 34/70. Fermentation started at 63 and left outside in 40 ambient. Moved it to a stairwell in another house with no heat. Fermentation slowly made it to 68 after 3 days and stayed there. I was surprised tonight to see both batches were at 1.008, OG 1.050. The S-33 is a bit too fruity and has a slick full mouthfeel. I doubt I’ll use that yeast again. The 189 and 34/70 are both fantastic. I’m sure with a month of cold conditioning they will be great. I’d say I’m liking the 189 slightly more than the 34/70. Wort was super cloudy, but cleared nicely after fermentation. I was really surprised at the clarity. 33 didn’t clear as much, maybe it will after conditioning. I can see me doing another WF again in the future. Plus BIAB cut 2.5hrs off my normal brew day.

Did you really use s-33 or did you mean S-23?

 

[Dog House Brew]

Good catch, S-23 was what I used. Post has been edited, thanks.

 

[sweetcell]

The S-23 is a bit too fruity and has a slick full mouthfeel. I doubt I’ll use that yeast again.

when i compared 3 yeasts for WF, i also concluded that S-23 was my least favorite. it improved greatly after 6 months of cold lagering but who wants to wait that long when other yeasts are tasty much sooner?

 

[balrog]

Did you really use s-33 or did you mean S-23?

 

[SacSudz]

So my fan, ice blocks and wet towel was a bust. But I was able to improvise by using a portable air conditioning unit. This has been keeping my beer at a steady 64 degrees.

 

[seatazzz]

For those who are dipping their toes into pressure fermenting lagers, I gotta say that Saflager 34/70 is the BOMB. Yes, this is the WF lager thread, but pressure-fermented lagers can be done warm, so I'm adding it here. I brewed one last weekend that was fermented at 15psi the entire run; did a starter with dry 34/70 (yes I know I don't have to but I was overthinking it). Absolute cleanest, crispest WF lager I've done, and I've been doing it for a few years now. For those who care, it was fermented in a keg with a clipped diptube at about 68°. Oh yeah; I brewed this on 5/13. It is now 5/21 and it's been on tap for two days. Does it taste 'young'? Nope. Esters? Nope. Sulfur? NOPE. Just a nice crisp lawnmower beer, apt because I just mowed my mom's yard. And it will only get better.

 

[duelerx]

Just recently read a blog post from White Labs worth to read, White Labs R&D team did their own research to validate data from some of the large scale studies. TLDR:

Matched with previous genome sequencing projects
Hybrids
WLP051 California V Ale Yeast
WLP515 Antwerp Ale Yeast

S. cerevisiae
WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast

Different from sequencing projects

WLP029 German/Kölsch Ale Yeast - Hybrid to S. cerevisiae
WLP838 Southern German Lager Yeast - S. cerevisiae to Hybrid

The same culture was plated in independent plates and each plate was incubated at a different temperature:

30C

• All strains presented strong growth at 30 °C, the control condition, indicating that all the cultures were healthy and that similar amounts of yeast were inoculated in each spot.

37C

• All strains classified as S. cerevisiae in our PCR analysis (WLP029 and WLP800) presented growth at 37 °C.
• All strains classified as S. pastorianus in our PCR analysis (WLP802, WLP820, WLP830, WLP833, WLP838, WLP840, and WLP860) were not able to grow at 37 °C.
  • Some residual growth was observed for WLP051, WLP515, and WLP810
  • No growth was observed for WLP838 at 37°C, verifying our PCR results that this strain is a hybrid and not an ale strain as reported by previous studies.

Source: Identifying Lager vs Ale Strains

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

thanks, I've never gone above 23c so looks like I'm safe

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just recently read a blog post from White Labs worth to read, White Labs R&D team did their own research to validate data from some of the large scale studies. TLDR:

I don't have much experience brewing lagers myself, but it sure seems odd that a yeast given the name "WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast" (the two terms that most people use to describe "lager" beers) is actually an ale strain!

The PCR chart seems to show "WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager Yeast" as S. cerevisiae, but it is not called out. Mistake in the chart?

 

[Chetbrews]

For those who are dipping their toes into pressure fermenting lagers, I gotta say that Saflager 34/70 is the BOMB. Yes, this is the WF lager thread, but pressure-fermented lagers can be done warm, so I'm adding it here. I brewed one last weekend that was fermented at 15psi the entire run; did a starter with dry 34/70 (yes I know I don't have to but I was overthinking it). Absolute cleanest, crispest WF lager I've done, and I've been doing it for a few years now. For those who care, it was fermented in a keg with a clipped diptube at about 68°. Oh yeah; I brewed this on 5/13. It is now 5/21 and it's been on tap for two days. Does it taste 'young'? Nope. Esters? Nope. Sulfur? NOPE. Just a nice crisp lawnmower beer, apt because I just mowed my mom's yard. And it will only get better.

What temp did you ferment at for this batch?

 

[dmtaylor]

The PCR chart seems to show "WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager Yeast" as S. cerevisiae, but it is not called out. Mistake in the chart?

I noticed the same thing. Unlike some of the other strains, this tidbit was NOT confirmed by the second phase testing. So I guess they shrugged it off as unconfirmed. Still there should be some additional followup testing for this in future to figure out who's right and who's wrong. There has got to be one correct answer.

 

[beervoid]

For those who are dipping their toes into pressure fermenting lagers, I gotta say that Saflager 34/70 is the BOMB. Yes, this is the WF lager thread, but pressure-fermented lagers can be done warm, so I'm adding it here. I brewed one last weekend that was fermented at 15psi the entire run; did a starter with dry 34/70 (yes I know I don't have to but I was overthinking it). Absolute cleanest, crispest WF lager I've done, and I've been doing it for a few years now. For those who care, it was fermented in a keg with a clipped diptube at about 68°. Oh yeah; I brewed this on 5/13. It is now 5/21 and it's been on tap for two days. Does it taste 'young'? Nope. Esters? Nope. Sulfur? NOPE. Just a nice crisp lawnmower beer, apt because I just mowed my mom's yard. And it will only get better.

How did you make it clear?

 

[Miraculix]

I don't have much experience brewing lagers myself, but it sure seems odd that a yeast given the name "WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast" (the two terms that most people use to describe "lager" beers) is actually an ale strain!

The PCR chart seems to show "WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager Yeast" as S. cerevisiae, but it is not called out. Mistake in the chart?

It's long known that wlp 800 is actually more of an ale strain from a genetic point of view. It's supposed to be the pilsner urquell strain and it is a marvellously well warm fermenting "lager" strain.

The real group of "Lager"yeast does not really exist genetically, if you ask me. Many fancy genetic ideas but at the end it's the taste of the beer that makes it a lager. And this taste can be realised and has been realised historically through multiple yeast variants.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Good spot, thanks.

• Some residual growth was observed for WLP051, WLP515, and WLP810

Suggests these might be good ones to look at if you're wanting that pastorianus taste when brewing at room temperatures.

• No growth was observed for WLP838 at 37°C, verifying our PCR results that this strain is a hybrid and not an ale strain as reported by previous studies.

When we talked about the original paper that sequenced a lot of these things back in 2019, my comment was "Before we get too carried away with idea that WLP838 is an ale and Wyeast 1187 is a lager, we should perhaps also consider the idea that they've just got mixed up. It certainly happened in a couple of cases with the 1002 genomes from Strasbourg, it's tough managing this number of samples and mixups do happen. Remember this is provisional data at this stage."

838 never quite felt right as a cerevisiae.

It's long known that wlp 800 is actually more of an ale strain from a genetic point of view. It's supposed to be the pilsner urquell strain and it is a marvellously well warm fermenting "lager" strain.

It's supposed to come from Urquell. Which would suggest it's one of the five separate yeasts that they used to ferment with. It's quite plausible that they were using 1 cerevisiae and 4 pastorianus. Traditional breweries seldom use 1 strain, so people should get away from thinking that a particular homebrew strain is *the* [Brewery X] strain, these things are team players.

The real group of "Lager"yeast does not really exist genetically, if you ask me. Many fancy genetic ideas but at the end it's the taste of the beer that makes it a lager. And this taste can be realised and has been realised historically through multiple yeast variants.

Well pastorianus is clearly a well defined group, but I'd agree if what you're trying to say is that people worry far too much about the definition of "lager" as a beer - according to the Gallone paper people are making beer sold as "lager" commercially with yeast from the saison family...

 

[seatazzz]

How did you make it clear?

I use gelatin at kegging to clear the beer. This one didn't quite get clear (it didn't last long enough, for one thing) until about 4 days in. Thinking I could have cold crashed it an extra day. Doing that with the one I brewed next, will get transferred to the serving keg tonight.

 

[seatazzz]

What temp did you ferment at for this batch?

68°, then cranked it up to 70 for a day before crashing.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Does anybody have much experience fermenting WLP051 "California V Ale Yeast" at lager temps or using it to make warm fermented "lagers"?

A few years ago I was doing more harvesting and pitching yeast. I used WLP051 over many months and probably brewed 5-8 batches of various IPA and Pale Ale fermented in the 66F range. Overall I thought it was a decent yeast that made a nice drinkable and clean ale. In a split vs WLP001, I liked WLP001 a little better so I switched back to that strain (though in a few triangle tests, I could not pick out 001 vs 051).

I have been curious about trying out that yeast in a style like a Cold IPA or West Coast Pilsner...but W-34/70 at 62F works so well for that type of beer I don't have much motivation to try out WLP051 again.

 

[Miraculix]

Good spot, thanks.

Suggests these might be good ones to look at if you're wanting that pastorianus taste when brewing at room temperatures.

When we talked about the original paper that sequenced a lot of these things back in 2019, my comment was "Before we get too carried away with idea that WLP838 is an ale and Wyeast 1187 is a lager, we should perhaps also consider the idea that they've just got mixed up. It certainly happened in a couple of cases with the 1002 genomes from Strasbourg, it's tough managing this number of samples and mixups do happen. Remember this is provisional data at this stage."

838 never quite felt right as a cerevisiae.


It's supposed to come from Urquell. Which would suggest it's one of the five separate yeasts that they used to ferment with. It's quite plausible that they were using 1 cerevisiae and 4 pastorianus. Traditional breweries seldom use 1 strain, so people should get away from thinking that a particular homebrew strain is *the* [Brewery X] strain, these things are team players.


Well pastorianus is clearly a well defined group, but I'd agree if what you're trying to say is that people worry far too much about the definition of "lager" as a beer - according to the Gallone paper people are making beer sold as "lager" commercially with yeast from the saison family...

Yes postarianus is well defined. But there are yeasts outside this group that are capable of making very good traditional lagers so postarianus does not equal lager yeast which means that there is not such thing as a clearly genetically defined group of lager yeasts.

 

[duelerx]

Good spot, thanks.

Suggests these might be good ones to look at if you're wanting that pastorianus taste when brewing at room temperatures.

When we talked about the original paper that sequenced a lot of these things back in 2019, my comment was "Before we get too carried away with idea that WLP838 is an ale and Wyeast 1187 is a lager, we should perhaps also consider the idea that they've just got mixed up. It certainly happened in a couple of cases with the 1002 genomes from Strasbourg, it's tough managing this number of samples and mixups do happen. Remember this is provisional data at this stage."

838 never quite felt right as a cerevisiae.


It's supposed to come from Urquell. Which would suggest it's one of the five separate yeasts that they used to ferment with. It's quite plausible that they were using 1 cerevisiae and 4 pastorianus. Traditional breweries seldom use 1 strain, so people should get away from thinking that a particular homebrew strain is *the* [Brewery X] strain, these things are team players.


Well pastorianus is clearly a well defined group, but I'd agree if what you're trying to say is that people worry far too much about the definition of "lager" as a beer - according to the Gallone paper people are making beer sold as "lager" commercially with yeast from the saison family...

Which one is the yeast from Saison family?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Which one is the yeast from Saison family?

We don't know. Not a "homebrew" strain. The 2016 Gallone et al paper tested 40+ strains from commercial breweries as well as most of the White Labs strains, and all we know about the commercial ones is the very briefest description, and what group they ended up in. Strains Beer039 and Beer040 are both Beer2 (ie saison family) strains, used for "Beer (Lager)" in Czechia and the US respectively. It's worth noting that not all Beer2 strains are phenolic though.

 

[fluketamer]

grain to glass in 17 days. warm fermented lager lallemand lager yeast 10 days at 66 let it warm up to 70 on day 10 kegged day 14 tapped at day 17. its delish. it will clear in a week or two.

 

[Wortchester]

I went and made a batch of WL with Novalager yeast. Process remained the same, only OG was 12'P this time around. Fermentation started without surprises. It got lazy near the end and ended on day 9 at 3'P. I think this pack of yeast woke up a bit grumpy. Fresh crisp mouthfeel, some sulphur, and there is a bit of warm apple in the aftertaste. Doesn't have the snap of a more traditional yeast, but it identifies as a lager. It cleared up surprisingly quickly and has an average stick on the bottles. My impression of it right now is that of a slightly more mellow W34/70. Based on sample size of one, i'd call this the best dry yeast for a lawnmower beer.