Nice! I cannot recall, have you made you calculator available?
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Nice! I cannot recall, have you made you calculator available?
This was a tricky one for the calculators. Nobody got it right. Bill was 90% base malt and 10% flaked wheat.
9.158 kg Pilsner Malt (Avangard) (1.7 SRM) 70%
2.616 kg Pale Ale (Dingemans) (3.3 SRM) 20%
1.308 kg Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) 10%
Strike volume 38L
Sparge volume 50L
Base water (these are annual averages for 2018 for my location from water authority website)
Ca2+ 6.9
Mg2+ 1.14
Na+ 4.8
K+ 0.43
SO2- 0
Cl- 6.3
Alkalinity as CaCO3 25.08 (converted from Total Alkalinity)
NO3- 0.72
Salts added to mash water:
Gypsum 5 grams
Calcium Chloride 7 grams
Epsom 4 grams
NaCl 4 grams
Lactic Acid
Mash 9.5 mL
Sparge 1.5 mL
Tried multiple water calculators aiming for 5.4 mash, calculating for pH lactic acid requirements
Bru'n Water 2.5 mL
Brewers Friend 9 mL
Beersmith 10 mL
Water Engine 15 mL
I went with 9.5 mL based on the range
pH measurements - Apera meter, calibrated before brewing
10 min 5.08 at 17.1C
20 min 5.19 at 17.4C
30 min 5.22 at 18.4C and 15.4 Brix 1.061
75 min 5.26 at 17.2C and 19.0 Brix 1.076
For a rebrew I guess I'd go with 6mL lactic on this recipe
Final runnings pH 5.5
Kettle ph 5.35 at 18.1C and 10.1 Brix
Added 3mL lactic and brought kettle pH to 5.18
9.158 kg Pilsner Malt (Avangard) (1.7 SRM) 70%
2.616 kg Pale Ale (Dingemans) (3.3 SRM) 20%
1.308 kg Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) 10%
Strike volume 38L
Sparge volume 50L
Base water (these are annual averages for 2018 for my location from water authority website)
Ca2+ 6.9
Mg2+ 1.14
Na+ 4.8
K+ 0.43
SO2- 0
Cl- 6.3
Alkalinity as CaCO3 25.08 (converted from Total Alkalinity)
NO3- 0.72
Salts added to mash water:
Gypsum 5 grams
Calcium Chloride 7 grams
Epsom 4 grams
NaCl 4 grams
Lactic Acid
Mash 9.5 mL
Sparge 1.5 mL
Tried multiple water calculators aiming for 5.4 mash, calculating for pH lactic acid requirements
Bru'n Water 2.5 mL
Brewers Friend 9 mL
Beersmith 10 mL
Water Engine 15 mL
I went with 9.5 mL based on the range
pH measurements - Apera meter, calibrated before brewing
10 min 5.08 at 17.1C
20 min 5.19 at 17.4C
30 min 5.22 at 18.4C and 15.4 Brix 1.061
75 min 5.26 at 17.2C and 19.0 Brix 1.076
For a rebrew I guess I'd go with 6mL lactic on this recipe
Final runnings pH 5.5
Kettle ph 5.35 at 18.1C and 10.1 Brix
Added 3mL lactic and brought kettle pH to 5.18
Big Monk
Trappist Please! 🍷
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2015
- Messages
- 2,192
- Reaction score
- 1,151
I’ve got a few revisions to do on Monday. I’m going to cross check the background functions against A.J.’s latest release. Something seems fishy about that acid amount.
EDIT: I double checked and the calcs are correct. That is a considerable amount of grain that’s more basic than most. Still doesn’t explain the discrepancy but the amount seems less fishy now considering 13 ish kg of grain.
Last edited:
Big Monk
Trappist Please! 🍷
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2015
- Messages
- 2,192
- Reaction score
- 1,151
What is the pH of the source water?
7.1 on water report 6.9 tested in the kettle before I added the salts
You don't need a calculator, Gen I or Gen II, to know that 5.2 is not likely the pH of this mash. You've got 12.25 kg of malts in there none of which is at all acidic. The malts specified typically have a DI mash pH of 5.65 or so and buffering of around -40 mEq/kg•pH. Thus getting to pH 5.2 would require about 40*12.25*(5.65 - 5.4) = 220 mEq protons. There is also 38 L of water with alkalinity reported as "Alkalinity as CaCO3 25.08 (converted from Total Alkalinity)". Given that total alkalinity is alkalinity (there is no conversion involved) there is some question as to what the actual alkalinity is but taking him at his word that the alkalinity is 0.5 mEq/L there's an additional deficit of 0.9*.5*38 = 17 mEq. Protons needed to get to 5.2 is thus going to be around 240. What do we have to provide those protons in this mash? Nothing by 9.5 mL of lactic acid which, at pH 5.2 is 11.3 N and thus provides 108 mEq = less that half of what is needed. Unless 1.3 kg of flaked wheat is really acidic and can supply about 130 mEq of acid 5.2 is a very unlikely pH for this mash.
So, no wonder the other calculators "got it wrong". They all estimate the properties of malts one way or another and with varying degrees of accuracy but their estimates are all derived from observations of normal malts - the malts home brewers actually use in brewing. Based on typical grains the pH of this mash (with 9.5 mL lactic acid) is likely to be between 5.4 and 5.5 depending on the actual properties of the grains. Thus you might need a bit more than 9.5 mL lactic acid, again depending on actual grain properties.
In cases like this I always look first at the pH measurements. When brewing if ever I see a pH reading off by as much as 0.2 or more from what common sense tells me to expect the first thing I do is rinse the probe and put it back into 4 buffer. If it passes that check then it is back to trying to figure out what is wrong with the mash. Did I add 19 mL of acid instead of 9 etc.
Was the meter recently calibrated following the manufacturer's instruction or those in the Sticky? Has it had a fairly recent stability check? Is the junction clogged or is the bulb dirty?...
PS: source water pH has, except in cases of unusually high or low value, very little to do with mash pH. A good calculator will, of course, take it into account but it isn't going to explain a discrepancy of this magnitude.
So, no wonder the other calculators "got it wrong". They all estimate the properties of malts one way or another and with varying degrees of accuracy but their estimates are all derived from observations of normal malts - the malts home brewers actually use in brewing. Based on typical grains the pH of this mash (with 9.5 mL lactic acid) is likely to be between 5.4 and 5.5 depending on the actual properties of the grains. Thus you might need a bit more than 9.5 mL lactic acid, again depending on actual grain properties.
In cases like this I always look first at the pH measurements. When brewing if ever I see a pH reading off by as much as 0.2 or more from what common sense tells me to expect the first thing I do is rinse the probe and put it back into 4 buffer. If it passes that check then it is back to trying to figure out what is wrong with the mash. Did I add 19 mL of acid instead of 9 etc.
Was the meter recently calibrated following the manufacturer's instruction or those in the Sticky? Has it had a fairly recent stability check? Is the junction clogged or is the bulb dirty?...
PS: source water pH has, except in cases of unusually high or low value, very little to do with mash pH. A good calculator will, of course, take it into account but it isn't going to explain a discrepancy of this magnitude.
This is an excellent thread, thanks to everyone participating
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I quickly passed this recipes source water (volume and mineralization), the added mineralization, and the grist through Mash Made Easy 5.30 late last night, and (depending upon a few minor variable assumption variations) I was generally seeing an overall need for approximately 11.5 to 12.5 mL of 88% Lactic Acid when a target mash pH of 5.4 was selected.
I suspect I am describing the alkalinity entry wrong but pretty sure I am using the calculator correctly. My water report says Alkalinity, Total mg/mL 25.1. In Bru'n Water I enter this value into cell A28 and calculate Bicarbonate concentration in PPM which gets entered into cell C6. In Derek'w Water Engine I entered 25.1 into Alkalinity as CaCO3. In both cases I got a good match in the anion to cation ratio and the numbers were about the same 0.66 cations vs 0.69 anions.
Doesn't this analysis leave out the brewing salts? I'm using tap water with added gypsum and calcium chloride. I know these have impact on pH. My mash water was over 100 ppm Calcium.
With 9.5 mg lactic acid the calculators estimated my mash pH would be:
Bru'n Water 5.04
Brewers Friend 5.39
Beersmith 5.42
Water Engine 5.538
And my measured pH at 30 minutes was 5.22
No way on over dosing acid. I did just run out to the garage and recheck my probe calibration. Full disclosure I did a bad thing and left my probe in a wort sample overnight. I think it must of been the kettle sample. Anyway after a rinse and checking against the pH 4 buffer I got 4.05 at 10C. Cleaned and back into proper storage solution now. Anyway it was probably within 0.02 yesterday during the brew.
Yes new meter calibrated when first bought and ran successful 24 hour stability test as per the sticky about 3 weeks ago. Stored in storage solution since then and did not dry out. Meter calibrated in morning before brew started. Not dirty this was first use of the meter in wort.
I do have an engineering background and am pretty careful measuring everything I can think of on brew day. I get the rationale for questioning the measurement, instrument, any other variables when result doesn't match prediction. But first consider the widely different predictive results of the four water calculators used. That isn't on me or my technique...that's is just the math.
I've run your above data through my (still under development and not ready for release) version 4.0 of MpH. I obtain a predicted mash pH of 5.31, which is not too far off from your later pH measurements. Or to turn it around, I predict it would have taken 7.0 mL of Lactic acid to hit a mash pH of 5.4. Given your measured pH values, I estimate about 5 ml lactic acid would have resulted in a mash pH close to 5.4.
BTW, Beersmith's calculations are based on MpH 3.0, and using that I estimate a mash pH of 5.39 (vs Beersmith's 5.42 in your last post). I can tell you I believe (at this point) that MpH 3.0 overestimates the buffering capacity of the typical grist (and so would suggest more acid than is actually required). I believe this is also the case for Brewer's Friend (based on my observations that Brewer's Friend and MpH 3.0 typically give very similar results).
I'll also say this. Based on working with mash pH data that has been posted so far in this thread, I suspect the best that any generally useful mash predictor will be able to do is a standard deviation of about 0.15 between actual and predicted pH values. There are typically too many unknowns to do much better. One of the most important of these is the distilled-water pH of the base grain. Owing to differing amounts lactic acid bacteria that develop on the growing grain, the distilled-water mash pH can vary quite appreciably [See J.B. South, J. Inst. Brewing 102, 155 (1996)]. The effect of this is that different measurements of one particular malt (Weyermann pils, e.g.) are likely to show variations (i) among bags of malt, (ii) from growing location to growing location, (iii) from season to season, etc.
The upside to such variation is that nailing down mash pH to less that 0.1 or even 0.2 units of pH is not all that important, anyway. You were shooting for 5.4, and you hit 5.2. Nothing at all wrong with that.
Happy Brewing!
The back of the envelope calculations did but the statement that the range of this mash would be expected to be between 5.4 and 5.5 did not. Actually calcium and magnesium have quite small effects. Not enough to bring pH down by 0.2.
Believe me, I do. I have stated this here so many times that I am getting a bit tired of doing so over and over again but a pH estimator is an algorithm into which you put data about your malt, your water and your additions. There are two big sources of error: the data you put in and the processing algorithm. There are not entirely independent. If you enter pale ale malt then about the only way you could have screwed up was if it was really pilsner malt or caramel malt. Some programs are only able to distinguish between malts at that levell of sophistication. As there is so much variability in pale ale malts clearly just telling a program that you are using pale ale malty isn't going to give you very good answers most of the time. The errors induced by making some assumptions about the "acid properties" of the malts are then compounded when they are inserted into a naive algorithm that tries to predict pH without much regard for the chemical processes that set pH. The popular programs all suffer from both these error sources.
I think you have to take Bru'n water out of the pack as it is so far out of line with what the others predict that there is clearly something wrong with it. A program that robustly models the acid base chemistry of malts, lactic acid and water alkalinity says the the pH of your mash will be 5.47. But that program doesn't know what your pale ale malt's properties are. It knows, in detail, the acid base properties (titration curves) that it is clear that there is at least 0.1 and probably more possible deviation from that given the grain types that you have specified. Thus 5.39, 5.42, and 5.538 are all reasonable pH estimates for your mash. 5.04 isn't and neither is 5.22.
You don't know that. In fact it probably is on you as the back of the envelope calculation (and a more detailed one that looks at the proton deficit of each component of your mash) suggest. Over a hundred mEq of protons have shown up in your mash which have no apparent source. As an engineer you should know that when things don't compute there is probably something wrong and you should want to find out what it is. In any case there is a discrepancy here that I would think you would want an explanation for. There are lots of people here who will try to help you find it. Yes, the math has its shortcomings but when programs with the correct math are used you get answers that are too far away from 5.22 to be shrugged off as a problem with the math.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I can also get the @eric19312 recipe to mash at a pH of 5.40 in Mash Made Easy 5.30 with only 7 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, but only if I cut back on the Pilsner base malts DI_pH to 5.63, and the Pale Ale base malt to 5.62, as can be seen below. These changes were easily made via using the base malt DI_pH modifier 'drop down' cell in the lower right hand corner of MME.
@dmr, what did you assume the Pilsner and Pale Ale malts respective DI_pH's to be for your test run of MpH 4.0? And ditto for the Flaked wheat...
@dmr, what did you assume the Pilsner and Pale Ale malts respective DI_pH's to be for your test run of MpH 4.0? And ditto for the Flaked wheat...
Big Monk
Trappist Please! 🍷
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2015
- Messages
- 2,192
- Reaction score
- 1,151
That’s pretty low for euro base malts though.
I would imagine either of those to be below 5.75 and much more likely > 5.80.
Oddly Bru’n Water was closest to measured pH. But toss that one and keep the rest?
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Flaked Wheat, being unmalted, generally has a rather noticeably high pH. How does BW account for the inherently high pH of Flaked Wheat? Does it still default it to just another base malt (as if it was malted barley, and as such more acidic)?
Unless I have a very good reason to do otherwise, I assume the distilled-water pH of Pils/Lager/2-row malts to be 5.72. That is what I assumed in my calculations for eric19312's beer. Why? Because I feel that is a good average distilled-water mash pH for malts in this category. Sure, some are higher and some are lower, but as I discussed above, unless one has an actual measurement of grain from your own bag of malt, I don't think one can really do any better.
Similarly, I assume malts in the Pale Ale/Vienna/Mild category have a distilled-water mash pH of 5.69.
I assumed the flaked wheat pH to be 6.57, which is what my collaborator on our recent paper measured. Distilled-water pH is not the whole story, though, as the buffering capacity of the flaked wheat we measured is about 60% of that of malts in the pils/lager/2-row category. Generally, differences in buffering capacity must be accounted for when modeling mash pH.
I selected "wheat/oat" as the category. Didn't have a flaked wheat option.
In another thread, someone suggest I post my Pilsner that came out with an ultra low mash pH using the acid predictions I got from BeerSmith 2. I've had hit or miss luck with BS2 predicting mash pH. Sometimes spot on, but other times asking me to dump a bunch of acid in. This is a case where it asked for a lot of acid.
Pilsner Recipe
13.5 lbs German Pilsner
0.5 lbs Carahell
0.15 lbs Dark Munich
8.3 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.1 g Gypsum
7.1 g Epsom
1.7 g CaCl
4.9 oz (145 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mash @ 151F
@ 18 min into mash: pH=4.41 @ 24.6C
@ 30 min into mash: pH=4.59 @ 19.2C
@ 90 min into mash: pH = 4.86 @ 22.2C
Pilsner Recipe
13.5 lbs German Pilsner
0.5 lbs Carahell
0.15 lbs Dark Munich
8.3 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.1 g Gypsum
7.1 g Epsom
1.7 g CaCl
4.9 oz (145 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mash @ 151F
@ 18 min into mash: pH=4.41 @ 24.6C
@ 30 min into mash: pH=4.59 @ 19.2C
@ 90 min into mash: pH = 4.86 @ 22.2C
Here's another one:
Pale Ale Recipe
4 lbs Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Munich
0.5 lbs Flaked Oats
0.25 lbs Caramel 40L
5.0 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
2.3 g Gypsum
3.7 g Epsom
1.3 g CaCl
0.3 g NaCl
1.4 oz (41 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mashed @ 122F for 30 min, then heated to 156F
@ 0 min into 156F mash: pH=5.53 @ 25.0C
@ 15 min into 156F mash: pH=5.55 @ 21.4C
@ 30 min into 156F mash: pH = 5.56 @ 22.6C
Pale Ale Recipe
4 lbs Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Munich
0.5 lbs Flaked Oats
0.25 lbs Caramel 40L
5.0 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
2.3 g Gypsum
3.7 g Epsom
1.3 g CaCl
0.3 g NaCl
1.4 oz (41 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mashed @ 122F for 30 min, then heated to 156F
@ 0 min into 156F mash: pH=5.53 @ 25.0C
@ 15 min into 156F mash: pH=5.55 @ 21.4C
@ 30 min into 156F mash: pH = 5.56 @ 22.6C
And another one...
IPA Recipe
10 lb 2-row
2.83 lb Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Caramel 40L
10.3 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.8 g Gypsum
7.7 g Epsom
2.7 g CaCl
0.6 g NaCl
2.7 oz (80 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
@ 40 min into mash: pH=5.59 @ 22.2C
@ 60 min into mash: pH=5.60 @ 22.3C
IPA Recipe
10 lb 2-row
2.83 lb Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Caramel 40L
10.3 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.8 g Gypsum
7.7 g Epsom
2.7 g CaCl
0.6 g NaCl
2.7 oz (80 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
@ 40 min into mash: pH=5.59 @ 22.2C
@ 60 min into mash: pH=5.60 @ 22.3C
And last one...
Dark Lager Recipe
7.25 lb Pilsner
1.3 lb Vienna
0.5 lb Caramel 60L
0.5 lb Caravienne
0.5 lb Chocolate malt
9.2 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.6 g Gypsum
7.9 g Epsom
1.9 g CaCl
1.5 oz (44 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mash @ 151F
@ 30 min into mash: pH=5.61 @ 18.2C
@ 60 min into mash: pH=5.53 @ 22.0C
Dark Lager Recipe
7.25 lb Pilsner
1.3 lb Vienna
0.5 lb Caramel 60L
0.5 lb Caravienne
0.5 lb Chocolate malt
9.2 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.6 g Gypsum
7.9 g Epsom
1.9 g CaCl
1.5 oz (44 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mash @ 151F
@ 30 min into mash: pH=5.61 @ 18.2C
@ 60 min into mash: pH=5.53 @ 22.0C
Big Monk
Trappist Please! 🍷
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2015
- Messages
- 2,192
- Reaction score
- 1,151
About twice as much a was probably actually needed.
Hey Vince,
Your data have been very helpful. Any chance we'll see any of your older data in the near future? Cheers!
-dmr
Hi, Mark sure I'm happy to help out where I can.
Belgian Witbier
15.5 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 1.8L]
6 lbs. - Torrified Wheat [2.0L]
1 lb. - Flaked Oats [1.0L]
0.5 lb. - Munich [9.0L]
8.7g - gypsum, 6g - calc. chlor., 5.9g - Epsom salt, 15ml lactic acid [88%] and 5g baking soda
13ppm - mg2+, 81ppm - Ca2+, 38ppm - Na+, 68ppm - Cl-, 161ppm - SO42-, 96ppm - HCO3
5.34 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in from start of mash at 77F
Last edited:
Looking back I wish I had the foresight to save all of my pH testing results in a single place. Admittedly today I'm better prepared and more organized for the task than I was a few years ago.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Does anyone have specific data for Torrified Wheat? In working with one of my Mash Made Easy users and his recipes I have quite tentatively set it at being rather close to 5.6 DI_pH. And when I apply this value to @ScrewyBrewer's recipe as seen above I come right close to nailing a match to his results.
Please keep them coming. This is great data.
Please keep them coming. This is great data.
Last edited:
Here's another one.
Belgian Witbier II
14 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 2.0L]
3.5 lbs. - Torrified Wheat [2.0L]
2.0 lbs. - Vienna [4.0L]
2.5 lbs. - Flaked Wheat [2.0L]
1 lb. - Flaked Oats [1.0L]
12.4g - gypsum, 7.7g - calc. chlor., 5.1g - Epsom salt, 13ml lactic acid [88%] and 7.4g baking soda
11ppm - mg2+, 111ppm - Ca2+, 53ppm - Na+, 86ppm - Cl, 200ppm - SO42-, 134ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 65F taken 25 minutes into the 154F mash was 5.25.
Belgian Witbier II
14 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 2.0L]
3.5 lbs. - Torrified Wheat [2.0L]
2.0 lbs. - Vienna [4.0L]
2.5 lbs. - Flaked Wheat [2.0L]
1 lb. - Flaked Oats [1.0L]
12.4g - gypsum, 7.7g - calc. chlor., 5.1g - Epsom salt, 13ml lactic acid [88%] and 7.4g baking soda
11ppm - mg2+, 111ppm - Ca2+, 53ppm - Na+, 86ppm - Cl, 200ppm - SO42-, 134ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 65F taken 25 minutes into the 154F mash was 5.25.
ezRecipe 2.01 is showing a DIpH of 6.04 for Torrified Wheat.
Here's another one, it dates back to 2014.
American IPA
22 lbs. - Pale Malt 6-Row [2.0L]
1 lbs. - Cara-Pils/Dextrine [2.0L]
.5 lbs. - Crystal [40L]
20g - gypsum, 8.9g - calc. chlor., 7.5g - Epsom salt, 9ml lactic acid [88%] and 8g baking soda
16ppm - mg2+, 156ppm - Ca2+, 56ppm - Na+, 98ppm - Cl, 313ppm - SO42-, 144ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 75F taken 30 minutes into the 149F mash was 5.42.
American IPA
22 lbs. - Pale Malt 6-Row [2.0L]
1 lbs. - Cara-Pils/Dextrine [2.0L]
.5 lbs. - Crystal [40L]
20g - gypsum, 8.9g - calc. chlor., 7.5g - Epsom salt, 9ml lactic acid [88%] and 8g baking soda
16ppm - mg2+, 156ppm - Ca2+, 56ppm - Na+, 98ppm - Cl, 313ppm - SO42-, 144ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 75F taken 30 minutes into the 149F mash was 5.42.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
What is your volume of mash water?
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
What I would like to see is a gaggle of data for the likes of deeply robust stouts and other beers using a load of deep roasted and/or caramel/crystal malts (or heavy combinations of both). In my opinion it's far easier to get a reasonable software assisted mash pH "match" to lighter colored beers wherein most of the grist can "effectively" be considered to be basic with respect to the typically targeted mash pH. The significant differences in mash pH assistant software will most likely become far more apparent when the really acidic malts begin to be piled into the grist.
As an example of this, I recall perhaps 6-8 months or so ago playing with a highly ladened in caramel and deep roasted recipe in conjunction with the various of the then available mash pH assistant software packages, and seeing outputs radically ranging from a need for the addition of mash water acidification to a need for the addition of up to 16-17 grams of Baking soda, and also results that fall between these extremes.
As an example of this, I recall perhaps 6-8 months or so ago playing with a highly ladened in caramel and deep roasted recipe in conjunction with the various of the then available mash pH assistant software packages, and seeing outputs radically ranging from a need for the addition of mash water acidification to a need for the addition of up to 16-17 grams of Baking soda, and also results that fall between these extremes.
Last edited:
I treat 12-gallons of RO water to use as mash strike water.
Here's a single malt SmAsH batch from 2017.
American Pale Ale
22 lbs. - Maris Otter [4.0L]
6.4g - gypsum, 11.5g - calc. chlor., 5g - Epsom salt, and 7ml lactic acid [88%]
11ppm - mg2+, 102ppm - Ca2+, 8ppm - Na+, 126ppm - Cl, 125ppm - SO42-, 16ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 70F taken 30 minutes into the 150F mash was 5.16.
@dmr that's about all I can locate for today. I'll be brewing a Pale Ale in the next few weeks and posting those results.
American Pale Ale
22 lbs. - Maris Otter [4.0L]
6.4g - gypsum, 11.5g - calc. chlor., 5g - Epsom salt, and 7ml lactic acid [88%]
11ppm - mg2+, 102ppm - Ca2+, 8ppm - Na+, 126ppm - Cl, 125ppm - SO42-, 16ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 70F taken 30 minutes into the 150F mash was 5.16.
@dmr that's about all I can locate for today. I'll be brewing a Pale Ale in the next few weeks and posting those results.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 7,690
- Reaction score
- 14,643
Ok, here's one with some dark malts:
An Alt:
Bairds Maris Otter - 2.5-3.5L 4.25 pound
Dingemanns Pilsner Malt 1.6 3.25 pound
Best Malz Munich Malt - 4.2-8.0L 1 pound
Weyermann CARAFA II Special - 413-450L 4 ounce
Best Malz CaraMunich I Malt - 35L 4 ounce
Thomas Fawcett Pale Chocolate Malt - 180L 4 ounce
27 qt essentially ro water (3ppm ca, 6 na, 7 cl, 37 tds, 8 total hardness, caco3
Gypsum CaSO4 1.2 gm
CaCL 0.8 gm
Epsom MgSO4 2.7 gm
NaCL 1.4 gm
Pickling Lime CaOH 1.3 gm
Phosphoric Acid 85% 2.8 ml
pH 5.37, 74.4°F, 15min into mash sample.
An Alt:
Bairds Maris Otter - 2.5-3.5L 4.25 pound
Dingemanns Pilsner Malt 1.6 3.25 pound
Best Malz Munich Malt - 4.2-8.0L 1 pound
Weyermann CARAFA II Special - 413-450L 4 ounce
Best Malz CaraMunich I Malt - 35L 4 ounce
Thomas Fawcett Pale Chocolate Malt - 180L 4 ounce
27 qt essentially ro water (3ppm ca, 6 na, 7 cl, 37 tds, 8 total hardness, caco3
Gypsum CaSO4 1.2 gm
CaCL 0.8 gm
Epsom MgSO4 2.7 gm
NaCL 1.4 gm
Pickling Lime CaOH 1.3 gm
Phosphoric Acid 85% 2.8 ml
pH 5.37, 74.4°F, 15min into mash sample.
Vince,
Thanks for all the data!
Based on these additions and ion ppm values, I infer that your RO water is characterized as follows:
8 ppm Na, 4 ppm Cl, 3.3 ppm SO4, 16 ppm HCO3.
Is this correct (or at least in the ball park)?
Also, is your water profile the same for all the beer that you have posted?
It's not a huge deal, as the alkalinity is quite low, but it does make some difference in predicted pH values.
I look forward to it! Cheers!
Thanks for all the data!
Based on these additions and ion ppm values, I infer that your RO water is characterized as follows:
8 ppm Na, 4 ppm Cl, 3.3 ppm SO4, 16 ppm HCO3.
Is this correct (or at least in the ball park)?
Also, is your water profile the same for all the beer that you have posted?
It's not a huge deal, as the alkalinity is quite low, but it does make some difference in predicted pH values.
I look forward to it! Cheers!
Yes Mark, those numbers are close to what I enter for my RO water.
I use the numbers pictured above as the baseline for beers brewed starting with 100% RO water.
I use the numbers pictured above as the baseline for beers brewed starting with 100% RO water.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 7,690
- Reaction score
- 14,643
Boont Amber clone
8.0 # warminster Maris Otter (2.3-3°L) I used 2.65
1.0 # warminster dk crystal (65-90°L) I used 77.5
1.0 # Briess C40
30qt full vol BIAB water
Ca: 3
Mg: 0
Na: 6
Cl: 7
SO4: 3
Alk as CaCO3: 8
ph: 7.7
1.7gm Gypsum
2.8gm Epson
3.4gm CaCl
1.2gm NaHCO3
BF: 5.46
TWE 1.08: 5.47
MpH 3.0: 5.44
Measured 39m into mash, cooled to 66.4° - 5.38
(calibrated immediately prior, ph7 temp 63.4; ph 4 temp 64.1)
8.0 # warminster Maris Otter (2.3-3°L) I used 2.65
1.0 # warminster dk crystal (65-90°L) I used 77.5
1.0 # Briess C40
30qt full vol BIAB water
Ca: 3
Mg: 0
Na: 6
Cl: 7
SO4: 3
Alk as CaCO3: 8
ph: 7.7
1.7gm Gypsum
2.8gm Epson
3.4gm CaCl
1.2gm NaHCO3
BF: 5.46
TWE 1.08: 5.47
MpH 3.0: 5.44
Measured 39m into mash, cooled to 66.4° - 5.38
(calibrated immediately prior, ph7 temp 63.4; ph 4 temp 64.1)
