Wanted: Mash pH Measurements

[micraftbeer]

Here's another one:

Pale Ale Recipe
4 lbs Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Munich
0.5 lbs Flaked Oats
0.25 lbs Caramel 40L
5.0 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
2.3 g Gypsum
3.7 g Epsom
1.3 g CaCl
0.3 g NaCl
1.4 oz (41 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mashed @ 122F for 30 min, then heated to 156F
@ 0 min into 156F mash: pH=5.53 @ 25.0C
@ 15 min into 156F mash: pH=5.55 @ 21.4C
@ 30 min into 156F mash: pH = 5.56 @ 22.6C

 

[micraftbeer]

And another one...

IPA Recipe
10 lb 2-row
2.83 lb Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Caramel 40L
10.3 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.8 g Gypsum
7.7 g Epsom
2.7 g CaCl
0.6 g NaCl
2.7 oz (80 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
@ 40 min into mash: pH=5.59 @ 22.2C
@ 60 min into mash: pH=5.60 @ 22.3C

 

[micraftbeer]

And last one...

Dark Lager Recipe
7.25 lb Pilsner
1.3 lb Vienna
0.5 lb Caramel 60L
0.5 lb Caravienne
0.5 lb Chocolate malt
9.2 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.6 g Gypsum
7.9 g Epsom
1.9 g CaCl
1.5 oz (44 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mash @ 151F
@ 30 min into mash: pH=5.61 @ 18.2C
@ 60 min into mash: pH=5.53 @ 22.0C

 

[Big Monk]

In another thread, someone suggest I post my Pilsner that came out with an ultra low mash pH using the acid predictions I got from BeerSmith 2. I'or miss luck with BS2 predicting mash pH. Sometimes spot on, but other times asking me to dump a bunch of acid in. This is a case where it asked for a lot of acid.

Pilsner Recipe
13.5 lbs German Pilsner
0.5 lbs Carahell
0.15 lbs Dark Munich
8.3 gallons of tap water (after 3-filter activated carbon filtration).
LaMotte water test says: 30 ppm Chloride, 0 ppm Sulfate, Total Alkalinity 80 ppm (as CaCO3), Total Hardness 70 ppm (as CaCO3), Ca ions 24 ppm, Mg ions 2.42 ppm, Residual Alkalinity 61.4 ppm (as CaCO3), Sodium 24.38 ppm
4.1 g Gypsum
7.1 g Epsom
1.7 g CaCl
4.9 oz (145 ml) of 10% Phosphoric Acid
Mash @ 151F
@ 18 min into mash: pH=4.41 @ 24.6C
@ 30 min into mash: pH=4.59 @ 19.2C
@ 90 min into mash: pH = 4.86 @ 22.2C

 

[ajdelange]

In another thread, someone suggest I post my Pilsner that came out with an ultra low mash pH using the acid predictions I got from BeerSmith 2. I've had hit or miss luck with BS2 predicting mash pH. Sometimes spot on, but other times asking me to dump a bunch of acid in. This is a case where it asked for a lot of acid.

About twice as much a was probably actually needed.

 

[dmr]

I have been recording actual brewday mash pH readings for several years and will post more as I get them organized.

Hey Vince,

Your data have been very helpful. Any chance we'll see any of your older data in the near future? Cheers!

-dmr

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Hey Vince,

Your data have been very helpful. Any chance we'll see any of your older data in the near future? Cheers!

-dmr

Hi, Mark sure I'm happy to help out where I can.

Belgian Witbier
15.5 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 1.8L]
6 lbs. - Torrified Wheat [2.0L]
1 lb. - Flaked Oats [1.0L]
0.5 lb. - Munich [9.0L]
8.7g - gypsum, 6g - calc. chlor., 5.9g - Epsom salt, 15ml lactic acid [88%] and 5g baking soda
13ppm - mg2+, 81ppm - Ca2+, 38ppm - Na+, 68ppm - Cl-, 161ppm - SO42-, 96ppm - HCO3
5.34 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in from start of mash at 77F

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Looking back I wish I had the foresight to save all of my pH testing results in a single place. Admittedly today I'm better prepared and more organized for the task than I was a few years ago.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Does anyone have specific data for Torrified Wheat? In working with one of my Mash Made Easy users and his recipes I have quite tentatively set it at being rather close to 5.6 DI_pH. And when I apply this value to @ScrewyBrewer's recipe as seen above I come right close to nailing a match to his results.

Please keep them coming. This is great data.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Here's another one.

Belgian Witbier II
14 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 2.0L]
3.5 lbs. - Torrified Wheat [2.0L]
2.0 lbs. - Vienna [4.0L]
2.5 lbs. - Flaked Wheat [2.0L]
1 lb. - Flaked Oats [1.0L]
12.4g - gypsum, 7.7g - calc. chlor., 5.1g - Epsom salt, 13ml lactic acid [88%] and 7.4g baking soda
11ppm - mg2+, 111ppm - Ca2+, 53ppm - Na+, 86ppm - Cl, 200ppm - SO42-, 134ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 65F taken 25 minutes into the 154F mash was 5.25.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Does anyone have specific data for Torrified Wheat? In working with one of my Mash Made Easy users and his recipes I have quite tentatively set it at being rather close to 5.6 DI_pH. And when I apply this value to @ScrewyBrewer's recipe as seen above I come right close to nailing a match to his results.

Please keep them coming. This is great data.

ezRecipe 2.01 is showing a DIpH of 6.04 for Torrified Wheat.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Here's another one, it dates back to 2014.

American IPA
22 lbs. - Pale Malt 6-Row [2.0L]
1 lbs. - Cara-Pils/Dextrine [2.0L]
.5 lbs. - Crystal [40L]
20g - gypsum, 8.9g - calc. chlor., 7.5g - Epsom salt, 9ml lactic acid [88%] and 8g baking soda
16ppm - mg2+, 156ppm - Ca2+, 56ppm - Na+, 98ppm - Cl, 313ppm - SO42-, 144ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 75F taken 30 minutes into the 149F mash was 5.42.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What is your volume of mash water?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What I would like to see is a gaggle of data for the likes of deeply robust stouts and other beers using a load of deep roasted and/or caramel/crystal malts (or heavy combinations of both). In my opinion it's far easier to get a reasonable software assisted mash pH "match" to lighter colored beers wherein most of the grist can "effectively" be considered to be basic with respect to the typically targeted mash pH. The significant differences in mash pH assistant software will most likely become far more apparent when the really acidic malts begin to be piled into the grist.

As an example of this, I recall perhaps 6-8 months or so ago playing with a highly ladened in caramel and deep roasted recipe in conjunction with the various of the then available mash pH assistant software packages, and seeing outputs radically ranging from a need for the addition of mash water acidification to a need for the addition of up to 16-17 grams of Baking soda, and also results that fall between these extremes.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

What is your volume of mash water?

I treat 12-gallons of RO water to use as mash strike water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Here's a single malt SmAsH batch from 2017.

American Pale Ale
22 lbs. - Maris Otter [4.0L]
6.4g - gypsum, 11.5g - calc. chlor., 5g - Epsom salt, and 7ml lactic acid [88%]
11ppm - mg2+, 102ppm - Ca2+, 8ppm - Na+, 126ppm - Cl, 125ppm - SO42-, 16ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 70F taken 30 minutes into the 150F mash was 5.16.

@dmr that's about all I can locate for today. I'll be brewing a Pale Ale in the next few weeks and posting those results.

 

[balrog]

Ok, here's one with some dark malts:
An Alt:
Bairds Maris Otter - 2.5-3.5L 4.25 pound
Dingemanns Pilsner Malt 1.6 3.25 pound
Best Malz Munich Malt - 4.2-8.0L 1 pound
Weyermann CARAFA II Special - 413-450L 4 ounce
Best Malz CaraMunich I Malt - 35L 4 ounce
Thomas Fawcett Pale Chocolate Malt - 180L 4 ounce

27 qt essentially ro water (3ppm ca, 6 na, 7 cl, 37 tds, 8 total hardness, caco3
Gypsum CaSO4 1.2 gm
CaCL 0.8 gm
Epsom MgSO4 2.7 gm
NaCL 1.4 gm
Pickling Lime CaOH 1.3 gm
Phosphoric Acid 85% 2.8 ml
pH 5.37, 74.4°F, 15min into mash sample.

 

[dmr]

Vince,

Thanks for all the data!

American Pale Ale
22 lbs. - Maris Otter [4.0L]
6.4g - gypsum, 11.5g - calc. chlor., 5g - Epsom salt, and 7ml lactic acid [88%]
11ppm - mg2+, 102ppm - Ca2+, 8ppm - Na+, 126ppm - Cl, 125ppm - SO42-, 16ppm - HCO3
pH reading @ 70F taken 30 minutes into the 150F mash was 5.16.

Based on these additions and ion ppm values, I infer that your RO water is characterized as follows:

8 ppm Na, 4 ppm Cl, 3.3 ppm SO4, 16 ppm HCO3.

Is this correct (or at least in the ball park)?

Also, is your water profile the same for all the beer that you have posted?

It's not a huge deal, as the alkalinity is quite low, but it does make some difference in predicted pH values.

@dmr that's about all I can locate for today. I'll be brewing a Pale Ale in the next few weeks and posting those results.

I look forward to it! Cheers!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Yes Mark, those numbers are close to what I enter for my RO water.

I use the numbers pictured above as the baseline for beers brewed starting with 100% RO water.

 

[balrog]

Boont Amber clone
8.0 # warminster Maris Otter (2.3-3°L) I used 2.65
1.0 # warminster dk crystal (65-90°L) I used 77.5
1.0 # Briess C40
30qt full vol BIAB water
Ca: 3
Mg: 0
Na: 6
Cl: 7
SO4: 3
Alk as CaCO3: 8
ph: 7.7

1.7gm Gypsum
2.8gm Epson
3.4gm CaCl
1.2gm NaHCO3

BF: 5.46
TWE 1.08: 5.47
MpH 3.0: 5.44

Measured 39m into mash, cooled to 66.4° - 5.38
(calibrated immediately prior, ph7 temp 63.4; ph 4 temp 64.1)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With Mash Made Easy version 6.00 (still in testing) I get 5.30 as the predicted mash pH for your Boont Amber Clone by accepting the initial defaults sans for selecting for Maris Otter.

MME is calling for an additional 1.49 grams of baking soda (on top of the 1.2 grams added) if you desire to hit 5.4 pH.

 

[eric19312]

I can also get the @eric19312 recipe to mash at a pH of 5.40 in Mash Made Easy 5.30 with only 7 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, but only if I cut back on the Pilsner base malts DI_pH to 5.63, and the Pale Ale base malt to 5.62, as can be seen below. These changes were easily made via using the base malt DI_pH modifier 'drop down' cell in the lower right hand corner of MME.

@dmr, what did you assume the Pilsner and Pale Ale malts respective DI_pH's to be for your test run of MpH 4.0? And ditto for the Flaked wheat...

View attachment 610612

This thread died and I forgot Silver's calculation above and brewed similar beer again. Used beersmith and previous experience with this grist and cut my lactic acid addition back to 6mL thinking I would land somewhere between 5.4 and 5.5 at 30 min. Dang me 5.25! Came back here and tried recalculating in MME. By setting my Avangard pilsner malt to "~5L to 6L Base Malts, 5.50" in this calculator I land just about right on top of actual result.

I've brewed this recipe with anywhere from 80-100% European Pilsner (Avangard or Best) and balance flaked corn or flaked oats and always get lower than expected pH.
I do trust my pH meter and have run the stability test and calibrate morning of brew day or check it against buffer if recently calibrated.
My base water values are from local water authority and represent averages of about 20 tests. I'm wondering how far off this water it would take to get the surprisingly low pH values I am experiencing. If my water was actually much harder than I am assuming would my actual pH be lower or higher than expected?
I guess I could test with DI water from store but 22 gallons of store bought water seems pretty challenging.

Oh one other thing was different about this batch...1 oz mash hops (whole leaf) and about 1/2 lb rice hulls. Ground this batch a little fine and stuck my recirc until I added the rice hulls.

Any thoughts on which water calculator would be best suited to my mostly/all base malts brewing style?

 

[balrog]

I still run every batch through 6 calculators, and currently the rms of BrewersFriend and MME are similar and lower than other calculators. Averaged together, BF+MME result's rms is even a little lower. What is interesting is looking at rms difference (from measured pH) vs SRM of the batch

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What is the 'MME' mash pH prediction for the case whereby the % of Kolbach shift for Ca and Mg is set to 100%, the grist buffer multiplier value is set to 0.60, and Pilsner malt is selected in the base malt drop-down cell?

 

[balrog]

What is the 'MME' mash pH prediction for the case whereby the % of Kolbach shift for Ca and Mg is set to 100%, the grist buffer multiplier value is set to 0.60, and Pilsner malt is selected in the base malt drop-down cell?

I'll have to recalc some of these as they have been used "point in time" with the release MME available at that time.

 

[eric19312]

What is the 'MME' mash pH prediction for the case whereby the % of Kolbach shift for Ca and Mg is set to 100%, the grist buffer multiplier value is set to 0.60, and Pilsner malt is selected in the base malt drop-down cell?

5.46

 

[eric19312]

I still run every batch through 6 calculators, and currently the rms of BrewersFriend and MME are similar and lower than other calculators. Averaged together, BF+MME result's rms is even a little lower. What is interesting is looking at rms difference (from measured pH) vs SRM of the batch
View attachment 640632

Interesting...my very light colored beers seem to all fall in the "way off" part of your graph.

 

[balrog]

I subscribe to the well-repeated wisdom that until I actually have and use the malt's values, no calculator will be able to predict accurately. And until I do test mashes, I really cannot expect more than a good guess.

 

[Robert65]

^^^^This.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@eric19312 It appears as if your lot of Avangard Pilsner might be performing more along the lines of a Generic 2-Row variety of base malt. For your next brew or two try applying the following settings to 'MME 6.70':

Kolbach @ 100%
Buffer Multiplier at 0.60
Avangard Pilsner set to Generic 2-Row

It would be great to get a measured DI_pH for the Avangard Pilsner. I'm still working on the possibility that there is roughly a 0.22 to 0.24 pH point offset for base malt between its "wort pH" and its "mash pH", but that is being discussed on a different thread.

@balrog, I wonder if these same settings would tone down your measured RMS error spike as witnessed for light colored brews with 'MME'?