Want to brew a good pilsner - decoction mash?

[Kaiser]

So, for you it's just a mash in point, not an acid rest?

No just a convenient rest.

BTW, I brewed a maibock last weekend following the advice on your website. Thanks! If I have time, Im also planning on using your advice for a doppelbock.

Great, let me know how it turns out. That reminds me that I soon have to get started on mine as well.

Mensch, If you mash thick enough you can get a decent amount of grain into the decoction. Note that this decoction is done closer to the boiling point which means that more volume is needed anyway to get the same temperature jump compared to a lower temp rest.

Kai

Kai

 

[menschmaschine]

Note that this decoction is done closer to the boiling point which means that more volume is needed anyway to get the same temperature jump compared to a lower temp rest.

Good point. Thanks.

 

[Denny]

Great, let me know how it turns out. That reminds me that I soon have to get started on mine as well.

I used the S-189 dry lager yeast on it. Have you tried that one?

 

[Kaiser]

I used the S-189 dry lager yeast on it. Have you tried that one?

No, I haven’t used many dry yeasts yet. Only w34/70 once and that was an emergency. I maintain my own yeast bank and the #1 yeast for me is the WY2206 which has made some of my best beers yet. I briefly tried WLP800 but found that it throws more sulphur. I hope to try and get the WLP830 soon. This I believe might be a better choice for a Pilsner (at least the German variety) as the WY2206 has a hard time reaching an attenuation close to the limit of attenuation.

Kai

 

[Denny]

2206 is my go to lager yeast, too. I just had a chance to brew and my 2206 starter wasn't ready so I broke out the S-189. What kind of FG are you looking for on your pils that 2206 has a hard time reaching?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Hope I'm not hijacking too much but this is at least somewhat on-topic.

After many years away I'm gonna brew a Pils as my second batch. I got 6.5# German Pils, 1# Vienna, and 1# Acidulated...and some Saaz of course. I planned on using mostly Distilled water for the mash but I was still concerned about pH so that's why I got the acidulated. I didn't wanna do a decoction on my second batch after so many years away so I was planning a step-infusion with an acid rest.

Does this sound OK so far? Is acidulated OK or are there 'issues' with it? How much for a 5 gal batch?

Should I add anything to the distilled water? Or maybe mix the distilled with some spring water?

 

[menschmaschine]

Only w34/70 once and that was an emergency.

What did you think of that yeast? I usually use WLP-830, but have been thinking of trying this. I've read things that imply they're the same strain.

 

[Kaiser]

What kind of FG are you looking for on your pils that 2206 has a hard time reaching?

2.5 Plato for exaple if the fast ferment test stopped at 2.3 -2.4 Plato. This means that there are very little fermentable sugars left in the beer. Given that the fast ferment test doesn't have the popularity I'd like it to have , it becomes difficult to compare these numbers. I also rack the beer to a secondary keg before it is fully done and expect to get carbonation while the yeast is finishing the beer. But sometimes that racking happens to early which may have something to do with that. But 2206 is a very good flocculator which may also be a factor in this.

Mensch, since I mixed yeasts in that case (added the dry yeast b/c the original yeast didn't start as fast as I wanted it to) I can't tell what the dry yeast by itself would have done. I heard the same about it WLP830 and w34/70 being the same. Its very likely but I also heard the same about WLP830 and WY2112 and many brewers swear that they taste different.

SpanishCastleAle, I don't think that R/O or distilled water is good for brewing any style. While Pilsen water is very close to R/O water they may actyally add salts like Gypsum to the water. You need at least some calcium in the water and a bit more sulphate for the bitterness. My eperience with only pilsner malt is that a residual alkalinity of about -20 ppm HCO3- will give you a cold sample mash pH of about 5.5. But you are adding some vienna, which is darker and will lower the mash pH a little. My last Pilsner was brewed with 97% Pilsner malt, 3% acid malt and water with a residual alkalinity of -20 ppm HCO3. The mash pH was around 5.4.

So, I'd add at least gypsum to get to about 60-70 ppm Ca which should bring your RA into a range of -40..-20 ppm HCO3. You can use John Palmer's residual alkalinity spread sheet to figure out the exact amounts.

Kai

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Thanks Kai. That's what I was thinking of doing...using mostly distilled with gypsum and a little spring water. I do have some Gypsum and Calcium Chloride (or Chalk...one of those)...but def Gypsum. Of course they're like 8 years old but whatever.

 

[thdewitt]

So, I'd add at least gypsum to get to about 60-70 ppm Ca which should bring your RA into a range of -40..-20 ppm HCO3. You can use John Palmer's residual alkalinity spread sheet to figure out the exact amounts.

Kai

So, I followed Kaisers directions and I am building Pilsner water from Palmers spreadsheets and I came up with the following for 6 gallons of distilled water. Does this look good to you?
CA 62, mg 4, alk 8, na 4, cl 64, sulfate 81, ra-39,chloride/sulfate balanced

This using the following additions: 2.6 g gypsum, 3 g calcium chloride, 1 g Epsom salt, and .3 g baking soda.

Does this look like good Bohemian pilsner water from distilled.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Kaiser]

yes, looks good.

Kai

 

[BeerCanuck]

I have been wanting to do an Urquell clone for awhile.
Lots of good info in this thread

Cheers;
BeerCanuck

 

[MacGruber]

I did a SA Noble Pils clone using a decoction mash. It's dry hopping in the secondary now and it's amazing. I posted the recipe I used in another thread but here it is:

I made a SA Noble Pils Clone using a decoction mash for my first AG brew. It's still in primary, but I took a hydrometer reading today to see how close I was to transferring. I'm still about 2 days from transferring, but I just have to say how AMAZING this turned out. I will NEVER go back to extract brewing. The decoction gave me exactly what I wanted: a super malty beer that is accented by the hops. I used so much information from separate parts of this website and a Czecherboard Pilsener recipe from More Homebrew Favorites. Here was my recipe I used based on other recipes I found:

10 lbs German Pilsener Malt
1 lb. Carapils Malt

Mix all 5 noble hops in a bag: 1 oz. Tettnang, 1 oz. Spalter, 2oz. Hallertauer Mittel (LHBS was out of Hersbrucker), and 2 oz of Saaz. Then I measured out

2oz. of mixture at 60 min.
1 oz. of mixture at 15 min. along with whirlfloc
1 oz. of mixture at the end of the boil.
2oz. of mixture for dry hopping

Starter of 1 qt. of WLP 802 - Czech Budejovice Lager Yeast

Procedure:
Heated 14 qts of water to 160 and placed 11 qts in mash tun to preheat for 15 min. Add the 11 lbs of grain to the 11qts. and let it rest at 140F for 15 min. Removed 6 quarts of the mash and placed it back into my brewpot with the remaining 3 quarts of water at 150F. Raised the temp to 162 while stirring constantly and held it for 10 min. Raised the temp. to boiling and boiled for 10 min. I then added this back to the main mash while stirring. (It got a little hot - about 175-180 but I had ice water on hand to bring it down to 154F). Once my temp stabilized at 154F, I held the mash temp for 75 minutes. Batch sparged with 175F water in lieu of mashout. I collected 6.5gal of wort (my efficiency isn't so great, but it's my first batch). I boiled it for 60 min adding my hops at the normal 60, 15, end schedule. I ended up with 4.5 gal. I chilled to 70F, pitched my yeast starter and waited for signs of fermentation. Placed my primary in my kegerator and slowly brought it down to 48-50F.

OG - 1.052

 

[Denny]

The decoction gave me exactly what I wanted: a super malty beer that is accented by the hops.

I promise you I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but how do you know it was the decoction that did it? Especially when it's your first AG brew and you have nothing to compare it to.

 

[MacGruber]

Actually that's a good question and I don't see you as a jerk at all. I'm assuming it is because it has a very very similar malt taste/profile to SA and Victory beers that use decoction mashing. I'm going to try a single infusion for my brown ale this week to see the difference.

 

[Denny]

Try making exactly the same beer with an without a decoction, then do a blind triangle tasting. I did that experiment many years ago and the results were enlightening.

 

[MacGruber]

Nice. I'll definitely try that.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Try making exactly the same beer with an without a decoction, then do a blind triangle tasting. I did that experiment many years ago and the results were enlightening.

That's right about when some people say "properly done decoction" with the emphasis on 'properly done'. Then when you ask them to elaborate on 'properly done' is right about when they say "Um...it's complicated".

I still do them for fun occasionally but it's not like my decocted beers are noticably different than the others (and it's not for lack of trying to convince myself they are better). But I have never done it with under-modified malt either.

 

[Denny]

That's right about when some people say "properly done decoction" with the emphasis on 'properly done'. Then when you ask them to elaborate on 'properly done' is right about when they say "Um...it's complicated".

I still do them for fun occasionally but it's not like my decocted beers are noticably different than the others (and it's not for lack of trying to convince myself they are better). But I have never done it with under-modified malt either.

Excellent points! I still do about one a year just to try to convince myself I may be getting something form it. So far, I haven't....

 

[Denny]

Nice. I'll definitely try that.

Check this out, starting on pg. 25

 

[Malticulous]

My O'fest was a triple 30 minute decoction and I assure you it does indeed make a difference. A single 10 minute decoction doesn't do much more than an infusion. I've never had two beer side by side to compare but I have made dozens of similar beers both ways.

 

[Sean]

I want to try a Urquell with the BYO150 recipe. I have only done one lager. It was tasty, but not super clean, and was about 15 years ago. I am not sure if a decoction is needed, but better malt flavor might be a componant of the honey aroma:

10# grains..8# pils, 1# Vienna, .5# Munich, .5# carapils.

Water is probably my biggest issue. I need to read more.

The Mash I think I will do as in the mag. Forgive my non-Deutche terms:
10# grains in cooler with 14 quarts acidulated water at 144* = 131* for 15 or 20 min.

Draw off 8 qts, boil 5 min, add 5 qt back, stir, wait and take temp. Add or reserve the rest. mash for 45 min.

Sparge as an ale, boil 90 min. Ferment...

I will have to check temps and adjust as I go.

Any thoughts, comments, or insults?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I want to try a Urquell with the BYO150 recipe. I have only done one lager. It was tasty, but not super clean, and was about 15 years ago. I am not sure if a decoction is needed, but better malt flavor might be a componant of the honey aroma:

10# grains..8# pils, 1# Vienna, .5# Munich, .5# carapils.

Water is probably my biggest issue. I need to read more.

The Mash I think I will do as in the mag. Forgive my non-Deutche terms:
10# grains in cooler with 14 quarts acidulated water at 144* = 131* for 15 or 20 min.

Draw off 8 qts, boil 5 min, add 5 qt back, stir, wait and take temp. Add or reserve the rest. mash for 45 min.

Sparge as an ale, boil 90 min. Ferment...

I will have to check temps and adjust as I go.

Any thoughts, comments, or insults?

What temp is the rest at the second step? I did a Boh Pils about a month ago and did a mash similar to the one you posted (similar recipe too) but the second step was really high, like 158* F or so. Pilsner Urquell has very low attenuation @ ~69%-70%.

What is 'acidulated water'?

 

[Sean]

The BYO recipe calls for 155* for the second half of the mash. Middle of the road. I am not sure how well I will be able to hit that with a new process, but it will be fun to give it a shot.

By 'acidulated' I just mean adding gypsum to make sure the water is acid. I do need to read more about water.

When you taste your pils, post whether you think the decoction made a difference.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

The BYO recipe calls for 155* for the second half of the mash. Middle of the road. I am not sure how well I will be able to hit that with a new process, but it will be fun to give it a shot.

By 'acidulated' I just mean adding gypsum to make sure the water is acid. I do need to read more about water.

When you taste your pils, post whether you think the decoction made a difference.

Will do. I've only tasted non-carbed hydro samples so far but it tasted good already.

FWIW, gypsum doesn't really 'acidulate' the water, it just adds calcium which does help get the mash pH down. Similar effect though. You'll still need some sort of acid to get proper mash pH with a beer that light. Check out the Water Primer sticky in the science forum.

 

[StMarcos]

Will do. I've only tasted non-carbed hydro samples so far but it tasted good already.

FWIW, gypsum doesn't really 'acidulate' the water, it just adds calcium which does help get the mash pH down. Similar effect though. You'll still need some sort of acid to get proper mash pH with a beer that light. Check out the Water Primer sticky in the science forum.

So, it seems that you won't hit the proper mash pH, for light beers, using only RO/distilled and mineral additions. When people post detailed recipes (for light beers, say) with their built water, they almost never mention using some sort of acid. I wonder if a large majority of water builders on this forum could improve their beers by using pH meters and using, say, lactic acid.

I seem to need about 1/8-1/4tsp 88% lactic, for an 11lb grain bill, using 95-100% 2-3L malt, which is pretty much my grain for pilsners/helles. This is WITH built water, 75ppm Ca, no carbonate or bicarbonate.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

So, it seems that you won't hit the proper mash pH, for light beers, using only RO/distilled and mineral additions. When people post detailed recipes (for light beers, say) with their built water, they almost never mention using some sort of acid. I wonder if a large majority of water builders on this forum could improve their beers by using pH meters and using, say, lactic acid.

I seem to need about 1/8-1/4tsp 88% lactic, for an 11lb grain bill, using 95-100% 2-3L malt, which is pretty much my grain for pilsners/helles. This is WITH built water, 75ppm Ca, no carbonate or bicarbonate.

It depends on the water they are starting with but yeah, even with straight distilled with added Calcium you still need some sort of acid to get it low enough. When I post recipes I often don't even include the sauermalz (or lactic acid if I use that) and just let the brewer decide what to do with their water.