Decocted vs BIAB-ed DunkelWeizen

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Castro

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Happy New Year!

Just wanted to share the results of my experiment with brewing a Dunkelweizen in two ways - double decoction and BIAB.

The recipes for both beers included: 50 % wheat malt, 25 % light Munich and 25 % Vienna Malt. The yeast was WB06.
For the BIAB method I did one temp rest at 67 degrees C and then a mashout at 76 C.

The decoction actually was a bit of a disaster since my cooler was not keeping the temperature. So what happened is : 40 C -- > hot water infusion -- > 53 C ---> hot water infusion -- > 60 C After that I took my first thick decoction, boiled it for 15 minutes, but when I returned it to the main mash it's temp was already at 55 C, so instead of a rest at 72C I ended up with a rest at 65C. THe second decoction was similar because instead of going to a mash-out temp I ended up with a rest at 72C. Then first runnings and batch sparge.

Technical details:
BIAB Beer : SG 1044, FG 1012
Decoction Beer : SG 1051, FG 1012

As can be seen from the picture the decocted beer has darker, richer color.
Although I prefer the decocted beer, the taste difference is not that big and maybe due to other factors.

THat's it from me. Just wanted to share this experience since it was my first decoction. Drop a comment, would love to learn something new.

Keep brewing and enjoy responsibly.
 

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Grist weight and water volumes were the same?

Mash pH the same?

What were elapsed the mash times?

Was the BIAB single infusion (one could decoct with BIAB) sparged as the decocted batch was?

Wondering how many variables we're looking at.
 
Decoction is a fraud

The color difference is most likely increased oxidative melanoidin development.
Very interesting. I do decoctions because my stove top is weak and it will be hard to bring 20 Liters to higher temps. Also I will have to transfer it to a Lauter Tun later which I avoid with the cooler as MLT.

Grist weight and water volumes were the same?

Mash pH the same?

What were elapsed the mash times?

Was the BIAB single infusion (one could decoct with BIAB) sparged as the decocted batch was?

Wondering how many variables we're looking at.


The grist weight and the Volume of Beer to the fermenter were the same for both batches as I wanted to check the efficiency. However for the BIAB case the grist was crushed two weeks prior to brewing.

I don't sparge when BIAB-ing, just squizing the bag.

I was actually wondering what is happening with enzymes after this roller coaster :
40C -> 53C -> 60C -> 55C ( since my cooler was not retaining heat ) -> 65C (after first decoction) -> 72C

especially the part from 53C to 60C and then down to 55C?
 
I was actually wondering what is happening with enzymes after this roller coaster :
40C -> 53C -> 60C -> 55C ( since my cooler was not retaining heat ) -> 65C (after first decoction) -> 72C

especially the part from 53C to 60C and then down to 55C?
You won't get any significant denaturing of amylase (alpha or beta) or limit dextrinase at temps below about 62.5°C. Gelatinization of the starch will be slow at these lower temps, so you won't get a lot of hydrolysis (conversion of starch to sugar), as you cannot hydrolyze un-gelatinized starch. Once you get to about 65°C, you will denature about 40% of your limit dextrinase, and some beta amylase after 1 hour of mashing (but I assume your holds were shorter than that.) Up at 72°C, you will denature your beta amylase and limit dextrinase in a few minutes, but alpha amylase will continue to work for quite some time at this temperature. At 72°C, gelatinization will proceed much more quickly than at lower temps, so hydrolysis by alpha amylase will be much faster. However, since limit dextrinase will all be denatured, you will not be able to hydrolyze any of the limit dextrin into fermentable sugar, so you may end up with more dextrin in the final wort.

Brew on :mug:
 
Yeah the cooler couldn't keep the temp steady for more than 15 minutes.
I am wondering how people who decoct keep the temperatures steady in the cooler, especially when scooping the decoctions? For example, in the videos of BrauKaiser when he is doing the enhanced double decoction and taking 60% of the volume out of the cooler and into the boiling cattle. What is left in the cooler is mostly liquid that fills around half the capacity of the cooler. I am finding it impossible to keep the temp steady for a prolonged amount of time without using a blanket or a insulating foil inside the cooler. Anyone any ideas ?
 
Yeah the cooler couldn't keep the temp steady for more than 15 minutes.
I am wondering how people who decoct keep the temperatures steady in the cooler, especially when scooping the decoctions? For example, in the videos of BrauKaiser when he is doing the enhanced double decoction and taking 60% of the volume out of the cooler and into the boiling cattle. What is left in the cooler is mostly liquid that fills around half the capacity of the cooler. I am finding it impossible to keep the temp steady for a prolonged amount of time without using a blanket or an insulating foil inside the cooler. Anyone any ideas ?
When used to use a cooler I would put down a layer of foil on top of the mash in the cooler and have blankets wrapped around the outside, it was the only thing that worked well for me. Maybe have a small volume of near boiling water handy to add in and raise temps? It’s an imperfect solution.
 
When used to use a cooler I would put down a layer of foil on top of the mash in the cooler and have blankets wrapped around the outside, it was the only thing that worked well for me. Maybe have a small volume of near boiling water handy to add in and raise temps? It’s an imperfect solution.

I will try the foil and blanket solution. Thank you.
 
I brew a lot of hefeweizen and some dunklesweizen. I do a single decoction for every wheat brew now as I can taste a little more depth of malt character. Wheat beer in general benefits from the high heat for gelatinization. So I think this style is a fit for decoction.

As far as your recipe, it looks a bit light in color to me. Here is my recipe:
60% Wheat
33% Munich
7% Caramunich

If you are using dry yeast, I would switch to Munich Classic or the new W68 yeast from Fermentis. From what I have read, they will give you more of the traditional flavor profile.
 
I don't like the Munich Classic, prefer the WB06. Definitely will try the W68 but honestly none of aforementioned yeasts ever gave me the traditional banana and clove flavor.

Also should I decoct the Caramunich in your recipe ?
 
I am only going by reading others' opinions as I am a liquid yeast user. Yeast is your preference and I do not mean to tell you what to do. I had just read that some say WB06 does not seem to be a German wheat yeast. Many seem to say Munich Classic is the best at replicating liquid W68.

Decoction would be for the entire grain bill, not just one malt if that is what you mean?
 
I have made beers with Munich Classic that have lovely phenols and esters, and then others that really do not. So some good results, even frequently good, but not reliably so.

I've found WB06 to be a huge disappointment, totally missing the flavors I was hoping for. And isn't it diastaticus? DO NOT WANT.

So far I have only used W68 three times, at ~64 F for Dunkelweizen and Roggenbier/bock. Nice clove, very subdued banana, just what I was looking for. I haven't fermented it warmer to bring out strong banana esters.
 
I am only going by reading others' opinions as I am a liquid yeast user. Yeast is your preference and I do not mean to tell you what to do. I had just read that some say WB06 does not seem to be a German wheat yeast. Many seem to say Munich Classic is the best at replicating liquid W68.

Decoction would be for the entire grain bill, not just one malt if that is what you mean?

I think I read somewhere that one is not supposed to decoct specialty malts.
 
I have made beers with Munich Classic that have lovely phenols and esters, and then others that really do not. So some good results, even frequently good, but not reliably so.

I've found WB06 to be a huge disappointment, totally missing the flavors I was hoping for. And isn't it diastaticus? DO NOT WANT.

So far I have only used W68 three times, at ~64 F for Dunkelweizen and Roggenbier/bock. Nice clove, very subdued banana, just what I was looking for. I haven't fermented it warmer to bring out strong banana esters.
With W-68, did you tinker with pitch rates?
 
WB-06 is the Duvel strain, also available as Wyeast 1388 and White Labs WLP570. It is a weakly diastatic Belgian strain, excellent when used in a Belgian Golden Strong in my experience, which makes sense. I would recommend W-68 or Munich Classic for Hefeweizen instead. I personally use 5-6 grams of W-68 to ferment all my German weissbiers now.

I think the discrepancy between the OG of the decocted beer and the single infusion is easily explained by time difference alone. The decoction process takes a very long time, so more starch was made available and converted. I'm assuming OP mashed the infusion beer for only 60 minutes before mashing out. I would think a more apples to apples comparison would be performing the same mashing steps for the same timeframe without decocting.

Agree the difference in color is just from oxidation. Also agree the color is more similar to hefeweizen than dunkelweizen.
 
I utilize a single-decoction for all my Czech and German lagers, and plan to do so for my German wheat beers going forward.

I brew using the BIAB method and still do decoctions - the two techniques can be utilized together.

Munich Classic has been by far the best dry yeast I have found for hefeweizen and dunkelweizens, close to the performance of WLP300 or Wy3068.
 
WB-06 is the Duvel strain, also available as Wyeast 1388 and White Labs WLP570. It is a weakly diastatic Belgian strain, excellent when used in a Belgian Golden Strong in my experience, which makes sense. I would recommend W-68 or Munich Classic for Hefeweizen instead. I personally use 5-6 grams of W-68 to ferment all my German weissbiers now.

I think the discrepancy between the OG of the decocted beer and the single infusion is easily explained by time difference alone. The decoction process takes a very long time, so more starch was made available and converted. I'm assuming OP mashed the infusion beer for only 60 minutes before mashing out. I would think a more apples to apples comparison would be performing the same mashing steps for the same timeframe without decocting.

Agree the difference in color is just from oxidation. Also agree the color is more similar to hefeweizen than dunkelweizen.

I was too tired after 9 hours brew day so I didn't bother to do the BIAB on the same day.
 

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