Very LOW EFFICIENCY - Advice?

[dragonlor20]

So I brewed EdWort's Bee Cave Brewery Koelsch a couple of weeks ago. The target gravity I was supposed to hit was 1.052 and what I actually hit was 1.026 (I even checked that I got 1.000 with just water, and sure enough the hydrometer was not the issue). I batch sparged using a 10 gallon MLT. My cooler has the braid set up in a straight line (I did not use a T connection to make the braid circular). I hit my target temperature of 154* right on for the full hour. I think the step that I missed was stirring the grains at dough-in and sparge.

Could that be correct? Would missing the stir put my efficiency down so low? Do I need to change the braid setup or are others getting strong efficiency with this setup? For those who do have the braid setup in a similar manner, what kind of efficiency are you seeing?

I have had really poor luck with all grain. The first batch I made was just bad. I was using a stem thermometer and I think my mash was just too hot mixed with some probable oxidation and probably really bad PH - so that beer was just not good (I want to say it was astringent, but I am not sure if I can describe the flavor). This one seemed like it was going well but my OG was so low at the end and I only gained 4 points in the boil. I pitched anyways though. :rockin: It was bubbling less than 12 hours after I pitched, but the bubbles did stop pretty quickly (within a day or so).

I am thinking that this time I will use 5.2 stabilizer in the mash and make sure I stir well for the batch sparge to fix the efficiency. I got a new electric thermometer to fix any temperature issues.

 

[Shaggyt]

So I brewed [I think the step that I missed was stirring the grains at dough-in and sparge.

Could that be correct? Would missing the stir put my efficiency down so low?

Ummm...it's extremely important to stir. Think of it this way...you need your water to touch/soak each piece of grain to fully convert your sugars. By mixing, you are increasing your grain's exposure to water, thus maximizing your surface area-to-volume ratio. This should be done at dough-in and at every sparge.

Is it possible to stir too much? So I've heard (promotes tannin extraction) but if your mash temps are in the lower 150's, stir until you have no clumps, aka dough balls.

Lately, I've been running half my grain bill through the mill twice to increase efficiency. As a result, many dough balls are formed. I have found myself stirring the mash for about 10-15 minutes until all the dough balls are crushed.

Keep it simple before adding pH stabilizer and what not.

 

[HarkinBanks]

Stirring is certainly important, but volume of water is even more important. How much water did you use? On my first AG batch I used way too much water and ended up with a very weak beer. Also, how much do you boil off in one hour? If you are only getting 4 points, your boil isn't strong enough.

 

[manticle]

It has to be asked - did you temperature correct your reading (if you were reading hot wort) or was 1026 a chilled wort reading?

Sorry if it's obvious but hot wort will give a much lower reading. It still sounds very low but if the wort was hot then you may not have missed target as much as you think.

No need to go crazy on the stirring but stir you should says Yoda.

 

[Reelale]

I no-sparge so I don't know much about stirring during the sparge, but I know you have to stir at dough-in. Having said that, the only batch that I have exceeded my OG estimate was the last one where I stirred the mash after about 45 minutes, after I cleared the braid because it wasn't draining. I use a braid set-up just like yours. So my vote is yes, stir the mash Crush is very important too. Crush till you're scared, then tighten it down a little more.

 

[trailblazer]

i get fairly good effeciancy. i sparge slow, double grind my grains, and do a 90 minute boil. everything works out. its usualy a 2 man proccess adding grain for the mash...one person pours it slowly while the other stirs realy fast.

 

[Yooper]

How was your crush? Did you buy the grain already crushed, or crush it yourself?

 

[wilserbrewer]

You have to stir w/ batch sparging! Next time stir 3-5 minutes at dough in and each sparge water addition and report back. IMO this was no doubt your primary problem, and without fixing this, anything else is speculation.

 

[kornbread]

I batch sparge with a cooler and a braid. I routinely get eff. in the low 80s. Here's my procedure:

Mash: I dough in with 1.25 - 1.5 quarts of water per pound. I put the hot water in first (a little hotter than my desired temp.)

I close the lid to preheat the tun. When the temp drops down to my target temp, I just dump the grains in on top of the water and give it a good thorough stir making sure their are no clumps. Then I just leave it alone until it's done. I used to stir and check the temp in the middle of the mash. Now I just wrap the cooler in a blanket and, from experience, I know my system holds the temp just fine. I've gotten in the habit of doing an Iodine test at the end of the mash to make sure it's finished. If I get a reaction I just leave the mash in the cooler a little longer and check again.

Sparge: I measure how much liquid I collect from my first runnings. Then I figure how much more liquid that I need. Example: If I need 6.5 gallons in the boil pot, and I get 1.5 gallons of first runnings, then I need 5 more gallons of sparge water.

I split the sparge into two equal batches. (Using the above example: 2.5 Gallons in each.) While the mash is converting, I heat the sparge water to about 180ish F. When the mash is finished and drained, I dump in my water for the first sparge and stir. I let it set for about 5 - 10 min and then drain. Then I repeat for the second sparge.

Keep trying you'll figure it out. Hope this helps.

 

[archiefl98]

I would suspect crush as well. I had a friend bring some grain to brew at my place that he had crushed at the LHBS. I didn't even look at it, we just doughed in. After we got all of our runnings into the boil kettle, we were sitting about 30 points low!

I looked and each grain was cracked halfway in the center, but still all one piece. He got HORRIBLE extraction from that grain. I told him to come over and use my Barley Crusher next time. He looked at my crush and was frightened by how much flour I had in it! But I get 80% efficiency on normal brews and 65% on big beers (1.090-1.100) with batch sparging.

 

[david_42]

Crush, stirring and temperature are the three key areas.

 

[dragonlor20]

Ummm...it's extremely important to stir. Think of it this way...you need your water to touch/soak each piece of grain to fully convert your sugars. By mixing, you are increasing your grain's exposure to water, thus maximizing your surface area-to-volume ratio. This should be done at dough-in and at every sparge.

Is it possible to stir too much? So I've heard (promotes tannin extraction) but if your mash temps are in the lower 150's, stir until you have no clumps, aka dough balls.

Lately, I've been running half my grain bill through the mill twice to increase efficiency. As a result, many dough balls are formed. I have found myself stirring the mash for about 10-15 minutes until all the dough balls are crushed.

Keep it simple before adding pH stabilizer and what not.

Wow, lots of replies... I guess I start from the top. Yeah, I think you are right, I will correct one problem at a time. My new work schedule (I work overnight but get long strings of weekdays off) should let me brew more often. So I will start with the basic process step-by-step and see where that gets me. Thanks!

 

[dragonlor20]

Stirring is certainly important, but volume of water is even more important. How much water did you use? On my first AG batch I used way too much water and ended up with a very weak beer. Also, how much do you boil off in one hour? If you are only getting 4 points, your boil isn't strong enough.

I used 8 gallons total for the brew and ended with the 5.5. I mashed with 14 quarts.

I can turn up the heat on the boil. I felt like I was fighting boil-overs the whole time though...

 

[dragonlor20]

It has to be asked - did you temperature correct your reading (if you were reading hot wort) or was 1026 a chilled wort reading?

Sorry if it's obvious but hot wort will give a much lower reading. It still sounds very low but if the wort was hot then you may not have missed target as much as you think.

No need to go crazy on the stirring but stir you should says Yoda.

Good question, but yes, I did correct the temp on the reading. (And then checked the calibration to make sure that it was even reading correctly at ANY temperature).

 

[dragonlor20]

I no-sparge so I don't know much about stirring during the sparge, but I know you have to stir at dough-in. Having said that, the only batch that I have exceeded my OG estimate was the last one where I stirred the mash after about 45 minutes, after I cleared the braid because it wasn't draining. I use a braid set-up just like yours. So my vote is yes, stir the mash Crush is very important too. Crush till you're scared, then tighten it down a little more.

I have to crush at the homebrew store for now...

 

[dragonlor20]

You have to stir w/ batch sparging! Next time stir 3-5 minutes at dough in and each sparge water addition and report back. IMO this was no doubt your primary problem, and without fixing this, anything else is speculation.

Cool. That was my thought too, just looking for confirmation!

 

[dragonlor20]

I batch sparge with a cooler and a braid. I routinely get eff. in the low 80s. Here's my procedure:

Mash: I dough in with 1.25 - 1.5 quarts of water per pound. I put the hot water in first (a little hotter than my desired temp.)

Temperature wasn't really my issue. Beersmith calculated all of the temperatures exactly correct. I just put some boiling water in the MLT before starting the mash for a few minutes and everything else seemed to fall in place.

I want to say it was a 9lb brew, 1.25 quarts per pound would put me at 2.81 gallons (11+ quarts). I came in with 14 quarts as per Beersmith. If my temperatures are solid, do I really need the water decrease for efficiency?

Sparge: I measure how much liquid I collect from my first runnings. Then I figure how much more liquid that I need. Example: If I need 6.5 gallons in the boil pot, and I get 1.5 gallons of first runnings, then I need 5 more gallons of sparge water.

I split the sparge into two equal batches. (Using the above example: 2.5 Gallons in each.) While the mash is converting, I heat the sparge water to about 180ish F. When the mash is finished and drained, I dump in my water for the first sparge and stir. I let it set for about 5 - 10 min and then drain. Then I repeat for the second sparge.

Keep trying you'll figure it out. Hope this helps.

How are you calculating how many gallons go into your kettle? I always struggle with this as mine has no markings on it. Do you mark up the outside or do you have a way to judge it on the inside?

 

[archiefl98]

Mark your stirring spoon/paddle in 1 or 1/2 gallon increments.

I used a hole punch to make dimples on my stainless spoon. Filled up the kettle 1/2 gallon at a time and made a dimple. One dimple = 1/2 gallon mark, two dimples in a line = 1 gallon mark. Gets me close enough to the half gallon measurement.

 

[dragonlor20]

Mark your stirring spoon/paddle in 1 or 1/2 gallon increments.

I used a hole punch to make dimples on my stainless spoon. Filled up the kettle 1/2 gallon at a time and made a dimple. One dimple = 1/2 gallon mark, two dimples in a line = 1 gallon mark. Gets me close enough to the half gallon measurement.

That's a really great idea. Thanks for that, I will definite do that before the next brew (this weekend! ).

 

[david_42]

Consider running the grain through the mill twice, since you don't have control over the gap.

 

[Frank99]

I did about a half dozen AG batches and got consitently only 65% efficiency.
I made some changes and now get 78-80% (no issues w/crush as I use my own BC set at 30). I made the following changes:
Added 5.2 PH stablizer, increased my mash water from 1.25 qt/lb to 1.50, tripled my sparge time (1/2 hour to 1 1/2 hour-drip, drip, drip...), increase the sparge water to 175 deg + put aluminum foil over the sparge tank to trap the heat + mix every 20 minutes during the mash. Hope this helps.

 

[groosh]

1/2 hour sparge time?

Not trying to threadjack here but I am wondering if I am doing something wrong myself.

I mash for an hour. Then I batch sparge at 170-175 for about 10 minutes (usually twice to get the desired amount of liquid.)

My efficiency is a little low but I just chalked that up to grinding at LHBS.

 

[kornbread]

1/2 hour sparge time?

Not trying to threadjack here but I am wondering if I am doing something wrong myself.

I believe that when you hear people refer to sparge times they are talking about fly sparging. Just like you, I batch sparge and I leave the water in for 10 min but, I try not to get above 170F. You don't want tannins to be extracted from the grain husks.

 

[Bobby_M]

Frankly this conversation should be put on hold until the OP tries again with stirring. You can't batch sparge and not stir.

 

[Frank99]

Yes, to clarify, I was referring to fly sparging. I totally agree that you need to be sure to stir thoroughly. There can be many cold/hot spots in there as I've witnessed this when stirring and having my electric probe submerged and watching the temp jump around.

 

[dragonlor20]

Frankly this conversation should be put on hold until the OP tries again with stirring. You can't batch sparge and not stir.

...which I plan to do tomorrow... So here are the changes I will make based on this thread:

1) I will stir both when mashing in and every 20 minutes or so during the mash
2) I will slow down my lauter into the kettle
3) I will probably run the grains through twice as suggested just to be safe
4) Boil more vigorously

If this doesn't yield the results I want, then:

1) Decrease mash water slightly
2) Add 5.2 stabilizer
3) Consider altering MLT manifold to circular shape

Hopefully that should do it! Thanks for all of your help!

 

[dragonlor20]

In the middle of the brew now, struggling to hold temps while stirring, so I have to continue adding water to adjust my temp. 153 seems to be a phantom temperature right now for me! However, I can tell already that my problem was not stirring as this mash is so much thicker and stickier. Glad I used a starter for this one because I am pretty sure my OG is going to be up there! More to come...

UPDATE: The stir was definitely my problem! I had 66.7% efficiency in this run using nothing different other than stirring. Against Edwort's recipe I was supposed to get 1.052 OG and I got a 1.056 (I increased all grains by 10%). Also, I should note that the LHBS did some work on their grain mill and showed me how to use their electric mill, so maybe that helped as well. Good to know that my setup is not the problem! Looking forward to this one in 10 days!