Using wood for a control box.. Smart or Dumb

[BrokenHorn]

Careful with asking the insurance company. Once you ask, and if they document it in your file, you can't claim ignorance if something does happen. They probably won't know much about what your asking and will avoid a yes or no response. My guess is they would recommend using common practice and to have it inspected by an electrician.

Personally, I would mount it on its own movable stand and keep it a couple feet away from walls and such when using it. Then if it does somehow torch itself, it ends up being a pile of ashes on your garage floor or driveway without collateral damage.

 

[aking]

I was looking at this yesterday and this guy thought it was doable.

http://m.instructables.com/id/Electric-Brewery-Control-Panel-on-the-Cheap/all/

 

[atoughram]

I didn't get my control panel UL listed. Did you?

Me neither...

 

[z-bob]

I was looking at this yesterday and this guy thought it was doable.

http://m.instructables.com/id/Electric-Brewery-Control-Panel-on-the-Cheap/all/

I don't like that he only uses 1/8" plywood. If one of the SSR does flame-out, you want something thicker to contain it. (I didn't read the whole thing, maybe he does use 1/2" ply or solid wood for the back and sides.)

 

[maierhof]

I didn't get my control panel UL listed. Did you?

Me neither...

lmao

 

[BayerischBier]

I would go with the traditional way of "electrical box" and not with wood just because of caution and safety reasons --> ground!

The only reason why you could use wood, especially oak, is when you only wanna brew oak-aged beers.

Or, just use a few shiny panels on top of a regular UL rated enclosure? Inside the $x metal box and outside the mahogany panel? But how likes mahogany beers anyway? :fro:

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

If you do the wiring correctly you could make the box out of card board. Of course you couldn't sell it or manufacture them that way for friends. But we are not talking about that. There is absolutely no advantage to using a metal enclosure in a non industrial setting. A flame out of a SSR - simple answer don't use crap parts. My 4500 watt element doesn't even cause the SSR to get the heat sink warm and it brings my 1/2 barrel BK to a boil in minutes. Plastic/composites are surpassing metal as the enclosure of choice. You run a greater risk of a short with a metal enclosure and poorly cut opening than you do with a jagged plastic or wood edge. Frankly if we were to listen to engineers no one would under take the task of building your own controller. Careful assembly, good parts, no screwing around with tapping different legs from multiple out lets for a 220 setup and you'll be fine. Treat electricity like you would a loaded gun - they both can kill you.

 

[RussPDX]

If you do the wiring correctly you could make the box out of card board. Of course you couldn't sell it or manufacture them that way for friends. But we are not talking about that. There is absolutely no advantage to using a metal enclosure in a non industrial setting. A flame out of a SSR - simple answer don't use crap parts. My 4500 watt element doesn't even cause the SSR to get the heat sink warm and it brings my 1/2 barrel BK to a boil in minutes. Plastic/composites are surpassing metal as the enclosure of choice. You run a greater risk of a short with a metal enclosure and poorly cut opening than you do with a jagged plastic or wood edge. Frankly if we were to listen to engineers no one would under take the task of building your own controller. Careful assembly, good parts, no screwing around with tapping different legs from multiple out lets for a 220 setup and you'll be fine. Treat electricity like you would a loaded gun - they both can kill you.

That makes total sense to me. There were early comments about if you are going to use wood then you are probably cutting other corners and at just is not the case. I have a dedicated 220V circuit for my dryer and plan on using a spa panel for GFCI inline, bought parts from auberins and am ready to rock.

 

[augiedoggy]

That makes total sense to me. There were early comments about if you are going to use wood then you are probably cutting other corners and at just is not the case. I have a dedicated 220V circuit for my dryer and plan on using a spa panel for GFCI inline, bought parts from auberins and am ready to rock.

Well there you go... instead of buying those parts from auberins Whos buys everything from china and triples the price to resell it as a distributor (except the pids they make) you could have bought the stuff from a supplier on amazon or ebay and saved $100-$200 bucks... and yes we are talking about the same exact parts made in the same factories... Those switches are $3-$10 a piece elsewhere depending on which ones you got from them, their ssr,s are only $15 a piece online and the RTD probes are 1/3 the price with free shipping... yet you spent the extra money only to put it all in a Wooden box? just because you spent more money doesnt make the wooden enclosure any better of a choice in itself because a lot of people here just dont know any better and feel they have to buy the stuff from them for help and "support". And you are one of the exceptions here as most will agree that they considered or used wood just to cut cornerrs to save $

I dont know how someone could say theres absolutely no advantage with going with an electrical enclosure vs homemade wooded box... there are lots of advantages,
first off your insurance company WILL void your claim if something were to go wrong, they wont even consider it was safely made to code. because that proves it isnt plain and simple.

Second, it IS MORE FIREPROOF therefore =safer is something goes wrong...

I use a plastic box which I'll be the first to say is not AS SAFE as a metal enclosure... is a metal enclosure needed ,No can wood work ,yes But lets not kid ourselves here. Wood will not perform to the same standards as using a real electrical enclosure or as least something that doesnt absorb moisture / dry out and burn. I'm lazy ad cheap so I used a $30 plastic enclosure... I often wish I had spent the coin for a real box but I dred drilling all the holes and cutting the metal... But I'm not going to say that my plastic box is equal in every way to a metal one.

For most here its a cheap homemade solution no matter how much you want to justify it.

Do you see ANY modern electrical devices that come in a wooden cabinet without being self contained with additional protection inside??
NO! and you wont....You used to, but not anymore, because History has already shown that its not the way to go... These are 240v (usually) appliances made with components DESIGNED FOR USE in an industrial application so yeah mounting them in the type of enclose they were designed, tested and rated for kind of makes more sense than an old cigar box or wine crate...

I guess I'm the only one who understood the UL listed comment was used to imply you will never see a wooded control panel of this type that would or could be ul listed because it simply not safe enough for them to certify period!if If was you would see commercially available high end mahogany computer cases and such...think about it.
Wood will work but its not as well suited as other substrates for this.
I used to see homemade wooden salt water reef tanks (with glass fronts) when I spent time in the reef forums, sure they work but they sure had disadvantages over all glass or plexi.. they were built to save money though.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Well there you go... instead of buying those parts from auberins Whos buys everything from china and triples the price to resell it as a distributor (except the pids they make) you could have bought the stuff from a supplier on amazon or ebay and saved $100-$200 bucks... and yes we are talking about the same exact parts made in the same factories...
I dont know how someone could say theres absolutely no advantage with going with an electrical enclosure vs homemade wooded box... there are lots of advantages,
first off your insurance company WILL void your claim if something were to go wrong, they wont even consider it was safely made to code. because that proves it isnt plain and simple.

Second, it IS MORE FIREPROOF therefore =safer is something goes wrong...

I use a plastic box which I'll be the first to say is not AS SAFE as a metal enclosure... is a metal enclosure needed ,No can wood work ,yes But lets not kid ourselves here. Wood will not perform to the same standards as using a real electrical enclosure or as least something that doesnt absorb moisture / dry out and burn. I'm lazy ad cheap so I used a $30 plastic enclosure... I often wish I had spent the coin for a real box but I dred drilling all the holes and cutting the metal... But I'm not going to say that my plastic box is equal in every way to a metal one.

For most here its a cheap homemade solution no matter how much you want to justify it.

Do you see ANY modern electrical devices that come in a wooden cabinet without being self contained with additional protection inside??
NO! and you wont....You used to, but not anymore, because History has already shown that its not the way to go... These are 240v (usually) appliances made with components DESIGNED FOR USE in an industrial application so yeah mounting them in the type of enclose they were designed, tested and rated for kind of makes more sense than an old cigar box or wine crate...

I guess I'm the only one who understood the UL listed comment was used to imply you will never see a wooded control panel of this type that would or could be ul listed because it simply not safe enough for them to certify period!

OK, if you want to be technical you raise valid issues, to a point. Wood is not a normal electrical material - I think we all know that. It is easy to work with that simple. Myself, I use a re-tasked heavy plastic Makita tool case for 2 reasons. 1) I had it and 2) it was easy to cut for PID's. It was to be my mockup because after building it I decided I didn't like the layout and was able to change it easily. I have revised it several times to the point where I actually replaced the front panel with a steel plate with what I thought was my final revision. Wrong.

As for ul listed, that and a $2.50 will get you a coffee. I can't even begin to count how many UL listed devices and cords I have had short out and be potential fire hazards. The insurance comment is irrelevant, UL enclosure or not won't make a difference, it's the license of the installer that really matters. This is DIY for home brewing, not commercial grade equipment. There is a difference. With me it's not about cutting corners, it's about getting creative. As to Auberins, a few extra dollars is fine if I can get support easier.

 

[augiedoggy]

OK, if you want to be technical you raise valid issues, to a point. Wood is not a normal electrical material - I think we all know that. It is easy to work with that simple. Myself, I use a re-tasked heavy plastic Makita tool case for 2 reasons. 1) I had it and 2) it was easy to cut for PID's. It was to be my mockup because after building it I decided I didn't like the layout and was able to change it easily. I have revised it several times to the point where I actually replaced the front panel with a steel plate with what I thought was my final revision. Wrong.

As for ul listed, that and a $2.50 will get you a coffee. I can't even begin to count how many UL listed devices and cords I have had short out and be potential fire hazards. The insurance comment is irrelevant, UL enclosure or not won't make a difference, it's the license of the installer that really matters. This is DIY for home brewing, not commercial grade equipment. There is a difference. With me it's not about cutting corners, it's about getting creative. As to Auberins, a few extra dollars is fine if I can get support easier.

But it is made of commercial use ssr's,pids and switches designed for commercial grade enclosures thats my point, when these things were designed contact with wood was not considered, they were designed with the notion that they would be in an enclosure approved for them...

These types of components,devices are not designed with a homebrewer (or home use) in mind... Just because they are installed and being used in a home doesnt change the nature of what they were designed and built for and those requirements should be taken into account unless common sense proves its unnecessary,
I repair large commercial imaging equipment and if I brought one home to print in my basement that doesnt mean that its now a home appliance and subject to new precautions?

I have had no issues with support... I had one issue with a faulty 24v powersupply and the ebay seller 2nd aired a free replacement with no questions asked... as for a switch,ssr or three wire color coded sensor what kind of support do you really need? you could buy two or three of everything and have extras if there was a problem and still come out ahead. With those kind of prices your almost better off paying someone else to build it and really support it. Especially if you feel you need to pay someone to show you how to install it. there is endless amount of directions, diagrams/schematics and places like this one which are here for support...

In any case paying all that money through aubrins and using a wooded box is like overpaying for expensive hyped up "monstercables" for your bargain basement low power/ quality hometheater system... its just not practical IMHO.
I have no love for the politics and money making practices that have evolved from what started out with good intentions (electrical approval boards) but like government they are still useful in some cases for weeding out potential unsafe conditions and they do perform testing (I hope!) besides being paid to come to these conclusions so...

 

[passedpawn]

Regarding a wooden box, not me.

I was working on a ckt board only 2 days ago and watched a yellow tantulum capacitor burst into flame. It was literally on fire, with a nice 3/4" flame above it. Burned for about 3 seconds before I blew it out. WTH, I would have thought that material wouldn't burn like that. I had accidentally shorted the board to a live (but only 24VDC) wire on my workbench. I've had other fires just like that. Even my own electrical brewing panel burned up pretty bad due to a loose connection on a terminal strip on the 240V rail.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Ive done lots of torch down roofing with a full throttle flame on plywood.It just browns the wood.Id think it takes a lot to start and sustain the wood burning. Then again how many house fires are there a year. I thought of it and didn't just because I didn't want to jinks myself.
So I made it out of a blastic box :cross:

 

[RussPDX]

I was under the impression from many threads here that Auberins was better quality.... Maybe I asked the wrong initial question....

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Regarding a wooden box, not me.

I was working on a ckt board only 2 days ago and watched a yellow tantulum capacitor burst into flame. It was literally on fire, with a nice 3/4" flame above it. Burned for about 3 seconds before I blew it out. WTH, I would have thought that material wouldn't burn like that. I had accidentally shorted the board to a live (but only 24VDC) wire on my workbench. I've had other fires just like that. Even my own electrical brewing panel burned up pretty bad due to a loose connection on a terminal strip on the 240V rail.

Mental note: No panels from passedpawn. Check.

 

[z-bob]

So do you think a wooden box would catch fire and a plastic one wouldn't? (that's kind of a trick question, it depends on the plastic)

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but in a building fire, wooden structural members do not fail as quickly as steel.

IMHO, the reason you don't see much wooden-chassis electrical equipment is because wood cannot be stamped or injection molded -- so it's not well suited for mass production. You do still see wood used for musical stage equipment (amplifiers and such), and those as subject to pretty harsh treatment.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Use the fire retardant pressure treated. Problem solved. Everyone gets a woody.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

So do you think a wooden box would catch fire and a plastic one wouldn't? (that's kind of a trick question, it depends on the plastic)

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but in a building fire, wooden structural members do not fail as quickly as steel.

IMHO, the reason you don't see much wooden-chassis electrical equipment is because wood cannot be stamped or injection molded -- so it's not well suited for mass production. You do still see wood used for musical stage equipment (amplifiers and such), and those as subject to pretty harsh treatment.

This. I had a 1000watt powerd subwoofer. Box was made of everyday medium density fiberboard. You ever see that stuff burn? I actually use pieces for firestarters.

At the end of the subs life the power supply failed dramatically. Scorched the inside of the cabinet really badly.

 

[trimixdiver1]

The fact of the matter, no matter how you guys keep trying to justify its use, wood is not an acceptable enclosure for a Homebrewer. PERIOD. Your not going to change anyone's mind on that. If still think it's safe then have at it. Just don't get upset when one of us says "I told ya so!". It's really not hard to do the safe thing, just look at your service panel, why is it designed the way it is? Why is it as big as it is? Why do you have to follow special procedures when using Al wire? Why does your panel need to be inspected before its used?

These are all valid questions, and they do apply to your house and industry. If you can't answer them then you have no business thinking using wood as a enclosure to contain a fire is a safe practice. Yes it's there to contain a fire.

Just spend the damn money and do it right already!!!!

 

[passedpawn]

I was under the impression from many threads here that Auberins was better quality.... Maybe I asked the wrong initial question....

Nope. I had a 2352 stop recognizing the RTD. I replaced it, and took apart the one that wasn't working. It was a terrible looking set of chinese ckt boards in there. Quite a kludge really. Very low-budget.

Also, the graphic membrane will wear out, crack, and expose the buttons underneath. Nobody puts a membrane like that right over buttons without a dome or carbon puck or something. It's designed to fail.

I had left my control panel outdoors for a month, on a patio. There was corrosion inside the Auberins PID that apparently resulted in a short ckt or something. Also, the terminal screws were rusting. My fault I suppose. My point is that although they do work, they are cheaply-made products. I did by another one though

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

But it is made of commercial use ssr's,pids and switches designed for commercial grade enclosures thats my point, when these things were designed contact with wood was not considered, they were designed with the notion that they would be in an enclosure approved for them...

These $36.00 PID's and $15.00 or less SSR's are nowhere even close to being commercial grade, or change that to industrial grade components. These are light duty imitations. Heavy duty PID's can cost over $300. each. These components do the job but you get what you pay for and we aren't paying much. PID's are plastic cased, SSR's are meant to mounted to heat sinks. What you mount the plastic component in or heat sink too is really not the point. We are really just splitting hairs here.

 

[z-bob]

The fact of the matter, no matter how you guys keep trying to justify its use, wood is not an acceptable enclosure for a Homebrewer. PERIOD. Your not going to change anyone's mind on that. If still think it's safe then have at it. Just don't get upset when one of us says "I told ya so!". It's really not hard to do the safe thing, just look at your service panel, why is it designed the way it is? Why is it as big as it is? Why do you have to follow special procedures when using Al wire? Why does your panel need to be inspected before its used?

These are all valid questions, and they do apply to your house and industry. If you can't answer them then you have no business thinking using wood as a enclosure to contain a fire is a safe practice. Yes it's there to contain a fire.

Just spend the damn money and do it right already!!!!

I think the problem is, you're not the final arbiter of of what's acceptable or not. That responsibility falls on individual. I really don't care what materials one uses, as long as it's an informed decision.

 

[user 163849]

The fact of the matter, no matter how you guys keep trying to justify its use, wood is not an acceptable enclosure for a Homebrewer. PERIOD. Your not going to change anyone's mind on that. If still think it's safe then have at it. Just don't get upset when one of us says "I told ya so!". It's really not hard to do the safe thing, just look at your service panel, why is it designed the way it is? Why is it as big as it is? Why do you have to follow special procedures when using Al wire? Why does your panel need to be inspected before its used?

These are all valid questions, and they do apply to your house and industry. If you can't answer them then you have no business thinking using wood as a enclosure to contain a fire is a safe practice. Yes it's there to contain a fire.

Just spend the damn money and do it right already!!!!

Despite your high opinion of yourself, your authority/superior intelligence here is purely an object of your own imagination.

Constantly referring to those who disagree with you as stupid and/or cheap asses only widens the gap between you and credibility.

PERIOD

 

[BrokenHorn]

Man this is a HOT topic... Get it?

I think the problem is, you're not the final arbiter of of what's acceptable or not. That responsibility falls on individual. I really don't care what materials one uses, as long as it's an informed decision.

Who said he was the final arbitrator? He didn't... I think he was merely stating his opinion based on his experience so the OP could make an informed decision. And I believe most people that work with electricity on a daily basis would agree with him due to safety concerns, but that is my opinion.

Despite your high opinion of yourself, your authority/superior intelligence here is purely an object of your own imagination.



Constantly referring to those who disagree with you as stupid and/or cheap asses only widens the gap between you and credibility.



PERIOD

Again, I never saw him say he is smarter than everyone else or claimed to be the authoritative figure in this forum, but maybe he does have the experience to give an informed opinion.

Please quote where he called someone dumb or a cheap ass... He said that he thought it was a dumb and this is somewhere where you shouldn't be cheap, but those are his opinion and he didn't attack the OP (like you did him)...



I only gave my OPINION here because I didn't think the unwarranted emotional responses were necessary. Now blast away at me too...

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Man this is a HOT topic... Get it?

My only argument here would be that of high'er end audio electronics in which wooden casing is a mark of luxury, and, as mentioned before much of the amplifier industry houses their top ends in wooden enclosures, ex Peavy etc..

But he specifically said wood not good for homebrewer so, meh.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Despite your high opinion of yourself, your authority/superior intelligence here is purely an object of your own imagination.



Constantly referring to those who disagree with you as stupid and/or cheap asses only widens the gap between you and credibility.



PERIOD

I really think you have some issues of your own. Wow

 

[BayerischBier]

we still talking WOOD?
knock knock......

 

[LandoLincoln]

Look, I think we can all agree that you will likely die a fiery death if you even consider making a control panel out of wood, even though there is no evidence to show that there is any real danger of a fire happening because of said wood and a spark created by a short. The survivors of your demise won't get to claim any insurance either, since you didn't use metal and didn't get your control panel UL listed like all responsible electric brewers do.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Look, I think we can all agree that you will likely die a fiery death if you even consider making a control panel out of wood, even though there is no evidence to show that there is any real danger of a fire happening because of said wood and a spark created by a short. The survivors of your demise won't get to claim any insurance either, since you didn't use metal and didn't get your control panel UL listed like all responsible electric brewers do.

What this guys says, you know the guy who used open flame propane burners on a wooden brewstand for years.

 

[LandoLincoln]

What this guys says, you know the guy who used open flame propane burners on a wooden brewstand for years.

I swear to God, my brew stand burned down because my brew buddy is a smoker!