Use fermenter as keg: possible?

[Cider Wraith]

I've heard two different definitions for the use of pressure valves, first ordinary pressure fermenting as a flavor modulater, second "spunding" referring to self carbonation - possibly only applied at close to the end of fermentation. I use "pressure fermenting" to refer to everything.

My guess as to why refrigerating and serving a not-fully-fermented product wouldn't work for beer is that you beer drinkers might not like that much variation in your end products, but ciders can probably happily tolerate a wider range of variables

 

[moreb33rplz]

If minimal effort is the goal (and a worthy one which I fully support), imo the move is to ferment and serve in the same keg, and hook it up to gas after fermentation is complete

I'm biased tho cuz that's what I do, but after 18 years of brewing I've found it to be the easiest way, for me, to still produce top notch b33rz

Flat beer sucks. Unless you bottle or use store bought CO2 yer gonna have flat beer. Gross

 

[mac_1103]

Flat beer sucks. Unless you bottle or use store bought CO2 yer gonna have flat beer.

Well, you can spund or prime in the keg so you only need store bought CO2 for serving.

So then, to sum up...

Use fermenter as keg: possible? Yes.
Use keg as fermenter: better? Absolutely.

 

[TomSellers]

I'm pretty much stubborn about not using force-injected CO2.

If you need to create some pressure in a tank with air, a pressurized portable air tank can be converted with a ball lock on it as so:

Or, a bicycle pump can be converted by putting a ball lock on it:

 

[Anti-Hoppist]

So in these days I learnt a lot of things and words, help me clarify.

I can keg, prime with sugar, and (resign to) use a minimum amount of store bought CO2 to keep the beer carbonated. Is this achieved through a spunding valve? That acts like a breather for a cask?
You probably already told me this, but consider that I didn't know what a spunding valve was until yesterday.

 

[mac_1103]

So in these days I learnt a lot of things and words, help me clarify.

I can keg, prime with sugar, and (resign to) use a minimum amount of store bought CO2 to keep the beer carbonated. Is this achieved through a spunding valve?

I think priming in a keg should be achievable even without a spunding valve. But there are plenty of folks around here who have much more experience with this than I do.

Search the forums for those key words. You'll learn even more things and words, and might find that it's already been clarified.

 

[Anti-Hoppist]

I think priming in a keg should be achievable even without a spunding valve. But there are plenty of folks around here who have much more experience with this than I do.

Search the forums for those key words. You'll learn even more things and words, and might find that it's already been clarified.

No I mean, the constant CO2 level Is done with a spunding valve? Or maybe I should get a LPG regulator for that

 

[shoengine]

So in these days I learnt a lot of things and words, help me clarify.

I can keg, prime with sugar, and (resign to) use a minimum amount of store bought CO2 to keep the beer carbonated. Is this achieved through a spunding valve? That acts like a breather for a cask?
You probably already told me this, but consider that I didn't know what a spunding valve was until yesterday.

A spunding valve is for spunding. It's like a pressure release valve that you can dial in a specific pressure to release, whereas PRVs are specific safety devices based on the vessel they are attached to.

Because I am sure someone will bring it up, a spunding valve IS NOT a safety device and you still need a PRV on pressure vessels.

 

[shoengine]

No I mean, the constant CO2 level Is done with a spunding valve? Or maybe I should get a LPG regulator for that

If you are using a CO2 tank, you'd use a regulator that is set to a specific pressure, so you don't try to push 600 PSI from your tank.

 

[mac_1103]

No I mean, the constant CO2 level Is done with a spunding valve?

Like the man said, a spunding valve is for spunding. It let's you set a maximum pressure level in the vessel during fermentation.

I just meant to say that priming in a keg and spunding aren't necessarily the same thing. Priming in the keg is just like bottling in a very big bottle. You wait until final gravity is reached and then add enough sugar to produce the desired level of carbonation.

 

[Anti-Hoppist]

Like the man said, a spunding valve is for spunding
I just meant to say that priming in a keg and spunding aren't necessarily the same thing. Priming in the keg is just like bottling in a very big bottle. You wait until final gravity is reached and then add enough sugar to produce the desired level of carbonation.

Yes, I misinterpreted what a spunding valve is

 

[day_trippr]

Or maybe I should get a LPG regulator for that

An LPG regulator is indeed an appropriate mechanism for a "nearly" cask ale dispensing system as its nominal 0.4 psi is enough to help motivate beer out of the keg without introducing oxygen into the keg or providing much in the way of carbonation, and is waay more reliable than trying to use a conventional adjustable regulator to do the job.

I use LPG regulators in series with a primary CO2 regulator to reliably prevent cold-crash "suck-back" in my fermentors for the same reason...

Cheers!

 

[Anti-Hoppist]

Since we're here, tell me something.

I also considered gravity dispensing from the keg, but looking up online everyone says It's not possible due to the air/CO2 that should get in to let the beer out etc. and that's ok if we talk about the keg put on his side to emulate a cask.

But since corny kegs' tubes are removable and they can be stored upside down, will gravity fail if one removes the internal tubes and lets the beer drop Just by true and pure gravity?

 

[wsmith1625]

Since we're here, tell me something.

I also considered gravity dispensing from the keg, but looking up online everyone says It's not possible due to the air/CO2 that should get in to let the beer out etc. and that's ok if we talk about the keg put on his side to emulate a cask.

But since corny kegs' tubes are removable and they can be stored upside down, will gravity fail if one removes the internal tubes and lets the beer drop Just by true and pure gravity?

I don't see that working at all. As the beer leaves the keg, it will need to be replaced by air or co2, but there won't be any way for it to enter the keg. Either the beer won't flow or it will slowly glug out as air tries to enter the faucet while you pour the beer.

 

[Anti-Hoppist]

I don't see that working at all. As the beer leaves the keg, it will need to be replaced by air or co2, but there won't be any way for it to enter the keg. Either the beer won't flow or it will slowly glug out the faucet as air tries to enter as the liquid tries to escape.

But why? Mini-kegs don't use (as far as I know) nothing more then a spigot, and things fall down everyday everywhere...

 

[mac_1103]

Mini-kegs don't use (as far as I know) nothing more then a spigot, and things fall down everyday everywhere...

What mini-kegs are you talking about? Mine use CO2, as do all the one's I've seen.

 

[Anti-Hoppist]

What mini-kegs are you talking about? Mine use CO2, as do all the one's I've seen.

The tin ones, party-kegs. Do they use CO2?

 

[kgranger]

The tin ones, party-kegs. Do they use CO2?

I think you're referring to these? Mini Keg

They use a vent bung that you pull out slightly before serving. Similarly to a cask, you would need to finish it within a few days to keep the freshness.

 

[mac_1103]

They use a vent bung that you pull out slightly before serving.

IOW, you have to let air in. BTW, those can also use CO2 cartridges with the right adapter.

 

[dtashmore547]

my 2 penneth worth, I transfer my ale under pressure from my fermenter to a pet keg and serve from that at the required pressure no co2 needed, I do use a co2 bottle to keep pressure up later in the consumption but you could, if you consume quickly enough attach a second ferment via a splitter connection and spunding valve to add co2 to the brew if your timing it's good enough.

 

[Cider Wraith]

Here are three batches with the black-topped trimmed liquid tube fermenters purging servers and being pressure fermented to about 18 PSI which after refrigeration, usually drops to about 12 PSI. Shown here are gas posts to liquid posts jumpers.

The furthest back combo with the longest label is the fifth use of that yeast and not intending to reuse it won't bother to transfer to server. However, still going to leave it jumpered to it's server to pick up an additional five gallons of headspace for additional serving pressure. Shown here gas post to gas post jumper.

My guess is that will largely serve the three gallons, might lose a bit of carbonation, just free piggy-backed pressurized CO2.

Another option to run tankless would be to pressure ferment and at the height of fermentation burst up to about 30 PSI + and purge and pressurize an empty clean keg up to that PSI and then disconnect. A regulator would be nice to have but with that 30 PSI pressurized keg you've got a free tankless CO2 source. Another thought would be to either stay at 18 PSI or burst up to 30 PSI or higher and do that with three kegs daisy-chained to capture fifteen gallons of CO2 under pressure and you could guarantee that would serve a keg of beverage. In that case a regulator would be nice and for practical purposes would simulate an actual CO2 tank, I would guess.

Lots of options if you have the time, equipment, space, creativity and motivation.

 

[Cider Wraith]

Priming in the keg is just like bottling in a very big bottle.

... Yes, however to me it's easier to just buy a $29 pressure valve and avoid opening the FV and avoid having to guess how much sugar to add and hope fermentation picks up again

 

[Cider Wraith]

I use LPG regulators in series with a primary CO2 regulator

Could you please post a pic of your LPG regulator? How does it connect into the system? Would it be appropriate to dispense CO2 at about 10 PSI from a keg that was pressurized to 30 ~ 50 PSI? If not, any idea what would do that? Guess I could just buy the parts and assemble one but are they available off the shelf? Thanks -

Edit - and don't seem to be able to guess how an ordinary sounding valve could be made to perform like a regulator. They're kinda like regulators in reverse, I would seem to think

 

[day_trippr]

I have two fixed-pressure LPG "barbecue" regulators that are permanently set for 11" WC, which is roughly 0.4 psi. One is a dual-stage and pricey Marshall model (the green one below) and the other is an $8 CAMCO single-stage regulator, shown here:

I use EVAbarrier tubing exclusively for beer and gas so I put push-to-connect fittings on the regulator ins and outs so I can insert them between the dual primary regulator and each of two fridges when needed.

This is way easier and reliable than trying to set primary regulators to such a low pressure (I was always plagued with creeping when I did things that way).

Again, these are fixed pressure devices, so they're not going to be particularly useful in dispensing applications...

Cheers!

 

[Cider Wraith]

This is way easier and reliable than trying to set primary regulators to such a low pressure (I was always plagued with creeping when I did things that way).

Again, these are fixed pressure devices, so they're not going to be particularly useful in dispensing applications...

Much thanks for this generous response! Well, looks like if pursuing this would be on the search for a gas regulator than can regulate from mid-low 30 ~ 50 PSI down to about 10. And like you wrote, the creeping issue. Thanks for the reply -

 

[day_trippr]

You're very welcome

That second picture reminds me I have a ton of brewing hardware I need to off load. Along with that 10g Rubbermaid MLT with a custom fitted false bottom I have a pair of 10g Blichmann G1 kettles each with two valves, enough to do a 3 vessel gravity feed setup

Cheers!

 

[Broken Crow]

Just to throw my 2-cents in here: You live in the country that makes the finest Corny-kegs on earth;
https://www.aebkegs.com/?lang=en...If this thread has encouraged you to go as far as buying a regulator and CO2 tank, then it would be wasteful not to look at the product of your own country: Homepage - AEB Kegs
Over here in Canada, they are the most expensive, but worth evry cent. I imagine they are at least a bit cheaper when bought locally. One of those will last you a lifetime of repeatable quality-in-use. If you're going to spend anything, don't waste cash on something that won't work out in the long run.......those mini-kegs, like other ideas floated here, will allow oxidation of your brew. While I Love @day_trippr 's setup and intend to try it out myself sometime when I can afford the time and cost, since you're still only over a week or so past you're first brew, do yourself the favour of going through the time-tested practices that include gear that will endure. Just bottle that first brew and plan your expansion for the next one mindfully, especially as you are doing by asking on here, but take your time and think it all through carefully.