Unusual "American" Sweet Stout Recipe Critique

[TheMadKing]

Bread-Dead-Revolver Stout
Sweet Stout (16 A)
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.30 gal
Boil Size: 6.92 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 5.62 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5.20 gal
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Total Water Needed: 7.76 gal

Mash Ingredients

8.5 lbs Munich Malt
1.0 lbs Barley, Flaked
0.75 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
0.5 lb Chocolate Malt
0.5 lb Roasted Barley
0.5 lb Carafa II
0.25 lb Honey Malt

Mash at 156F for 60 minutes

Hops
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 26.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min 9.4 IBUs

Adjuncts
8.0 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) [Boil for 10 min]

Yeast
US-05


Ok, so my first thing is: I know the grain bill looks a little convoluted, but I have a reason for everything in there. I'll explain my reasoning, and if you think I'm off base with any of them please let me know your recommendation. I also don't like super roasty stouts and prefer the flavor to be full like an espresso roasted coffee bean, not burnt, like a french roasted coffee bean.

-I have 30 lbs of munich to use up, and I've read that a munich based sweet stout is really nice, so I'm giving that a shot.
-Flaked barley because I love the mouthfeel it adds
-Crystal 60 for head retention and a little more sweetness
-Chocolate malt for color and chocolate character
-roasted barley for color and because it's not a stout without it
-Carafa II for a little more color without added bitterness
-Honey malt to add a little malt complexity to the sweetness of the lactose.

-American hops because I love the way Simcoe works in a roasty beer and warrior is a convenient high AA bittering charge.

All thoughts and comments welcome!

 

[Redlantern]

I am going to watch the results here.

Not a critique - but curiosity. This is gonna be a monster flavor-wise and I want to know how it turns out. This is very intriguing. Malt and mouth-feel will be huge. Bet this will be extra chewy. These are good things!

After all that work, why not go with an Irish ale yeast instead of US-05?

 

[TheMadKing]

I am going to watch the results here.

Not a critique - but curiosity. This is gonna be a monster flavor-wise and I want to know how it turns out. This is very intriguing. Malt and mouth-feel will be huge. Bet this will be extra chewy. These are good things!

After all that work, why not go with an Irish ale yeast instead of US-05?

Thanks! Three reasons for the yeast choice,

1 - I don't have time to make a starter from a liquid yeast
2 - I kinda like the idea of Americanizing the sweet stout a bit more, and why not use the quintessential american ale yeast strain?
3 - I don't want any yeast character in this beer. As you stated, there's a lot going on with this thing as-is, so yeast character might detract from the overall impression. US-05 is a good clean fermentation that will get the job done.

 

[stpug]

Quantity of malt to batch size, cara malts, flaked barley, lactose, dextrin sugars created during mash will all contribute to the body and mouthfeel of this beer. From the looks of it, this should produce a nice full mouthfeel - appropriate for the style from my perspective.

In regards to roast malts to achieve a "not super roasty stout": You seem to be on the upper end of roast malts with 12.5%. I would drop that to ~10% (i.e. lose about 4 oz of roast malts), but deciding which malts to reduce is variable depending on the maltsters you're planning on using (ignoring Carafa II for the moment). UK roasted barley is very roasted, to the point of ashy. Most UK chocolate malts are nearly the same level as roasted barley - very roasted. Briess roasted barley is very roasted, but stops short of ashy. Briess chocolate malt is the quintessential chocolate-inspiring malt that both brings forth the classic chocolate aromas and stops well short of burnt and ashy; in addition to it's light roast color. So, if you're using UK maltsters for your roasted malts then I would drop the 4 oz off of those, and I would probably drop it right off of roasted barley to leave you with 4 oz total, or you could take 2 oz off each UK choc and UK RB. If you're using Briess for your roasted malts then I would take the 4 oz off of the roasted barley. This will bring you down to about the 10% roasted malt level that should be plenty for a sweet stout yet stop well short of being overly roasty. If you're set on 12.5% roasted malts then you could simply up your Carafa II by 4 oz and drop one/both of the other roasts in proportion. If you're set on a 12lb grainbill then you could reduce the roasts by 4 oz and up your cara malt to 1 lb (I think you could use this anyway because 0.75lb in a sweet stout is a little on the skimpy side). All of this is just to say, you might consider reducing your roast malts and putting the extra elsewhere so you don't venture into 'super roasty' territory.

Finally, I don't like the yeast choice for a malt-focused beer. (IMO) US05, in particular, has a tendency to really subdue malt character and sweetness - to the point of excess. This is a great trait for some beer styles, but not a stout. While I'm sure the final beer would fall solidly in the stout realm of things, I think you'll not gain the level of maltiness (and sweetness) that you would using a different yeast strain. I believe that this same beer brewed with a yeast strain that does not strip away any malt character would come in a totally different class. My suggestion - considering you want easy, dry yeast - would be to try Lallemand/Danstar London ESB dry yeast. You would have to change your mash temp to about 147 F (max) for 90 minutes due to the yeast's inability to ferment maltotriose, but the resulting beer would be full of malty richness, residual sweetness, additional body, and complimenting yeast qualities (subtle but present).

 

[TheMadKing]

Quantity of malt to batch size, cara malts, flaked barley, lactose, dextrin sugars created during mash will all contribute to the body and mouthfeel of this beer. From the looks of it, this should produce a nice full mouthfeel - appropriate for the style from my perspective.

In regards to roast malts to achieve a "not super roasty stout": You seem to be on the upper end of roast malts with 12.5%. I would drop that to ~10% (i.e. lose about 4 oz of roast malts), but deciding which malts to reduce is variable depending on the maltsters you're planning on using (ignoring Carafa II for the moment). UK roasted barley is very roasted, to the point of ashy. Most UK chocolate malts are nearly the same level as roasted barley - very roasted. Briess roasted barley is very roasted, but stops short of ashy. Briess chocolate malt is the quintessential chocolate-inspiring malt that both brings forth the classic chocolate aromas and stops well short of burnt and ashy; in addition to it's light roast color. So, if you're using UK maltsters for your roasted malts then I would drop the 4 oz off of those, and I would probably drop it right off of roasted barley to leave you with 4 oz total, or you could take 2 oz off each UK choc and UK RB. If you're using Briess for your roasted malts then I would take the 4 oz off of the roasted barley. This will bring you down to about the 10% roasted malt level that should be plenty for a sweet stout yet stop well short of being overly roasty. If you're set on 12.5% roasted malts then you could simply up your Carafa II by 4 oz and drop one/both of the other roasts in proportion. If you're set on a 12lb grainbill then you could reduce the roasts by 4 oz and up your cara malt to 1 lb (I think you could use this anyway because 0.75lb in a sweet stout is a little on the skimpy side). All of this is just to say, you might consider reducing your roast malts and putting the extra elsewhere so you don't venture into 'super roasty' territory.

Finally, I don't like the yeast choice for a malt-focused beer. (IMO) US05, in particular, has a tendency to really subdue malt character and sweetness - to the point of excess. This is a great trait for some beer styles, but not a stout. While I'm sure the final beer would fall solidly in the stout realm of things, I think you'll not gain the level of maltiness (and sweetness) that you would using a different yeast strain. I believe that this same beer brewed with a yeast strain that does not strip away any malt character would come in a totally different class. My suggestion - considering you want easy, dry yeast - would be to try Lallemand/Danstar London ESB dry yeast. You would have to change your mash temp to about 147 F (max) for 90 minutes due to the yeast's inability to ferment maltotriose, but the resulting beer would be full of malty richness, residual sweetness, additional body, and complimenting yeast qualities (subtle but present).

Awesome feedback thanks! I'm using Briess mostly, so I will follow your recommendation to reduce the roasted barley by 4 oz, I'm not set on any grain amounts so that works for me. I didn't know there was that much difference between US and UK roasted malt, thats good to know!

I'll definitely look into that yeast, it's not one I've used. I just don't want it to underattenuate since I'm artificially adding so much sweetness that any residual sweetness from the base malts might end up overpowering. You don't think the ESB yeast will do that?

 

[stpug]

I'll definitely look into that yeast, it's not one I've used. I just don't want it to underattenuate since I'm artificially adding so much sweetness that any residual sweetness from the base malts might end up overpowering. You don't think the ESB yeast will do that?

It's a (again) new strain to the homebrew market but my understanding is that it has been around for many years for commercial brewers. I say "again" because it used to be an offering from them, and then they took it away, and now they're offering it again.

It definitely has the potential to attenuate low (67-70% is typical). I've loved the beers I've produced with this yeast (which includes an oatmeal stout), but you need to keep this strain in mind and brew for attenuation. Super-low mash temps to create highly fermentable worts and/or simple sugars are highly recommended when using this yeast. The more fermentable the wort and the less maltotriose it contains, the more this strain will be able to attenuate. The plus side of this lower attenuation is the body that is left behind (dextrins) and/or created by the yeast (glycerols), in addition to the malt "enhancement" characteristic (or rather, malt-retaining tendency).

You can ferment fairly warm 68-72 for the duration. In fact, I ferment at 68F for 24 hours and then bring upstairs where it sits at room temperature for the remainder (70-73F). This yeast is VERY fast to ferment which is why I only control it's temperature for 24 hours at 68F (it's nearly done at this point), and then I let it finish up at room temperature since it doesn't have much exothermic heat generating energy left. Keep it there for another 4 days, and it's done. You may want to cold crash to assist in dropping the yeast. It's slightly powdery so an extended crash could help (3-5 days), but in black beers you really can't see this powdery nature of the yeast.

 

[TheMadKing]

It's a (again) new strain to the homebrew market but my understanding is that it has been around for many years for commercial brewers. I say "again" because it used to be an offering from them, and then they took it away, and now they're offering it again.

It definitely has the potential to attenuate low (67-70% is typical). I've loved the beers I've produced with this yeast (which includes an oatmeal stout), but you need to keep this strain in mind and brew for attenuation. Super-low mash temps to create highly fermentable worts and/or simple sugars are highly recommended when using this yeast. The more fermentable the wort and the less maltotriose it contains, the more this strain will be able to attenuate. The plus side of this lower attenuation is the body that is left behind (dextrins) and/or created by the yeast (glycerols), in addition to the malt "enhancement" characteristic (or rather, malt-retaining tendency).

You can ferment fairly warm 68-72 for the duration. In fact, I ferment at 68F for 24 hours and then bring upstairs where it sits at room temperature for the remainder (70-73F). This yeast is VERY fast to ferment which is why I only control it's temperature for 24 hours at 68F (it's nearly done at this point), and then I let it finish up at room temperature since it doesn't have much exothermic heat generating energy left. Keep it there for another 4 days, and it's done. You may want to cold crash to assist in dropping the yeast. It's slightly powdery so an extended crash could help (3-5 days), but in black beers you really can't see this powdery nature of the yeast.

Well I'm sold! Beersmith is estimating a FG 1.015 with a mash temp of 149F, which is right in the ballpark of where I'd like to be (1.013 - 1.020). I'll go ahead and give it a shot. Luckily my LHBS actually has it in stock

Thanks again!

 

[chickypad]

You don't mention what munich malt you are using but I'd be worried about your diastatic power for the batch given you've got 30% specialty malts which have none. May want to swap out for a few lbs for something with a high DP.

 

[TheMadKing]

You don't mention what munich malt you are using but I'd be worried about your diastatic power for the batch given you've got 30% specialty malts which have none. May want to swap out for a few lbs for something with a high DP.

I'm using German Munich 9 SRM. I made a SMaSH beer with it that attenuated well, if that tells you anything, it's got the good stuff!

 

[chickypad]

Yeah but a SMaSH is different than having 30% unmalted/specialty grains that you also need to convert. I use munich pretty sparingly so no direct experience but I've seen DP listed in the 40 range, which would go along with the loose rule I see mentioned that munich can convert itself but not much else.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yeah but a SMaSH is different than having 30% unmalted/specialty grains that you also need to convert. I use munich pretty sparingly so no direct experience but I've seen DP listed in the 40 range, which would go along with the loose rule I see mentioned that munich can convert itself but not much else.

That could also be assisted by a protein rest. I've seen a number of recipes that use Munich as a case and I've never seen poor conversion reported. I'll do a protein rest and mash for 90 mins though just to be safe. Thanks!

 

[Queequeg]

Yes my first concern also was diastatic power. Do the calculation for the diastatic power of the batch and if below 40 sub a pound of munich for a pound of 2 row.

As for the roast malts, roast barley is actually sweeter than carafa II.

Dingmens debittered roast barley is excellent. It's sweet and lacks the astringency associated with husks.

I would also recommend cold steeping and cold sparging the roast grains separate.

I would also drop the simcoe, to me a milk stout is best without any flavour additions.

 

[Queequeg]

Also the only thing the munich has to convert is the flaked barley and the honey malt. Everything else can be steeped separately.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yes my first concern also was diastatic power. Do the calculation for the diastatic power of the batch and if below 40 sub a pound of munich for a pound of 2 row.

As for the roast malts, roast barley is actually sweeter than carafa II.

Dingmens debittered roast barley is excellent. It's sweet and lacks the astringency associated with husks.

I would also recommend cold steeping and cold sparging the roast grains separate.

I would also drop the simcoe, to me a milk stout is best without any flavour additions.

Already brewed but thank you!, I'll report back on how it turns out. I had 83% mash efficiency, so I don't think there were any conversion issues.

 

[Queequeg]

Good to here. Could you feedback on the final beer. I am looking at something similar soon

 

[TheMadKing]

Wow that yeast works quick.. OG if 1.059, 48 hours later no more krausen and down to 1.025, close to terminal

 

[TheMadKing]

Good to here. Could you feedback on the final beer. I am looking at something similar soon

FG has stabilized at 1.022. Body and mouthfeel are very thick, but it's hard to accurately judge without carbonation. I also think that the addition of Simcoe might have been a mistake, as was pointed out above. It's not working well with the sweetness as I had hoped. It's also not roasty enough.. I know I was going for a subdued roast character but it's barely there. I would double the roasted barley and remove the carafa II if I were brewing it again tomorrow.

I'm debating adding cocoa nibs to this or just leaving alone for awhile to see how the flavor develops. Overall, I'm not happy with the beer because of the muted roast character and the fact the hop flavor. It will probably mellow and balance with time though, so I'm not counting it out yet.

 

[Queequeg]

Yeah I did a milk stout with Mosaic, somehow the piney or berry character that you notice in pale beers doesn't come through. All that comes through is the citrus and fruit and it don't quite fit. My current thinking is not flavor hops in a milk stout. If you want aroma get if from the grains and adjuncts.

carafa never really adds much flavor imo, its great for color adjustments but compared to roast barley it doesn't really do the business. As I said dingmens do an excellent dehusked roast barely especially when cold steeped.

You can add coffee if you want to increase the roast character, but my advice is to let it mature, whilst those hops are in your face you won't get the true impression.

 

[Queequeg]

btw how do you think the munich contributed as a base malt?

 

[stpug]

FG has stabilized at 1.022. Body and mouthfeel are very thick, but it's hard to accurately judge without carbonation. I also think that the addition of Simcoe might have been a mistake, as was pointed out above. It's not working well with the sweetness as I had hoped. It's also not roasty enough.. I know I was going for a subdued roast character but it's barely there. I would double the roasted barley and remove the carafa II if I were brewing it again tomorrow.

I'm debating adding cocoa nibs to this or just leaving alone for awhile to see how the flavor develops. Overall, I'm not happy with the beer because of the muted roast character and the fact the hop flavor. It will probably mellow and balance with time though, so I'm not counting it out yet.

That's not great news. I'm sorry if I led you astray with any suggestions I gave that may have led to this lack-luster end result. Certainly with a little time the simcoe aromatics will mellow; one month would probably yield about half as much, and two months may make it hard to distinguish (but no one likes having to wait out a keg so it gets better - trust me, I know, I've got one I'm waiting out right now for sulfur issues). Unfortunately, the only way the roast character would increase is if the hops are hiding it, in which case it could come up a smidge but probably not a lot.

Thanks for posting back your tasting notes as well as how you might do things differently in the future. I think it's great when someone can finish up their post with tasting notes and suggestions on how they might do things differently next time.

 

[TheMadKing]

That's not great news. I'm sorry if I led you astray with any suggestions I gave that may have led to this lack-luster end result. Certainly with a little time the simcoe aromatics will mellow; one month would probably yield about half as much, and two months may make it hard to distinguish (but no one likes having to wait out a keg so it gets better - trust me, I know, I've got one I'm waiting out right now for sulfur issues). Unfortunately, the only way the roast character would increase is if the hops are hiding it, in which case it could come up a smidge but probably not a lot.



Thanks for posting back your tasting notes as well as how you might do things differently in the future. I think it's great when someone can finish up their post with tasting notes and suggestions on how they might do things differently next time.

No worries that's part of brewing! Your yeast choice was a good one I think, and at the end of the day it was my decisions and my recipe.

And I don't mind waiting out a keg!

 

[TheMadKing]

btw how do you think the munich contributed as a base malt?

I honestly couldn't taste it over the hops, but it's not even kegged yet, so once it's kegged and carbed for a couple weeks I'll post back with more detailed tasting notes.

 

[markstache]

You could steep more roast malt in hot water, boil to sterilize and add it back to the fermentor. Toss in some simple sugar as well to wake up the yeast to make sure they eat up any oxygen and avoid lowering your gravity too much.

 

[TheMadKing]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486247544.650584.jpg

Official tasting notes

Head retention: medium to poor

Mouthfeel: very thick and viscous with a nice bite from the carbonation. Very mild astringency after the swallow.

Flavor: first impression is slightly too hoppy for a sweet stout, but the overwhelming simcoe flavor has faded. The roast character has balanced out nicely, but is still slightly muted, and could do with a slight increase. The Munich malt is noticeable but subtle and is a great addition. It adds a grainy sweetness that compliments the cloying sweetness from the lactose and makes it more round and full. I would highly recommend a Munich based sweet stout, or even a Munich based coffee stout would be good. I can't say I notice any yeast character at all.

Overall this beer is much better than I thought it would be, but it is not really a sweet stout. It drinks somewhere between a sweet stout and an American porter. Solid, but I would make changes if I brewed it again.

 

[Queequeg]

Good to hear things turned out better than expected.

Any suspicion as too why the head retention is poor? How much yeast did you pitch?

 

[TheMadKing]

Good to hear things turned out better than expected.

Any suspicion as too why the head retention is poor? How much yeast did you pitch?

Thanks! I think it's just the recipe. Its not so poor that it distracts from the beer but the head is virtually gone after 1 minute or so. I had to pour in a little more just before I took the picture to get it to look like that. I'm also starting to suspect that my regulator gauge is a bit off, so it could just be slightly under carbonated too. I'm not good at judging carbonation levels by feel alone.

If I were making this again tomorrow, I would replace the carafa ii with roasted barley (possibly cold steeped), cut the simcoe, add carapils, and either increase or cut the honey malt since I can't really detect it. I might also consider adding a subtle amount of coffee. Something about this beer seems like coffee would be a really good fit.

 

[Queequeg]

OK so this is what I have planned for this weekend.

9Lbs Maris Otter
2 lbs Munich
2 lbs flaked barley
1lb C70 (British)
1lb Boricha (Korean barley tea) (cold steeped)
0.5lb Roast Barley (cold steeped)
0.25lb caraaroma

0.5oz warrior @60mins
4oz cocoa @ 10mins
1lb lactose @10mins

Mash high

Ferment with Wyeast 1469

Chocolate extract to taste @ kegging
Vanillia extract to taste @ kegging

SG 1.063
FG 1.026

 

[TheMadKing]

OK so this is what I have planned for this weekend.

9Lbs Maris Otter
2 lbs Munich
2 lbs flaked barley
1lb C70 (British)
1lb Boricha (Korean barley tea) (cold steeped)
0.5lb Roast Barley (cold steeped)
0.25lb caraaroma

0.5oz warrior @60mins
4oz cocoa @ 10mins
1lb lactose @10mins

Mash high

Ferment with Wyeast 1469

Chocolate extract to taste @ kegging
Vanillia extract to taste @ kegging

SG 1.063
FG 1.026

That looks pretty good, what does boricha add? I've never heard of it.

Also a lb of lactose is a lot, so that will be very very sweet.

 

[Queequeg]

Boricha is really smooth, mild coffee and chocolate flavour. I suppose the closest would be chocolate rye but that's a bit more bitter.

I used 0.75lb of crystal and 0.75lb lactose in my last milk stout and it wasn't sweet enough or chewy enough for my pallet. I like a sweet stout sweet.

 

[Queequeg]

Ok after some delays got around to kegging this yesterday. FG was 1.020 which surprised me.

I used a high sodium and high chloride water profile, 100ppm of each and a high mash pH 5.6.

Initial tasting indicate it is my best milk stout to date, very chocolate and very silky, with a smooth gentle roast character. My friend commented "it is as good as any commercial milk stout I have tasted". So I pretty happy with that.

I did not add any chocolate extract in the end, its doesn't really enhance the chocolate character. I did add 9ml of vanilla extract which should be enough just to give it a hint of vanilla.

Will feedback with tasting notes in couple of weeks.