Unreasonable Sense of Entitlement. The scourge of modern society.

[passedpawn]

Yea, bobby's right 100%, but this is a new age of shopping and best to get onboard or get left behind. Shipping is a big deal with online shopping. It's THE deal. IMO (and I'm no businessman) the thing that made Jeff Bezos a gazillionaire was getting a handle on shipping times and costs. It's the main impediment to online shopping. Remember when he was just selling books?

I don't know the answer for small online sites. Maybe there's no answer right now. Sure, you can just brush it off and blame the shipper (that's the truth). But you'll lose customers, because there is a new norm, like it or not. Maybe sell through Amazon? No idea what that entails.

 

[jleiii]

Maybe sell through Amazon? No idea what that entails.

We used to do this when they had their 'pay per click' model. When they stopped that we were left behind, although it was barely a few % of sales. Now you can sign up to sell direct, or through the 'Fulfilled by Amazon' program. The former does have benefit over your own website (the cust pays Amazon, and Amazon pays you minus fees, but they set the shipping charge IIRC, you still have to process and ship it), plus putting you in front of a gazillion people, but many will skip you for the instant gratification that FBA can provide. For us the FBA program does not really help. We manufacture every item we sell (glass tube heating elements), and would need to build and ship 25-50 (or more?) of every item we contract for, to sit on their shelf, plus pay rental on that space. We know our hot sellers, but it would still be a HUGE investment to stock their shelves. We're still debating if we will do either.

 

[BruceH]

To be fair, you will also be judged by the performance of your business partners. I can't speak to your experience with the USPS as a whole, but personally I've had far more issues receiving USPS packages than UPS/FedEx. My USPS packages always arrived beat to hell, while my UPS packages generally look like someone took it off a store shelf and put it on my porch. I know when I order from you (which i've done quit a bit of) that i need to be thinking 2-3 weeks ahead, or be willing to shell out another $10-20 for shipping if its urgent.

If I have a deadline to get something, i will choose the vendor who offers UPS or FedEx at a reasonable rate. If it's something I can wait for though then i'll hope for the best and go USPS. More often than not it's just fine.

Amazon is FAR from perfect as well. They give 'Guaranteed Delivery by' dates at checkout. In my experience it's 50/50, but when they're late, they refund all the shipping charges, even when it's not their fault.

Customers can be real ashholes sometimes!

I avoid everything Amazon if I can. Many reasons but mainly I don't like purchasing from a middleman for a middleman for a middleman, et al.

The USPS thing must be regional. It's my preferred method of shipping if it will fit in a Priority Mail flat rate box.

True story and it's happened more than a few times. UPS will have the package at the local facility and put it on the truck for delivery but it's a day or two before it's supposed to be delivered. At the end of the day they will update tracking info from "out for delivery" to "returned to xxxxx facility due to not delivery date".

On the other hand FedEx delivers on Saturday and they have no problem giving me faster service than what was paid for.

 

[mongoose33]

One thing that is very different is the ability of consumers to express their dissatisfaction online. Yelp, dedicated forums like this one--not too many businesses can afford to have very much negative feedback online. Same thing with reviews at places such as Amazon.

On balance, I think that's resulted in better service. In a way, it's not terribly different from what we see in a small town with face-to-face interaction with local merchants and tradespeople. Whereas once we knew people personally by their reputations, today we know them by their online reviews.

 

[schematix]

One thing that is very different is the ability of consumers to express their dissatisfaction online. Yelp, dedicated forums like this one--not too many businesses can afford to have very much negative feedback online.

So true.

In fact i had the absolute worst experience in my entire life with Auber Instruments. Years later it still boils my blood. Evil, crooked, worthless mthfckrs. They were so awful to me i still can't help but tell everyone on these boards what pieces of garbage they are. I hope they go out of business for what they did to me. Crooks.

OK deep breath. Nope.... not enough: worthless mthfckrs.

 

[Inkleg]

So true.

In fact i had the absolute worst experience in my entire life with Auber Instruments. Years later it still boils my blood. Evil, crooked, worthless mthfckrs. They were so awful to me i still can't help but tell everyone on these boards what pieces of garbage they are. I hope they go out of business for what they did to me. Crooks.

OK deep breath. Nope.... not enough: worthless mthfckrs.

Interesting as I had great customer service from Auber Insturments years ago. I had a SS braided pid cable arrive with a kink in it and wires poking through. A quick email and a picture and I had a new one in my mailbox two days later with a postage paid envelope to send the other back in.

 

[Pappers_]

That's odd, I order routinely from Farmhouse and they ship via UPS and i'd estimate that 75% of the time UPS delivers before the estimated date of delivery. Often the day after it was shipped.

. . . True story and it's happened more than a few times. UPS will have the package at the local facility and put it on the truck for delivery but it's a day or two before it's supposed to be delivered. At the end of the day they will update tracking info from "out for delivery" to "returned to xxxxx facility due to not delivery date".

On the other hand FedEx delivers on Saturday and they have no problem giving me faster service than what was paid for.

 

[MaxStout]

I often use comments as a crowd-sourcing tool to get a rough idea of an online product--if there is a large number of reviews overall (for statistical validity). If there are 25 reviews and most are 4 and 5-star, I don't pay much heed to the one or two 1-star reviews, as those are probably outliers, some disgruntled customers. I pay attention to the 3-stars, as those are often well-articulated critiques that may be helpful and not necessarily make it a deal-breaker to me. Of course, some people may hone in on the few negative reviews. That's why a bad review can impact an online vendor. It's unfortunate, but no vendor is going to please everybody, and the ones who are unhappy now have a platform to air their grievances.

 

[schematix]

Interesting as I had great customer service from Auber Insturments years ago. I had a SS braided pid cable arrive with a kink in it and wires poking through. A quick email and a picture and I had a new one in my mailbox two days later with a postage paid envelope to send the other back in.

No doubt they handle the simple shipping and product defects just fine. My situation was a bit more complex due to the volume of stuff i had purchased from them. They really screwed up an enclosure i bought from them and wouldn't take responsibility for it (wrong size holes and holes in wrong location). Long story short, when i talked to them on the phone they hung up on me and refused to communicate further even via e-mail (for like a week IIRC). Wasn't until I disputed the entire charge with my credit card company that they came back to the table. Still didn't resolve to my satisfaction either.

 

[Bobby_M]

I've been reflecting on this a few more days and have come up with some observations.

First, it seems to happen more during high volume times and around holidays but the truth is, negative situations are still happening at about the .1% rate but it's just more often due to the higher order rates. I have to keep that in perspective.

As the owner of the company, I have to especially work to keep from responding in a defensive way. When I put those 70-80 hour weeks in (now the norm), I have a shorter fuse than I normally would. I may react as if the disgruntled customer should know better that the 99.9% satisfaction rate I have is due to all the hard hours I put in. Great, but their order was messed up somehow and it doesn't matter to them what I do for anyone else. This is so true and so hard to swallow at the same time.

I have to also consider that not everything is fair. Maybe the way it works is that I have to take that .1% and just eat it. If the customer ends up acting like an entitled brat about something, maybe you just take the loss instead of standing on principals or policy. As long as it's a rare, it's not going to affect anything really. It's just that principals matter to me as a person but that doesn't always make for good business.

Ok, enough self reflection and more example.

I list First Class Postage as an option but I'm extra careful to be clear that it's slow, unpredictable, and although they do put tracking scans on them, it's not great. It's also not insurable so if it's lost I have nothing to fall back on. I offer this because people ask for it due to how many tiny orders come in because someone forgot one close nipple. On a daily basis, I get calls asking why it's taking so long (like 5 days across the country). I usually just respond with a link to the shipping policy page.

This week I heard from a customer over 800 miles away upset because the pack of liquid yeast he ordered on New Year's Eve is just arriving now. I was concerned and then found that he selected First Class postage and didn't even request an ice pack. On principal, it was a poor choice. The way to really fix the situation would be to just eat the cost of yeast AND priority shipping and just get it out again. Ugh.. it's not fair but....

I'm rambling already but last thing. I remember posting this thread 9 years ago: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/holy-bad-customer-service-batman-stpats-of-texas.37406/

I'm not at all saying that they way I was treated by the vendor was right, but I am starting to understand just a little bit.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm an educator. Not the same, but in some ways similar. If I focused on the doofuses who don't read the syllabus, can't be bothered to show up to class, won't read the book--well, I'd be out of this business in no time.

I've found that I need to focus on the students (customers!) who are doing what they need to do. I don't spend a lot of time looking at the doofuses; they just bring me down. If they, as I say, "get religion," well, then that's different. But most don't. They just feel entitled to pass the class with an A or a B, and that's that. Sadly, for them, the class grade distribution DOES approximate a normal distribution. I don't curve--they curve themselves.

Bobby, in this day and age, when people can post their "experiences" on the web and others will take their reviews as gospel, it seems like the only thing you can do is try to be as customer-focused as you can.

*********

You may or may not recall this--I asked for, and received, a spunding valve ordered from you for Christmas. It came in a nice box marked "Ball" which I took to mean including the ball-lock quick-disconnect.

Except...it had the connection to a Sanke keg in it. I emailed you, included a pic, asked nicely about the goofup. Except...it wasn't your goofup. The drop-down menu clearly asks to specify a connection, and Sanke is the default. My daughter, who bought that for me, didn't know that. I took my info from the page that showed a QD on it.

My fault. You offered to include a QD in my next order gratis, but I didn't follow through because, well, it was my mistake (not the first time I've asked for brewing stuff for X-mas, and got the wrong size). You'd think I'd learn. Maybe next year.

I'm keeping the sanke connector; who knows, at some point it may be important. And the value of the QD is hardly worth doing anything more. I have a few spares. I'm using one.

I say this because, IMO, you responded with excellent CS: It was my fault, but you offered to make it right. It's why it's easy to pull up your web page to order something instead of searching. Bobby, it does matter.

Go back and see what I wrote in the first section above. Don't focus on the doofuses. (should the plural of doofus be doofi? I don't know).

*************

I don't know what proportion of doofus customers you get. Don't answer, it can't end well. But there are those of us who appreciate the CS, and your attempts at trying to make sure we get what we need, not just what we order.

You may need to put a control on your website that doesn't allow people to order yeast and specify first-class mail. And despite that, I'm moved to say this: what moron doesn't know that first-class mail is....iffy?

 

[jleiii]

True story and it's happened more than a few times. UPS will have the package at the local facility and put it on the truck for delivery but it's a day or two before it's supposed to be delivered. At the end of the day they will update tracking info from "out for delivery" to "returned to xxxxx facility due to not delivery date".

I'm astonished by this. We've used UPS almost exclusively for 32 yrs, and tracking is 'new' in that range, but with easily 10's of thousands of shipments, this has never happened that we know of. And in the last 10, maybe, they arrive on time almost without exception (weather permitting, of course). With that exception, they guarantee delivery on all but ground. Even those arrive on time.
We too know when a customer is not happy with delivery, but due to the high cost to ship what we make (10-20% of product cost in some cases), we cannot make good for them.

As Bobby has pointed out, being a small business owner can be a tough life, especially when you have a 'day job' too. Being family owned can make it even harder!

 

[balrog]

While it is a brave new world, as has been said, I have to COMPLETELY agree that an overall rudification has happened. And while my grown kids are quick to point out that I may be focusing on rude behavior, therefore making its frequency seem artificially increased, they are also convinced that general selfish behavior is becoming more the norm. This is true at B&M shopping, most public venues, and ESPECIALLY on the roadways. Don't get me started on drivers who refuse to use signals.

Anyway, about the immediacy and instant gratification thing. I'd love to say its generational but I can see it in all demographics, in many places. What burns me is the very folks who cannot seem to reply in a timely fashion to scheduling emails/calls/texts, are the ones who go apoplectic when I don't answer them within seconds. Double standards abound.

And stay off my lawn.

 

[jcav]

Just saw this thread..... All I can say is there are "all kinds" of people out there and some are so unrealistic. Many are entitled and have no patience or understanding. To not want to order from you because the post office was slow or messed up is crazy! All I can say is I have ordered from you many times over the years and even have talked to you on the phone, and I have never had an issue or bad experience. You even made a custom tri clover fitting for me so I can put C02 into my fermentor and rack under pressure! That item was a hit and I see you sell a lot of them! So keep up the good work and ignore the goof balls! You can vent here anytime, it's good to get the poison out!

John

 

[MaxStout]

Letting a few trollish, unhappy customers get under your skin is to allow the squeaky wheel to get the oil. Ignore that 2% of your customers who will never be satisfied, no matter what you do. Concentrate on the 98% who think you are doing a great job. The latter are people who will come back, and will tell others to do business with you.

Don't give the bastards the satisfaction.

 

[balrog]

/\ hear hear!
Illegitimi non carborundum

 

[BruceH]

That's odd, I order routinely from Farmhouse and they ship via UPS and i'd estimate that 75% of the time UPS delivers before the estimated date of delivery. Often the day after it was shipped.

That's great, I can remember when they used to do that here. I always figured it averaged out the few times they just wouldn't make it on time because the package got on a wrong truck traveling from coast to coast.

It's just a little maddening when you track the package as out for delivery, see the big brown truck go by without stopping, and later see the tracking updated that it wasn't time for delivery yet so the package was returned to the local facility. They were correct, it wasn't the scheduled delivery date.

And yes, I thought it was very odd. Still though, they brought it back on the next day when it was scheduled to be delivered, lol.

 

[madscientist451]

I replied with an explanation of what likely happened and that I was disappointed that he'd consider not using me as a vendor in the future due to a shipping carrier mistake. On what planet is this kind of opinion reasonable?

PSA to everyone. When you fire off an email to a vendor, please understand that it's a human on the other end. I put in 70+ hours a week trying to make everyone as happy as possible. I'm honored to have this career but there are days when I get two or three of these people busting my balls for similar issues.

Ok, just venting. Shots all around!

On what planet do you expect people to accept your definition of reasonable expectations and opinions?
When you deal with the general public, you have to accept people as they are.
None of the unrealistic idiots are going to change because you complain on HBT or anywhere else.
A certain percentage of customers are always going to have some issue, some complaint.
All you can do is try to keep that number as low as possible and then you can say to yourself you've done your best.

 

[SanPancho]

I'm rambling already but last thing. I remember posting this thread 9 years ago: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/holy-bad-customer-service-batman-stpats-of-texas.37406/

I'm not at all saying that they way I was treated by the vendor was right, but I am starting to understand just a little bit.

in case you were wondering st pats is still one of the WORST companies to call with problems. or even just a question for that matter.

amazing they're still in business.

maybe start counting your customer service calls and limit yourself to every 100th call (1%) where you can speak your mind. that way you every so often you can just go ape-**** berzerk on somebody who deserves it. like a pressure relief for your sanity. and there'll still be 99 other folks who say "what a nice guy"!!!

 

[user 125772]

I find it ridiculous that folks EXPECT that their packages are going to arrive on time, every time!
It doesn't work like that ! Stuff gets misplaced, dropped, left behind, truck was too full , driver was sick, etc. It's not a machine that runs 24/7 with 9-nines uptime and dependability , it's a bunch of human beings that do it. Folks need to chill, nobody dies because your beer kit didn't arrive on time.

Rule #1: There's no crying in the brewhouse.

 

[Pkrd]

Rule #1: There's no crying in the brewhouse.

Unless you’re brewing a Gose.

 

[mlafnitzegger]

I’ve always had great service and excellent equipment plus decent delivery from bh. I always recommend them. Thx for giving back so much to the home brewing community.

 

[MHBT]

Screw those people Bob, you should scratch you a$$ with their brand new auto siphon and make sure you use the racking cane part

 

[davetheprinter]

I'm old enough (gasp) to remember the era of mailorder "as seen on TV" ads where the fast talking dude at the end would say "allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery". Now, I realize we're in the same day Amazon Prime delivery era so we've come a long way.

I got an email today from a disgruntled customer who is upset that USPS estimated delivery yesterday but it's tracking several states away. It's obvious that USPS made a gross sorting error and it's taking longer than expected. I understand being disappointed about that. I've been on the receiving end of that many times.

What really took me back was the closing line of the email. "Will think twice before ordering from you again."

I replied with an explanation of what likely happened and that I was disappointed that he'd consider not using me as a vendor in the future due to a shipping carrier mistake. On what planet is this kind of opinion reasonable?

PSA to everyone. When you fire off an email to a vendor, please understand that it's a human on the other end. I put in 70+ hours a week trying to make everyone as happy as possible. I'm honored to have this career but there are days when I get two or three of these people busting my balls for similar issues.

Ok, just venting. Shots all around!

While I appreciate can-do attitude that goes with the "customer's always right" approach to business, I don't really buy it. In my business, I practice "the customer deserves to be treated with respect, and so do I".

 

[Pkrd]

I'm old enough (gasp) to remember the era of mailorder "as seen on TV" ads where the fast talking dude at the end would say "allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery". Now, I realize we're in the same day Amazon Prime delivery era so we've come a long way.

I got an email today from a disgruntled customer who is upset that USPS estimated delivery yesterday but it's tracking several states away. It's obvious that USPS made a gross sorting error and it's taking longer than expected. I understand being disappointed about that. I've been on the receiving end of that many times.

What really took me back was the closing line of the email. "Will think twice before ordering from you again."

I replied with an explanation of what likely happened and that I was disappointed that he'd consider not using me as a vendor in the future due to a shipping carrier mistake. On what planet is this kind of opinion reasonable?

PSA to everyone. When you fire off an email to a vendor, please understand that it's a human on the other end. I put in 70+ hours a week trying to make everyone as happy as possible. I'm honored to have this career but there are days when I get two or three of these people busting my balls for similar issues.

Ok, just venting. Shots all around!

Hey OP can you do a summary of this post for those of us who are busy. it's like 6 paragraphs long (3 is usually my max) and I've got stuff to do. Youtube vid or podcast would be OK I guess, I could listen to that while I'm waxing my moustache or flossing the cat.

Cheers

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Hey OP can you do a summary of this post for those of us who are busy. it's like 6 paragraphs long (3 is usually my max) and I've got stuff to do. Youtube vid or podcast would be OK I guess, I could listen to that while I'm waxing my moustache or flossing the cat.

Cheers

Literally laughed out loud, too F'n funny!

 

[Dutchman52]

I'm old enough (gasp) to remember the era of mailorder "as seen on TV" ads where the fast talking dude at the end would say "allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery". Now, I realize we're in the same day Amazon Prime delivery era so we've come a long way.

I got an email today from a disgruntled customer who is upset that USPS estimated delivery yesterday but it's tracking several states away. It's obvious that USPS made a gross sorting error and it's taking longer than expected. I understand being disappointed about that. I've been on the receiving end of that many times.

What really took me back was the closing line of the email. "Will think twice before ordering from you again."

I replied with an explanation of what likely happened and that I was disappointed that he'd consider not using me as a vendor in the future due to a shipping carrier mistake. On what planet is this kind of opinion reasonable?

PSA to everyone. When you fire off an email to a vendor, please understand that it's a human on the other end. I put in 70+ hours a week trying to make everyone as happy as possible. I'm honored to have this career but there are days when I get two or three of these people busting my balls for similar issues.

Ok, just venting. Shots all around!

OK,OK,OK I dont get delivery at home Mail (never here til about 630pm) or UPS ( they have disappeared more than once). So the answer was a PO Box. NOT, If the package says delivery on x day, I dont even check my po box for at least two more days. IF they dont lose it altogether. My Vent.... PO sucks.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'm old enough (gasp) to remember the era of mailorder "as seen on TV" ads where the fast talking dude at the end would say "allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery". Now, I realize we're in the same day Amazon Prime delivery era so we've come a long way.

I got an email today from a disgruntled customer who is upset that USPS estimated delivery yesterday but it's tracking several states away. It's obvious that USPS made a gross sorting error and it's taking longer than expected. I understand being disappointed about that. I've been on the receiving end of that many times.

What really took me back was the closing line of the email. "Will think twice before ordering from you again."

I replied with an explanation of what likely happened and that I was disappointed that he'd consider not using me as a vendor in the future due to a shipping carrier mistake. On what planet is this kind of opinion reasonable?

PSA to everyone. When you fire off an email to a vendor, please understand that it's a human on the other end. I put in 70+ hours a week trying to make everyone as happy as possible. I'm honored to have this career but there are days when I get two or three of these people busting my balls for similar issues.

Ok, just venting. Shots all around!

Send the guy one of these, complimentary of course.
[emoji12]

 

[Bobby_M]

I may as well use this thread to vent similar stories. I don't know if it's interesting to read but I don't have time for real therapy so....

Customer places an order Monday morning, the day we are super busy catching up with weekend orders. He sends it in online so it's in the queue like all the rest. No rush email, call or expedited shipping method selected.

By some miracle we got the order out the next day, 24 hours after the order came in. I must have seen that it was just for a single item and knew it was an easy one.

About an hour before the box was picked up, customer emails and said he won't be ordering from me anymore because he doesn't have time to figure out or remember which vendors have a same day shipping schedule and we just take too long to get orders out.

I responded with a brief explanation that we have never claimed to be able to turn orders same day and in fact, we are transparent about order volumes almost to a fault all over the website. I also said that if I would have seen that email right away, I would have canceled the order. (I only caught up with emails after all the pickups happened that day)

He responded with anger (big surprise) and wondered why I would be so abrasive with a customer that is looking to increase order sizes in the future.

Haha... the first email said he wasn't going to be placing anymore orders with me because it's too slow. So which is it?
Perma-banned account sir!

 

[kh54s10]

Bobby, when are you going to roll out your jet powered delivery drones so that everyone will have delivery the same day. Minutes later in the northeast. A couple of hours for most of the rest of the country and a few hours to the west coast. Of course there will still be problems with weather, causing a 20 minute delay - Thus, nasty customers - Problem not solved.