Twang taste in all grain

[Nike_Eayrs]

I started brewing extract like many other home brewers, and noticed a twang like taste in my beer. I always credited it to the extract, and switched to all grain. My first all grain batch had a similar twang, and I credited it to having too much carmel malt as it was an IPA kit from NB. I recently made a batch of pale ale and the same taste is there. It's really hard to describe, but its an odd taste on the front end that fades as the bitterness of the pale ale comes around. I've used bottled water, tap water and the taste still resides. I was a freak about sanitation for the last batch. I bought new tubing, bottle filler, and racking cane thinking maybe it was a contamination issue. I bought fresh yeast thinking maybe that was the issue as well. The sad part is there is a seemingly really good beer trapped under the off taste! My recipe is listed below and I would love to hear what you have to say. Thanks!

11lbs two row
.25lb carmel 20l
1oz centennial hops (60 min)
1oz cascade (15min)
1oz cascade (0 min)
1.5oz cascade dryhop

 

[Brewmech]

Water make up, ingredient freshness, or fermentation temp would be my best guess.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Usually, bitterness on the front of the tongue is astringency. http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/astringency/

This is normally due to grain/husk bits being exposed to high temperatures (175F or above, e.g. sparge temperature too high), or by grain/husk bits making it to the kettle and being boiled.

MC

 

[Revvy]

I've come to believe that extract twang is a myth, and it's usually just green beer that the brewer who complains about it is tasting.

How long are you giving your process? Typically my "normal" beers are 8 weeks from grain to glass if I'm bottling conditioning and 7 weeks if kegging, and most of them taste fine then, and the rest need more time.

There's a lot of other factors that could come into play, such as are you using temp control, or you using the correct amount of yeast (i.e. using starters with liquid yeast,) but let's start with your average time frame, and I'm sure other folks will haul out their "pet" reasons why it might taste bad, but I've found that most of the time, when we break it down, we find simple impatience to be the main cause.

 

[duboman]

Review this list and see if you can narrow something down other than 'twang'

http://www.kroc.org/Links/TroubleshootingGuide.htm

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

fermentation temp was a steady 60-65 degreed ambient temp. I thought that may be the issue with the beers I made last summer, but with the winter here in WI the temp is pretty low and stable in the area the fermentors are kept. As far as freshness, I've bought locally and online with the exact same issue. Yeast was wyeast 1056. The beer is drinkable, but nothing I would really share with friends.

 

[progmac]

did you make a starter?

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

did you make a starter?

OG was 1.051 so I just pitched the smack pack.

 

[Revvy]

OG was 1.051 so I just pitched the smack pack.

If you've ever run the numbers in a priming calculator you'll see that even beers as low as 1.030 could use a starter, even if it's a small one. 1.040, is where it really begins to make a difference. Smacks packs alone rarely provide enough yeast for any size beers, especially if the smack pack is a few months old.

 

[stpug]

Review this list and see if you can narrow something down other than 'twang'

http://www.kroc.org/Links/TroubleshootingGuide.htm

This webpage doesn't work for me. Just a blank/white page nothing else. Am I the only one?

 

[progmac]

Other Qs

How long are you dry hopping? How are you cooling?

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

If you've ever run the numbers in a priming calculator you'll see that even beers as low as 1.030 could use a starter, even if it's a small one. 1.040, is where it really begins to make a difference. Smacks packs alone rarely provide enough yeast for any size beers, especially if the smack pack is a few months old.

So do you think under pitching could cause the off taste I'm talking about? I wish I could describe it better, but I've never tasted anything like it. I did look at a posting on the web regarding off flavors, and non of them really match what the flavor is.

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

Dry hop was for one week, and I get no nose of hops. The taste I'm talking about permiates a sort of smell in the beer. If it sits it seems to reduce, but it never goes away.

 

[Revvy]

So do you think under pitching could cause the off taste I'm talking about? I wish I could describe it better, but I've never tasted anything like it. I did look at a posting on the web regarding off flavors, and non of them really match what the flavor is.

We're not tasting your beer, we really can't tell you what's going in, we can only offer you ideas and suggestions based on the info you gave us. And most of the time, like I said earlier we're all going to be giving you our "pet theories."

There are so many variables at play in brewing, and we can do is show you possibilities and you have to try different things.

If you know someone who's a beer judge, someone with some training in tasting off flavors, you might want to have them taste it. Or find a club in your area.

 

[byounger]

usually, bitterness on the front of the tongue is astringency. http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/astringency/

this is normally due to grain/husk bits being exposed to high temperatures (175f or above, e.g. Sparge temperature too high), or by grain/husk bits making it to the kettle and being boiled.

Mc

+1

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

Revvy, this one sat for 5 weeks before I bottled it and another 2 weeks in the bottle.

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, this one sat for 5 weeks before I bottled it and another 2 weeks in the bottle.

It depends on the gravity of the beers in question, and the temp you're storing them at, but if you open an average gravity beer before it has been carbonation/conditioning for 3 weeks at or above 70 degrees, then more than likely any off flavors you're experiencing is probably just green.

If you're storing your beers below 70, even a 5 week old beer can be green, ESPECIALLY if it is a higher gravity beer, i.e. above 1.060 og....The higher the gravity the longer a beer takes to come into it's own.

 

[Toga]

Revvy might be onto something with your pitch rate. Try using a packet of us05 for your next brew. The dry packs have double the cell count as a Wyeast smack pack and would be an easy measure to figure out if under pitching is your issue. Brew a simple pale ale to make your mistakes easier to detect.

Also if you are brewing all grain your issue could be water related. Are you using city water that is chlorinated, well water that has been softened, bottled spring water, or RO water you have used to build your own profile?

 

[Yooper]

It sounds like a water issue to me- in particular a higher alkalinity/bicarbonate level in the water.

What kind of water did you use, and did you add anything to the water? It almost sounds like 5.2 pH stabilizer stuff.

 

[stratslinger]

fermentation temp was a steady 60-65 degreed ambient temp...Yeast was wyeast 1056...

This could certainly contribute to your problems right here.

For one, to many of us who do control our temperatures, to state a 5 degree range and call that steady is a contradiction of terms.

For two, during the most active period of fermentation, your fermenter will often be 5-10 degrees warmer than ambient. Fermentation is an exothermic process, so those yeast are giving off heat while they're doing their thing. So, when they're at their most active, which is also when they're most likely to be throwing esters, fusels, and other off-flavor generating compounds, if your fermentation area is at 65, your fermenter may be close to 75. And that yeast you're using has an ideal range of 60-72, according to Wyeast's web site. If you're in that 70-75 range, you're likely to start throwing off flavors that could range from simple fruity esters to possibly some solventy esters (you're not likely getting _that_ warm, but maybe over the summer?).

Try looking into something like a simple swamp cooler, and focus on keeping the fermenter, and not just the ambient temperature, in that 60-65 degree range.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

If you've ever run the numbers in a priming calculator you'll see that even beers as low as 1.030 could use a starter, even if it's a small one. 1.040, is where it really begins to make a difference. Smacks packs alone rarely provide enough yeast for any size beers, especially if the smack pack is a few months old.

+1 I've only been brewing for a little over a year (also started with extract w/ steeping grains), and also kept getting that weird, difficult to describe "twang" flavor. Very frustrating!! I was doing everything I could possibly think of to get rid of it. I also wasn't doing yeast starters, and was just dumping in the WL vial - since they claim it should be plenty of cells for most regular gravity brews.

I initially balked at so many people raving about doing starters, thinking "why would they sell them that way, then?", and "fermentation still seems to take off quickly without a starter". Well, I finally gave in after several brews were still coming out with that "twang" - and ever since, that flavor has gone away completely. For me, that was the last big change in my procedure that actually got rid of that flavor.

(My only other enemy early on was lack of temp control during fermentation - that also made a world of difference in off-flavors all around. Paying special attention to the rising temps during the first day or two of active fermentation has helped me even more.) But definitely try the starter if you stick with using liquid yeast packs/vials.

 

[Piratwolf]

Over the last 2 years of intense brewing & trying to train my palate, I've come to agree with what Revvy said about extract twang. I think in most cases it's more accurately called process twang. And for me, that slight twang is from ferment temp issues. I tightly control my temps w/ mini-fridge & johnson A419 most times, but in cooler months I tend to let some beers ferment in a closet. I recently split a 10gal batch b/n a carboy in the fridge and one in the closet.

Results? Faint twang of yeast/esters in the closet batch, clean flavor from the fridge batch. Now I gotta scour CL to find a full size fridge to get my 10gal batches clean!

 

[bell0347]

What do you ferment in? I switched from buckets to glass carboys and started kegging about the same time. Almost every off flavor I've dealt with is now gone from my kegged beer. I still bottle some heavier or seasonal brews and I clean the bottles like a mad man. Still, I get the occasional bottle with a funky or off taste. I think sanitation and oxidation play a much larger role in beer quality and stability than I initially gave them credit for.

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

It sounds like a water issue to me- in particular a higher alkalinity/bicarbonate level in the water.

What kind of water did you use, and did you add anything to the water? It almost sounds like 5.2 pH stabilizer stuff.

That is the mystery here. I've used bottled water (spring water from walmart) as well as tap water and gotten the same odd taste. I do not add anything to the water, which was tap water in this case.

 

[Yooper]

That is the mystery here. I've used bottled water (spring water from walmart) as well as tap water and gotten the same odd taste. I do not add anything to the water, which was tap water in this case.

Hmm, I have just a couple of suggestions. First, use reverse osmosis water (not spring water) from the "water machine". That will eliminate any water issues.

Next, I'd suggest using dry yeast (s05) and doing a 1.050 or under batch. That way, you eliminate underpitching as a variable as well.

lastly, keep a stick-on thermomometer on the outside of the fermenter and keep a careful eye on it to keep it at 65-68 degrees at all times.

Those three things should make sure that these variables are controlled, without making a lot of big changes. I think it's one of these three things, or maybe a combination of them.

 

[stpug]

...I'd suggest using dry yeast (s05) and doing a 1.050 or under batch...keep a careful eye on it to keep it at 65-68 degrees at all times...

Just to elaborate, this particular yeast (Safale US-05) produces a consistantly clean beer in this temperature range and ensures you'll be pitching correctly. You'll get a little fruity much above 71F, and you'll get peachy down into the lower 60s. So there is very good reasoning behind yoopers suggestions.

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

Hmm, I have just a couple of suggestions. First, use reverse osmosis water (not spring water) from the "water machine". That will eliminate any water issues.

Next, I'd suggest using dry yeast (s05) and doing a 1.050 or under batch. That way, you eliminate underpitching as a variable as well.

lastly, keep a stick-on thermomometer on the outside of the fermenter and keep a careful eye on it to keep it at 65-68 degrees at all times.

Those three things should make sure that these variables are controlled, without making a lot of big changes. I think it's one of these three things, or maybe a combination of them.

So I've been brwewing for about a year now, and my question is regarding S05. (not to get too far off subject) Do you see similar results with that as liquid yeast? (wyeast 1056, WLP 001) My LHBS pushes liquid yeast, that's all. Thanks!

 

[daksin]

So I've been brwewing for about a year now, and my question is regarding S05. (not to get too far off subject) Do you see similar results with that as liquid yeast? (wyeast 1056, WLP 001) My LHBS pushes liquid yeast, that's all. Thanks!

I've only used WLP001 to compare with US-05, but it doesn't get peachy like US-05 does below 63 or so. They're both clean up to about 69-70F, but I would never get them warmer than that. All those temps are beer temp, not ambient, obviously.

 

[Revvy]

So I've been brwewing for about a year now, and my question is regarding S05. (not to get too far off subject) Do you see similar results with that as liquid yeast? (wyeast 1056, WLP 001) My LHBS pushes liquid yeast, that's all. Thanks!

The reason we're suggestion dry yeast is because you're not making starters for your liquid. There's plenty of cells in a packet of dry to allow you to easily test if it's from constant underpitching of your beers using liquid yeast. If you want to do the research, and use a starter volume calculator for your liquid yeast, and make the right sized starters, fine, but it seems that we've given you a ton of overwhelming variables, like I said we all have "pet" theories, and you've gotten everyone of them, from the sublime to the ridiculous (glass/plastic/kegging/not kegging is not why you're having these problems) so you're going to need to conduct some controlled experiments, and limit the variables so you can narrow it down, rather than trying the shotgun approach by running around trying everyone's idea.

Yooper's narrowed it down to a few really good thing to try for your next batch to see if any of those things help. I would try the dry yeast and her experiments and keep it in the temp range that stpug suggested for the yeast to remain clean.....If you do that and it works, you can always go back to using liquid, just make sure you're pitching the right volume starter for the gravity of the beer you're making.

 

[Yooper]

So I've been brwewing for about a year now, and my question is regarding S05. (not to get too far off subject) Do you see similar results with that as liquid yeast? (wyeast 1056, WLP 001) My LHBS pushes liquid yeast, that's all. Thanks!

I much prefer WLP001, but if I was using dry yeast, I'd use S05 for most American styles at 65-70 degrees.

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

So I currently use oxy clean for cleaning and J.D Carlson no rinse for my sanitation. Any reason this could be the issue? I'm just looking at this from all angles.

 

[Revvy]

So I currently use oxy clean for cleaning and J.D Carlson no rinse for my sanitation. Any reason this could be the issue? I'm just looking at this from all angles.

Actually read what I wrote in this thread and replace the word "onestep" with "Ld Carlson no rinse" and pick up a real sanitizer.

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

Actually read what I wrote in this thread and replace the word "onestep" with "Ld Carlson no rinse" and pick up a real sanitizer.

Thanks Revvy! My LHBS has always pushed one step, so that's what I have always used. I got home from work last night and tore apart my whole system looking for potential problems, and that was one thing that came to mind. I really am heading back to the drawing board here. The primary reason I switched from extract to all grain was I thought it would eliminate the "taste" in question. Turns out something else was wrong. I'm gonna look for a very simple recipe, use S05 yeast, and keep it cool (I ran out and bought a plastic tub last night) and see if that makes a difference. So many people have been SOOOO helpful on this site, and I can't say thank you enough! I'm gonna keep posting until the issue is resolved and hope someone will find this useful in the future. Cheers!

 

[Toga]

Use your one step for cleaning do not use it for a sanitizer. It is pretty much just oxy clean. That stuff is definitely not a NO rinse sanitizer. My LHBS sold me a tub of it when I did my first batch. Like a noob I listened, used it and completely ruined the first batch due to it. Twas a shame too. It tasted awesome before I bottled it.

Go get a bottle of Star san, use it, love it, and most importantly do not fear the foam.

 

[Brewskii]

Revvy, this one sat for 5 weeks before I bottled it and another 2 weeks in the bottle.

I have been fighting this same yeasty tartness that I believe you are describing and I use all the tools out there and have what I believe is very good control on my temps both hot and cold.

I am trying to perfect a Cream Ale for competition and have had a beer judged with this tartness. Judges passed a lot of yeast comments that had me thinking about autolysis and how the hell does that happen and what I could do about it. BTW I notice this taste in all of my beers so I truly believe it's a process issue.

My 4 th version I just brewed in JAN and bottled
In the 4 th week of jan. I've been keeping
It away from my impatient hands and tasting one per week. Yesterday was week 5 in the bottle and I was really thinking about scrapping my recipie altogether because prior tastes yielded the same thing.

Week 5 -it was like someone flicked a switch! It was totally gone and made an exponential difference in the beer. It was dramatically different and for the better.

My new target is 6 weeks bottle conditioning before passing judgement.

 

[progmac]

I have been fighting this same yeasty tartness that I believe you are describing and I use all the tools out there and have what I believe is very good control on my temps both hot and cold.

I am trying to perfect a Cream Ale for competition and have had a beer judged with this tartness. Judges passed a lot of yeast comments that had me thinking about autolysis and how the hell does that happen and what I could do about it. BTW I notice this taste in all of my beers so I truly believe it's a process issue.

My 4 th version I just brewed in JAN and bottled
In the 4 th week of jan. I've been keeping
It away from my impatient hands and tasting one per week. Yesterday was week 5 in the bottle and I was really thinking about scrapping my recipie altogether because prior tastes yielded the same thing.

Week 5 -it was like someone flicked a switch! It was totally gone and made an exponential difference in the beer. It was dramatically different and for the better.

My new target is 6 weeks bottle conditioning before passing judgement.

how long are you in the primary? if your processes are good, you should be able to go grain-to-glass with a bottle conditioned cream ale within 5-6 weeks.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks Revvy! My LHBS has always pushed one step...

Is that where the BS in LHBS comes from? Don't we wish they stopped selling that.

 

[Brewskii]

how long are you in the primary? if your processes are good, you should be able to go grain-to-glass with a bottle conditioned cream ale within 5-6 weeks.

Usually 10-14 days. Using beersmith calculated starter size, stirplate starter, WLP029 pitched into wort aerated with 5 micron diffusing stone of o2 from home depot bottle for 2-3 min, fermenting@65 f with a Ranco controller & freezer w/the temp probe taped to the glass carboy with bubble wrap over the top.

I prime with organic cane sugar to around 2.5 volumes ( usually around 4 oz.). Bottle condition at 70 deg for 2 weeks and age it at 63F after I've confirmed that it's carbed.

I can get clear yellow fizzy beer @ 4 weeks but the flavor of yeasty tartness is overwhelming to me.

 

[progmac]

Usually 10-14 days. Using beersmith calculated starter size, stirplate starter, WLP029 pitched into wort aerated with 5 micron diffusing stone of o2 from home depot bottle for 2-3 min, fermenting@65 f with a Ranco controller & freezer w/the temp probe taped to the glass carboy with bubble wrap over the top.

I prime with organic cane sugar to around 2.5 volumes ( usually around 4 oz.). Bottle condition at 70 deg for 2 weeks and age it at 63F after I've confirmed that it's carbed.

I can get clear yellow fizzy beer @ 4 weeks but the flavor of yeasty tartness is overwhelming to me.

Awesome. I was wondering if you were a month in the primary plus six weeks in bottles, that sounded like a really long time. I really like to cold crash the kolsh/alt yeasts. It seems like the hang out in suspension forever if I don't.

 

[scubasteve03]

I breezed through all of the posts and i didnt notice anything about light or where you stored your fermenters. Could your "twang" be skunkiness from light exposure?