Troubleshooting a failed batch?!!!

[dgrabstein]

My latest batch is awful. Smells like phenolic, sulfur, rotten stinkbomb. Tastes basically the same. Just awsful. Wtf could be responsible for this??

Here are the potential causes I've narrowed down to:

It fermented at 60-65F with swings back and forth everyday in temps. Yeast was Burton ale yeast by white labs which is supposed to ferment at 70F.

I cooled super slowly in the fermenter, cold trub galore. I think the yeast actually used a lot of the trub because the trub got picked up off the bottom.

The top blew off and I had to leave the fermenter open for a couple days. I put the top back on with sanitizer once things stabilized.

I used whole malt in the yeast starter, so there were floating malts in the fermenter. I boiled the malt though so it shouldn't have been a problem.

That's all I can think of for now, could any of these things cause the problem I'm seeing?

 

[grathan]

What's whole malts mean?

Also, have you had these flavors before? if so i would think possibly chlorine in the water used.


By leaving the top open you left it exposed to wild airborne yeast and bacteria. This stuff tastes horrible in beer.

The sulfur could be from incomplete fermentation. Did you check FG?


The phenols could be from underpitching and lack of good aeration technique or even wild yeast again.

 

[dgrabstein]

By whole malts I mean I threw a handful of un-milled base malt into the starter prior to boiling it as a source of yeast nutrients.

I have NEVER experienced anything like this before in my beers, this is new. It can't be the water.

I understand leaving the top open is dangerous but I didn't think it could get this bad this fast. And there were no signs of mold or anything. Just bad smells.

I didn't check FG but regardless I don't think it it should be smelling like that anyways. Even after cold conditioning it the smell is there. It's mellowed out a bit into a kind of burning rubber smell. Slightly different than before...

As for underpitching I doubt that was the reason because it was a good sized 2L starter of Burton ale yeast.

I didn't do much to aerate the wort, can that cause things like this?

I also forgot to mention I used some home-baked malt in the mash. I baked maris otter base malt into brown malt. This was my first try home-baking malt.

Any red flags? Experience with skunk rancid sulfur mellowing to burning rubber?

 

[acidrain]

By whole malts I mean I threw a handful of un-milled base malt into the starter prior to boiling it as a source of yeast nutrients.

You mean you threw a handful of base malt into the mash? Never heard of that one before. Didn't you start with a whole mash tun full of crushed grain in the first place (or a steeping bag full if this is a partial mash)?

I understand leaving the top open is dangerous but I didn't think it could get this bad this fast. And there were no signs of mold or anything. Just bad smells.

Leaving the top open can capture lots of things. Not every contaminant will look like a blooming fungi

I didn't check FG but regardless I don't think it it should be smelling like that anyways. Even after cold conditioning it the smell is there. It's mellowed out a bit into a kind of burning rubber smell. Slightly different than before...

It certainly sounds like an infection.

As for underpitching I doubt that was the reason because it was a good sized 2L starter of Burton ale yeast.

I've never brewed with Burton, but isn't it a a very strong smelling yeast. Could it be the normal smell and flavot of that yeast?

I didn't do much to aerate the wort, can that cause things like this?

I don't think that;s it, but airation/oxygenation is extremely important to yeast health.

I also forgot to mention I used some home-baked malt in the mash. I baked maris otter base malt into brown malt. This was my first try home-baking malt.

Not that uncommon to toast malts. I doubt that's your issue.

Any red flags? Experience with skunk rancid sulfur mellowing to burning rubber?

Only that your fermenter was uncovered, and you cooled slowly.
Did you have a full rolling boil after collecting wort?
Did you top up with water in the end?
Did you follow good sanitary practices after the boil?

 

[dgrabstein]

I didn't boil. I drained from mash tun into my fermenter. This is an unusual practice I understand but the mash should've pasteurized the wort. I know DMS can be an issue with low boils/no boils, can DMS be resposible for this horrific odor?

I've brewed several other batches with this same method and not had this problem.

 

[LovesIPA]

You have some odd ideas about brewing. I don't mean that offensively, just an observation.

Adding unmilled grains to the starter? For yeast nutrient? That is a new one. Why do you think that will benefit the yeast?

Not boiling the wort? Why not?

Leaving the fermenter open for a couple of days caused the batch to get infected. Simple as that. But based of what you've posted, I'm expecting a few more surprises.

 

[dgrabstein]

You have some odd ideas about brewing. I don't mean that offensively, just an observation.

Adding unmilled grains to the starter? For yeast nutrient? That is a new one. Why do you think that will benefit the yeast?

Not boiling the wort? Why not?

Leaving the fermenter open for a couple of days caused the batch to get infected. Simple as that. But based of what you've posted, I'm expecting a few more surprises.

Lol, I most certainly understand your sentiment. I've built my brewing system from the ground up and I have a few unusual practices.

The unmilled grains in the starter was to add nutrients to my yeast starter in an easy, convenient way. Also, I wanted to "naturalize" my yeast to the conditions of the wort, as JPalmer would say, and introduce malt to the yeast. It was uber easy to just throw some malts in with some sucrose and water.

As for not boiling, I believe in the no-boil for a few reasons (since you asked):

1. Boiling changes the chemical structure of compounds in the wort and drives off volatile flavor and aroma compounds. Malt flavor and aroma are very high in my brews, and I'm proud to say I like it.

2. and most importantly, it saves SO MUCH time on brew day, and so much less equipment is required of my system. It's simply a better way to brew.

Don't tell anyone this though, I'm trying to keep it on the low.


Danny G

 

[LovesIPA]

Lol, I most certainly understand your sentiment. I've built my brewing system from the ground up and I have a few unusual practices.

I've often thought that the science of brewing is really in its infancy and there is so much more about it that we just don't know. Most of the methods we use were developed hundreds of years ago.

On the flip side, science has made great advances in the last 100 years and there is an awful lot that we know about brewing science.

The unmilled grains in the starter was to add nutrients to my yeast starter in an easy, convenient way. Also, I wanted to "naturalize" my yeast to the conditions of the wort, as JPalmer would say, and introduce malt to the yeast. It was uber easy to just throw some malts in with some sucrose and water.

The unmilled grains aren't going to add anything to the starter. There are no nutrients in the husk. Everything the yeast need is inside, which is inaccessible.

You definitely do want to acclimate the yeast to consuming maltose, and for that reason you should never use sucrose in a starter. The yeast will get "used" to consuming sucrose, and won't be able to ferment maltose as efficiently as they can when they grow up on it, so to speak.

As for not boiling, I believe in the no-boil for a few reasons (since you asked):

1. Boiling changes the chemical structure of compounds in the wort and drives off volatile flavor and aroma compounds. Malt flavor and aroma are very high in my brews, and I'm proud to say I like it.

2. and most importantly, it saves SO MUCH time on brew day, and so much less equipment is required of my system. It's simply a better way to brew.

I've never heard of anyone doing that. You might get some haters on here, but if you like what you brew, then I say keep on keepin' on.

I'd love to try one of your brews, though!

 

[afr0byte]

Lol, I most certainly understand your sentiment. I've built my brewing system from the ground up and I have a few unusual practices.

The unmilled grains in the starter was to add nutrients to my yeast starter in an easy, convenient way. Also, I wanted to "naturalize" my yeast to the conditions of the wort, as JPalmer would say, and introduce malt to the yeast. It was uber easy to just throw some malts in with some sucrose and water.

As for not boiling, I believe in the no-boil for a few reasons (since you asked):

1. Boiling changes the chemical structure of compounds in the wort and drives off volatile flavor and aroma compounds. Malt flavor and aroma are very high in my brews, and I'm proud to say I like it.

2. and most importantly, it saves SO MUCH time on brew day, and so much less equipment is required of my system. It's simply a better way to brew.

Don't tell anyone this though, I'm trying to keep it on the low.


Danny G

How exactly do you get any appreciable hop bitterness in your brews? Alpha acids don't isomerize (at least not appreciably) at mash temperatures. How do you get clear beer? One important aspect of boiling is the hot break, which helps clarity. Also, presumably you're using star san or similar for sanitizing your fermeneter/transfer hose?

 

[acidrain]

Wow, no boil?
1) Not a sanitary way to brew beer
2) Not an efficient way to get any hops flavors/bitterness.
3) Takes WAY more grain to get the same SG as a boiled down wort.

I'm surprised you haven't had any previous infections.
Not hate'n... just say'n.

 

[Bobby_M]

First, pardon my assumption but I think we're being trolled hard. If you're not trolling, you really can't ask what happened to your brew when just about every accepted brewing practice is being broken. You have an extremely custom process that you are apparently happy with but now it's up to you to troubleshoot. How you haven't brewed nothing but Berliner Weiss is beyond me.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Just going to say... What a troll

 

[kbowman]

Trolled or he has been drinking a lot of his unboiled beer

 

[dgrabstein]

Troll?!

Seriously? Some people think I'm a troll because I don't brew the exact way that JPamler says to do in "How to Brew"? I'm going off my gut/ science not tradition. Do you even know why you boil for an hour with every batch???

Yes I sanizitize. And my mash pasteurizes.

I was legitimately asking if anyone has experience on the aromas I'm getting. Can anyone here tell me with certainty that a no boil will cause this problem? Or are you just offended by my style?

 

[dgrabstein]

For anyone who was interested, after lots of tasting and ageing I believe the problem is related to sulfur production and yeast stress. I fermented with inconsistent temperatures and low temperatures (55-65F) with White Labs Burton Ale yeast, which is rated 68-72F. DMS might be the culprit or a similar related sulfur compound. My slow cool-break perpetuated the problem further.

The smell has reduced substantially and the beer is actually showing promise of becoming drinkable. The taste is unaffected by the flaw at this point, but the aroma is still strong enough to raise a flag.

Thanks for the inputs that helped me on this one

 

[JuanMoore]

Troll?!

Seriously? Some people think I'm a troll because I don't brew the exact way that JPamler says to do in "How to Brew"? I'm going off my gut/ science not tradition. Do you even know why you boil for an hour with every batch???

Yes I sanizitize. And my mash pasteurizes.

I was legitimately asking if anyone has experience on the aromas I'm getting. Can anyone here tell me with certainty that a no boil will cause this problem? Or are you just offended by my style?

The fact that you're throwing virtually every brewing convention out of the window and then asking for troubleshooting advice certainly makes this look more like a troll thread than the average troubleshooting request. Not saying you're a troll, but you can't really be surprised that people might make that assumption based on what you've posted, can you?

I don't think anyone can say with certainty that no-boil causes the specific issues you're describing, because you're about the only person doing it. I'm fairly certain that DMS is created during the mash as the S-methyl-methionine breaks down. Without a boil this DMS would likely stay in the beer, and could be contributing to the flavors and aromas you're experiencing. It's also possible that some of the unconverted SMM would be broken down into DMS by the yeast during fermentation.

While most of your process is highly unconventional, there are only a couple parts of it I can say for certain have a negative effect on beer quality. One is your starter procedure. Using sucrose as the base is going to cause the yeast to become severely stressed before it even gets to the beer. Another is the fact that none of the proteins have a chance to clump during the boil, and therefore never fall out of solution. While a little extra protein in the beer is typically only a cosmetic issue, a lot of extra protein will definitely affect the flavor and mouthfeel.

I don't know what a beer full of DMS and fermented with stressed yeast would taste like, but I would guess that it wouldn't be all that pleasant. I'd guess sulfur, cooked cabbage, and some excessive ester flavors, but that's just a guess.

 

[JuanMoore]

My slow cool-break perpetuated the problem further.

Most of my beers are no-chill and have no issues. The problem isn't the slow cold break, it's the lack of a boil. As long as the break material settles out before the yeast is pitched, the break material is not an issue. The problem is that it takes forever to settle out, if at all, when you don't boil the wort and let the proteins coagulate. If you boil the wort, it will settle out before the wort reaches pitching temp.

 

[BackAlley]

.... And my mash pasteurizes.

Boy, considering all of the likely contaminants in malt and considering pasteurization doesn't kill all pathogens it sure feels like you're playing Russian roulette with this no boil process.

I suppose wine makers do the same thing though.

 

[afr0byte]

For anyone who was interested, after lots of tasting and ageing I believe the problem is related to sulfur production and yeast stress. I fermented with inconsistent temperatures and low temperatures (55-65F) with White Labs Burton Ale yeast, which is rated 68-72F. DMS might be the culprit or a similar related sulfur compound. My slow cool-break perpetuated the problem further.

The smell has reduced substantially and the beer is actually showing promise of becoming drinkable. The taste is unaffected by the flaw at this point, but the aroma is still strong enough to raise a flag.

Thanks for the inputs that helped me on this one

Yes, as others have stated. If you don't boil then you're not driving off DMS precursors. Also, as others have stated, you shouldn't use sucrose for a starter. EDIT: Also, boiling helps to further lower the pH of the wort, which would likely help to stress the yeast less as they pull the pH of the wort down during fermentation, to 4-4.5.

My question is how do you get any appreciable hop bitterness? Do you use alpha acid extract? Also, how much malt do you have to use to get a, say, 5 gallons of 1.050 wort? It must be quite a bit, relative to those who boil their wort.

 

[afr0byte]

Boy, considering all of the likely contaminants in malt and considering pasteurization doesn't kill all pathogens it sure feels like you're playing Russian roulette with this no boil process.

I suppose wine makers do the same thing though.

They often use sulfites to help kill wild nasties though. Also, I imagine a wine must would have a lower starting pH (though I haven't seen actual numbers).