Trouble moving to All-grain

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Mike T

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Hi,

Looking to see if anyone has had the same problems as myself:

I have made good extract batches and just made the move to all-grain. All 3 of my all-grain recipes have come out poorly. I hit my gravity, mashed at 152 for 60 minutes (did not hold just insulated the kettle as best I could), got the gravity I wanted but my fermentation produced a bad beer.

Has anyone made the jump to All-grain, thought they did everything correctly, but still had struggles? If so, any words of advice would be hugely appreciated.

Thanks
 
what was wrong?

edit: sorry if you covered it in your other posts, haven't seen them....

edit #2: and no, my first extract batch didn't even ferment....and i knew i wanted to be an independent drug addict at 18 so i went straight to all-grain, and kegging....
 
They taste watered down, kinda rubbery, no off-flavor I can really describe on the nose.

I've also had trouble with suckback. I tried to let this one ferment for 3 weeks (at 69) with SSbrewtech heating pad, but it sucked back on this last batch (didnt think suckback would occur keeping it at the same temperature or having it fluctuate only 1 degree). Luckily I was able to taste it prior and they all had the same flavors.

Can you relate to this. Can the mash create this big a difference on the flavor or do you think its a fermentation issue? The wort has tasted pretty normal in all 3 scenarios.
 
I think it might be a fermentation issue, so Im going to go back to do a extract batch and see if i get the same results to narrow down the error.
 
Do you have any kind of temperature control? What yeast(s) did you use? Yeast strains behave differently at different temperatures so that's something to consider.

Did you make your grain batches from kits or assemble them yourself? The ingredients could have been old or the recipes could be less than perfect.
 
I do have temperature control. Only heating and I keep with 1 degree of my temperature in the cold basement. Edit- always using WLP001

I made the 1st two from scratch, this third one I went to an all-grain sierra nevada clone that I have with extract.

The three possible scenarios I see are:
1. The mash (BIAB) is allowing for weird flavors to get in.
2. Sanitation issues
3. Problems created because I am cooling in my fermenter (SS Brewtech FTS) and not using the same amount of cold water I have used with extract.
 
I think my best bet to isolate the cause is the go back to an extract batch I have made before and see if it comes out the same. Then I will know that its a all-grain issue, not fermentation, and then can work on figuring out the cause. I would think that if everything comes out correctly then its a mashing issue.
 
Mike T said:
I do have temperature control. Only heating and I keep with 1 degree of my temperature in the cold basement. Edit- always using WLP001

I made the 1st two from scratch, this third one I went to an all-grain sierra nevada clone that I have with extract.

The three possible scenarios I see are:
1. The mash (BIAB) is allowing for weird flavors to get in.
2. Sanitation issues
3. Problems created because I am cooling in my fermenter (SS Brewtech FTS) and not using the same amount of cold water I have used with extract.
Click to expand...

usually with all-grain you don't cool by adding water...(i don't think, i know i use an immersion chiller)

and you say you just throw a blanket or something over it at 152f? maybe it falls to fast, and your getting to much attenuation. what's the gravity readings OG/FG, compared to what you get with extract?

somebody else would know more about how much attenuation you get from extract....
 
Mike T said:
I think my best bet to isolate the cause is the go back to an extract batch I have made before and see if it comes out the same. Then I will know that its a all-grain issue, not fermentation, and then can work on figuring out the cause. I would think that if everything comes out correctly then its a mashing issue.
Click to expand...

sounds like you got a head on your shoulders....making beer is pretty easy, you'll get it!

edit: (and it's too bad 'free shipping' isn't actually free! i make Brüt all the time! would love to take your watery beer off your hands! :D :mug:)

edit#2: and also, what's the recipe? not sure about extract brewing, but with all-grain you need crystal malts, and other's for 'body'....
 
Last edited:
My suggestion will probably not be popular, but I'll give it anyway:

I think that you should strip it down to some fundamentals as far as the basic steps of all-grain brewing go, including how they relate to and interact with each other. Get familiar with each step of the process, to the point where they are second nature.

My suggestion is to buy a 1-gallon all-grain kit (I prefer www.brooklynbrewshop.com) and brew two or three batches with that, so that you can get some hand-on experience with all-grain brewing that won't involve a huge investment or a lot of ruined beer. The 45$ investment will be a good one, as it can be re-used forever, and can come in handy for experimentation or recipe development.
 
Mike T said:
Edit- always using WLP001
Click to expand...

Before you give up on all-grain try a different yeast. I've got about 25 batches under my belt and have never been enamored with the chico strain.

Someone mentioned water. Yeah, that actually matters much more with all-grain than extract. I'd go after low hanging fruit first in your troubleshooting but if you still can't get rid of that flavor you're getting analyze your water or try a batch with RO and salts.
 
Water.
You've not mentioned looking at it.
When using extract, they've adjusted the water to be good for mashing, extraction, conversion, not too high in sulfates, Mg, etc

Your water is...what? Now that you are making the extract by doing your own mash, you need to see whether, for instance, you're using bottle spring water from the store; using tapwater from a well high in carbonates and iron; using water that has been through a whole house water softener and so is hella-loaded with sodium. That's the sort of thing you really need to figure out.
 
Yes, these are all great suggestions. My troubleshoot idea is to do an extract brew that i know has worked in the past to see if i get the same result as before. That will eliminate something being wrong with my fermentation. From there I am going to work on troubleshooting the mashing and go from there.

I agree that I need to keep everything constant and change one variable at a time once I know if it's a mashing issue (temperature, water, time, etc).
 
I agree with the others. Don't go back to extract, but start from the bottom up with a small batch kit and use reverse osmosis water with a little bit of calcium chloride, maybe 1/4 tsp should be enough for a simple pale ale. My all-grain batches improved significantly when I stopped using my tap water.

While it's true that small batches are the same amount of effort as a 5-gallon batch, the batches that don't turn = less disillusionment if you have to dump it or choke it down and you will brew more frequently which means really figuring out the all-grain process, including BIAB. Frequent brewing means frequent learning opportunities and better batches of beer much quicker than brewing larger batches.
 
If you've been using the same fermenting equipment, sanitation procedures, yeasts and temp control when you were doing extract batches, you can probably rule those out. Focus on the factors unique to all grain, water chemistry, mash temp, crush, grain age and storage conditions.

As others suggested, changing a bunch of things at once will not help you identify the cause of the off flavors. Try changing one thing at a time and practice on smaller batches to minimize waste.

I have experienced suck back like you described only once. I wasn't heating the fermenter, but cooling it to a constant 67°F, ambient temps around 75°F. I believe it had something to do with not having a full fermenter. I was fermenting a 2.5 gallon batch in a 7 gallon vessel. I felt like brewing and just did it with the limited ingredients I had on hand. I never had suck back like that before or since when doing full 5.5 gallon batches.
 
Thank you oneplate and cswant, Very good points. I can't completely rule out same fermentation, sanitation procedures as I upgraded my fermenter and now have temp control, which is why i made the leap to all-grain because I have all the bells and whistles now.

This thread is making me think more and more about exploring my water, which I have not done.

The suckback was really odd and has happened twice with the new fermenter, once when cold crashing (i understand) and this batch at normal temperatures. I can't put a reason on this latest one, but i plan on figuring out a cheap & effective fix.
 
It’s the water I think. With extract the water profile is done for you by a pro brewer. If you were making good beer with extract it doesn’t make sense that it’s a fermentation issue if no other part of the process has changed.
 
Were these 3 all grain batches pale beers, dark beers, or somewhere in the middle?

If your pH is too high during mashing, which is a common problem for brewers who use high alkalinity water without adjusting it, there are definite flavor issues that can surface. Most often, the beer will have a harsh bitterness, or alternately, it can be flabby and dull. Perhaps the latter describes yours.

The style matters because this issue is most obvious with pale beers. Dark beers usually have enough acidity to overcome high residual alkalinity, or at least to mask the problem a bit more with their stronger roasty flavors.
 
All pale ales so I agree with your assessments on the water. Really helpful thread, appreciate all your insight and I’m glad I asked the question.
 
Ward Labs offers a relatively inexpensive brewing water analysis, or build up from distilled/RO. There are many calculators online to help you adjust your water. PH meters are pretty cheap on amazon too. It's not as daunting as it may seem, you shouldn't have any problems. Good luck.
 
Mike T said:
Has anyone made the jump to All-grain, thought they did everything correctly, but still had struggles? If so, any words of advice would be hugely appreciated.
Click to expand...

Your idea of going back to an extract+steep batch is good. When I started brewing BIAB batches, I would alternate between extract+steep and BIAB. Now, when I'm experimenting with new processes, I continue to alternate between the new process and the process that I know works.
 
Mike T said:
Yes, these are all great suggestions. My troubleshoot idea is to do an extract brew that i know has worked in the past to see if i get the same result as before. That will eliminate something being wrong with my fermentation. From there I am going to work on troubleshooting the mashing and go from there.

I agree that I need to keep everything constant and change one variable at a time once I know if it's a mashing issue (temperature, water, time, etc).
Click to expand...
Regarding water, when you do an extract brew what water are you using, and what water did you BIAB with?
 
I use tap as well, but not for extract. I also filter it to remove the chorine/choramine. So you need to familiarize yourself with the water report and the profile for the beer you are brewing. The extract has the minerals, so using distilled water makes it the way it was intended. Coming close to the salts is typically good enough.
 
Mike T said:
Tap water, live in Boston so I know the water is quality but don’t know exact minerals in it.
Click to expand...

... and if Boston tap water worked well for you before [with your extract batches], it will work well for you again [with your extract batches]. You've brewed good extract in the past, you know the process, you know how to repeat it, so don't change anything [with your extract batches]. This is not the time to be switching water sources [for your extract batches].

edit: the above was written within the context of the OP brewing extract batches. @McKnuckle's comment (below) is correct when it comes to all grain.
 
Last edited:
I think that advice is a bit misleading. The water composition is not critical when brewing with malt extract, because you are not producing the extract yourself. When you are mashing and producing the extract from malted grains, the way the grain interacts with the water is a crucial part of the process. So there is potentially a significant difference.

This being said, I found the online Boston water quality reports: http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2019/042019.pdf ...and it seems like very soft, low alkalinity water.
 
Last edited:
McKnuckle said:
I think that advice is a bit misleading. The water composition is not critical when brewing with malt extract, because you are not producing the extract yourself. When you are mashing and producing the extract from malted grains, the way the grain interacts with the water is a crucial part of the process. So there is potentially a significant difference.

This being said, I found the online Boston water quality reports: http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2019/042019.pdf ...and it seems like very soft, low alkalinity water.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Very helpful.
 
I would like to know your process. Specifically how you chill your wort after the boil. With extract batches it is common to use top up water. All grain it is not. So if your adding cold water to your batch after the boil to chill then that easiely could be your issue with watery rubbery taste.
 
In order to let us help you nail down the issue, I would strongly suggest downloading How to Brew by Jon Palmer, and pay close attention to the section regarding off-flavors. One thing that stuck with me reading your posts above was "rubbery & watered down". The "rubbery" descriptor speaks to either too much chloramine in your water, or overstressed yeast. With extract, you don't have to worry about your water profile too much because someone else has already done it for you; with all-grain, it is of dire importance to have the best water you can get. I wouldn't go with RO water, but just plain old bottled water (most dollar stores have it in stock in one-gallon bottles, I used to buy it by the case). This will still have some of the minerals needed for a good conversion. I would try that, and fermentation temperature control (google "swamp cooler" for a cheap way to keep fermentation temperatures in check). Good luck and hope you keep on. The reward is well worth it!!
 
Mike T said:
Hi,

Looking to see if anyone has had the same problems as myself:

I have made good extract batches and just made the move to all-grain. All 3 of my all-grain recipes have come out poorly. I hit my gravity, mashed at 152 for 60 minutes (did not hold just insulated the kettle as best I could), got the gravity I wanted but my fermentation produced a bad beer.

Has anyone made the jump to All-grain, thought they did everything correctly, but still had struggles? If so, any words of advice would be hugely appreciated.

Thanks
Click to expand...
more info please
 
If you're on Quabbin water, so am I.
It is essentially RO.
My tap water, Ward labs report is 3 Ca, 0 Mg, 6 Na, 7 Cl, 1 S04-S
I couldn't make a decent English pale/mild until I started adding salts -- they were thin.
I used 1/3 Campden tablet per 7 gal water for chlorine/chloramines also.

I suggest Campden, 1 tablet for 20gal, and use the simple suggestion for water adj in this sticky and see what that does for you. It's quick and easy.
 
Mike T said:
I do have temperature control. Only heating and I keep with 1 degree of my temperature in the cold basement. Edit- always using WLP001

I made the 1st two from scratch, this third one I went to an all-grain sierra nevada clone that I have with extract.

The three possible scenarios I see are:
1. The mash (BIAB) is allowing for weird flavors to get in.
2. Sanitation issues
3. Problems created because I am cooling in my fermenter (SS Brewtech FTS) and not using the same amount of cold water I have used with extract.
Click to expand...
not sure what style youre attempting ,try using us05, k97 or 34/70.
 
Mike T said:
They taste watered down, kinda rubbery, no off-flavor I can really describe on the nose.

I've also had trouble with suckback. I tried to let this one ferment for 3 weeks (at 69) with SSbrewtech heating pad, but it sucked back on this last batch (didnt think suckback would occur keeping it at the same temperature or having it fluctuate only 1 degree). Luckily I was able to taste it prior and they all had the same flavors.

Can you relate to this. Can the mash create this big a difference on the flavor or do you think its a fermentation issue? The wort has tasted pretty normal in all 3 scenarios.
Click to expand...
rubbery as in a bandaid taste?
 

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