Trouble moving to All-grain

[McKnuckle]

I think that advice is a bit misleading. The water composition is not critical when brewing with malt extract, because you are not producing the extract yourself. When you are mashing and producing the extract from malted grains, the way the grain interacts with the water is a crucial part of the process. So there is potentially a significant difference.

This being said, I found the online Boston water quality reports: http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2019/042019.pdf ...and it seems like very soft, low alkalinity water.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think that advice is a bit misleading.

I revised my post to reflect clearly what I intended to say.

This being said, I found the online Boston water quality reports: http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2019/042019.pdf ...and it seems like very soft, low alkalinity water.

and this type of water is generally understood to be good water for brewing with extract.

 

[Mike T]

I think that advice is a bit misleading. The water composition is not critical when brewing with malt extract, because you are not producing the extract yourself. When you are mashing and producing the extract from malted grains, the way the grain interacts with the water is a crucial part of the process. So there is potentially a significant difference.

This being said, I found the online Boston water quality reports: http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2019/042019.pdf ...and it seems like very soft, low alkalinity water.

Thanks! Very helpful.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

All pale ales so I agree with your assessments on the water.

If you have some bottles left from the previous BIAB batches, you can experiment with brewing salts by adding them to the beer in the glass. This thread offers a worked out example for calculating volumes.

 

[Shades]

I would like to know your process. Specifically how you chill your wort after the boil. With extract batches it is common to use top up water. All grain it is not. So if your adding cold water to your batch after the boil to chill then that easiely could be your issue with watery rubbery taste.

 

[seatazzz]

In order to let us help you nail down the issue, I would strongly suggest downloading How to Brew by Jon Palmer, and pay close attention to the section regarding off-flavors. One thing that stuck with me reading your posts above was "rubbery & watered down". The "rubbery" descriptor speaks to either too much chloramine in your water, or overstressed yeast. With extract, you don't have to worry about your water profile too much because someone else has already done it for you; with all-grain, it is of dire importance to have the best water you can get. I wouldn't go with RO water, but just plain old bottled water (most dollar stores have it in stock in one-gallon bottles, I used to buy it by the case). This will still have some of the minerals needed for a good conversion. I would try that, and fermentation temperature control (google "swamp cooler" for a cheap way to keep fermentation temperatures in check). Good luck and hope you keep on. The reward is well worth it!!

 

[Soulshine2]

Hi,

Looking to see if anyone has had the same problems as myself:

I have made good extract batches and just made the move to all-grain. All 3 of my all-grain recipes have come out poorly. I hit my gravity, mashed at 152 for 60 minutes (did not hold just insulated the kettle as best I could), got the gravity I wanted but my fermentation produced a bad beer.

Has anyone made the jump to All-grain, thought they did everything correctly, but still had struggles? If so, any words of advice would be hugely appreciated.

Thanks

more info please

 

[balrog]

If you're on Quabbin water, so am I.
It is essentially RO.
My tap water, Ward labs report is 3 Ca, 0 Mg, 6 Na, 7 Cl, 1 S04-S
I couldn't make a decent English pale/mild until I started adding salts -- they were thin.
I used 1/3 Campden tablet per 7 gal water for chlorine/chloramines also.

I suggest Campden, 1 tablet for 20gal, and use the simple suggestion for water adj in this sticky and see what that does for you. It's quick and easy.

 

[Soulshine2]

I do have temperature control. Only heating and I keep with 1 degree of my temperature in the cold basement. Edit- always using WLP001

I made the 1st two from scratch, this third one I went to an all-grain sierra nevada clone that I have with extract.

The three possible scenarios I see are:
1. The mash (BIAB) is allowing for weird flavors to get in.
2. Sanitation issues
3. Problems created because I am cooling in my fermenter (SS Brewtech FTS) and not using the same amount of cold water I have used with extract.

not sure what style youre attempting ,try using us05, k97 or 34/70.

 

[Soulshine2]

They taste watered down, kinda rubbery, no off-flavor I can really describe on the nose.

I've also had trouble with suckback. I tried to let this one ferment for 3 weeks (at 69) with SSbrewtech heating pad, but it sucked back on this last batch (didnt think suckback would occur keeping it at the same temperature or having it fluctuate only 1 degree). Luckily I was able to taste it prior and they all had the same flavors.

Can you relate to this. Can the mash create this big a difference on the flavor or do you think its a fermentation issue? The wort has tasted pretty normal in all 3 scenarios.

rubbery as in a bandaid taste?

 

[Mike T]

I would like to know your process. Specifically how you chill your wort after the boil. With extract batches it is common to use top up water. All grain it is not. So if your adding cold water to your batch after the boil to chill then that easiely could be your issue with watery rubbery taste.

I am on the Quabbin water, so appreciate the info Balrog.

Shades - I have a SSbrewtech BME that was newly purchased. I am transferring it into that vessel after the boil and then running icewater through the chilling coils inside the fermenter. Takes some time, but reduces the need for a wort chiller. Usually takes 30 minutes to get it down and I have needed to add tap water due to boiling off too much water.

 

[kh54s10]

I am on the Quabbin water, so appreciate the info Balrog.

Shades - I have a SSbrewtech BME that was newly purchased. I am transferring it into that vessel after the boil and then running icewater through the chilling coils inside the fermenter. Takes some time, but reduces the need for a wort chiller. Usually takes 30 minutes to get it down and I have needed to add tap water due to boiling off too much water.

This is a big problem. You need to work on your boil off rate so that you end up with the proper amount of wort going into the fermenter.

I will suggest making TWO changes at one time. Start with an all grain kit or proven recipe AND use bottled water. It could be that your recipes taken from your extract days just are not so good.

I have brewed in Rhode Island and Florida and just used the tap water for 7 3/4 years without treatment other than Campden tablets. I have pretty consistently brewed beer better than the average mid priced commercial craft beer.

IMO, unless your water is BAD, it is not as critical as most make it out to be. I have yet to get or use a pH meter.
That said my next couple of purchases are probably going to be a R/O system and a pH meter. To make my good beers even better.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

IMO, unless your water is BAD, it is not as critical as most make it out to be

Agreed. A few years ago, fermentation temperatures were the big boogieman. Then infections; now it is "the water," and oxidation is waiting behind every bush to jump out at a brewer, too.

Of course, these are all important factors; and with sound fundamentals, they are all addressed.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

When I hear "rubbery" and "tap water", like a lot of people here, my thought goes immediately to chlorine/chloramine.

It sounds like the water in your area is mostly pretty good mineral-wise, but as municipalities increasingly go to chloramine to treat their water it's hell on us homebrewers. Chloramine is much more difficult with "traditional" methods to neutralize than chlorine was.

So I agree with everyone else that you should brew one batch with just bottled spring water (a couple of those big 5 gal jugs work). You won't need to worry about mineral content or chlorine/chloramine with those.

If that works and gets rid of the rubbery flavor, your next batch should be using tap water treated with campden tablets, which immediately neutralize both chlorine and chloramine. I wouldn't go all into the RO water thing just yet--just figure out whether this works.

 

[balrog]

What @bwarbiany says. Simple. Resist the urge to overcomplicate. There's plenty of time to go down that particular rabbit hole later.