American IPA Trilium Melcher Street Clone

[stonebrewer]

Nope. I regularly have been using 6ish oz of hops and just brewed a batch with 8 ounces. It just finished up, but there is no room in the kegerator currently to tap and taste it. I am looking forward to it!!

I find a lot of the NEIPAs I drink are slightly sweet, and yet are in the 50-70IBU range...and have little perceived bitterness.

 

[Mothman]

I just looked up a handful of beers in the style that I've tried and like... and they are anywhere from 15 to 70 IBU.... so I'll just go with what feels right at the time. lol

 

[Biscuits]

I'm brewing the original recipe....still up in the air whether I want to use WLP007 or 1318....also wish my spunding valve was in so I could ferment under pressure but I want to enter this into a comp which means I have to brew this weekend.

 

[anteater8]

Just bought the ingredients to brew this, but I'll be using Imperial Juice which I really enjoy in a NEIPA. I've brewed Northeast IPA on this forum over a dozen times now so I'm excited to try something a little different.

 

[Biscuits]

Put this in the keg yesterday. Aroma was out of this world and the sample tasted the same....minus some hop burn from the hops still in suspension...but once they settle this is going to be a winner.

 

[Mothman]

I plan on trying this recipe on Sunday, I had planned on grabbing a can of Imperial Juice yeast from my local homebrew shop, but they didn't have any in stock.... they are not a great shop, limited supplies, best I found in what they found was Imperial Barbarian, so I grabbed that.

I believe Barbarian is a Conan strain, and while I found some discussion of Conan in this thread, I couldn't find comments from people who used it, and their impressions.

As I understand it, Conan strains kind of overpower the hop aroma and flavour, but I don't want to have to wait to order in something else so I'll be giving it a try.

 

[degivens]

I plan on trying this recipe on Sunday, I had planned on grabbing a can of Imperial Juice yeast from my local homebrew shop, but they didn't have any in stock.... they are not a great shop, limited supplies, best I found in what they found was Imperial Barbarian, so I grabbed that.

I believe Barbarian is a Conan strain, and while I found some discussion of Conan in this thread, I couldn't find comments from people who used it, and their impressions.

As I understand it, Conan strains kind of overpower the hop aroma and flavour, but I don't want to have to wait to order in something else so I'll be giving it a try.

i have tried this recipe with conan and didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as 1318. definitely get a more pleasant fruitiness with 1318 in my experience — although many swear that conan at certain temps produces some awesome peach (i’ve had comercial examples of this just none with my own homebrew). also have tried farmhouses experimental ipa blend and that was my least fave of the 3 fwiw.

 

[Mothman]

i have tried this recipe with conan and didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as 1318. definitely get a more pleasant fruitiness with 1318 in my experience — although many swear that conan at certain temps produces some awesome peach (i’ve had comercial examples of this just none with my own homebrew). also have tried farmhouses experimental ipa blend and that was my least fave of the 3 fwiw.

If I could get some peach, that'd be great. The Barbarian yeast description says it gives stone fruit esters, which will be nice if it actually accomplishes it.

I touched base with Imperial (makers of Barbarian) and they suggest fermenting at around 68F to really push the fruity esters, so that's what I'll be targeting.

 

[degivens]

If I could get some peach, that'd be great. The Barbarian yeast description says it gives stone fruit esters, which will be nice if it actually accomplishes it.

I touched base with Imperial (makers of Barbarian) and they suggest fermenting at around 68F to really push the fruity esters, so that's what I'll be targeting.

Awesome, curious to see how it comes out!

 

[grassfeeder]

I touched base with Imperial (makers of Barbarian) and they suggest fermenting at around 68F to really push the fruity esters, so that's what I'll be targeting.

I second that, start at 68 and climb it to 72 at the tail end.

 

[Mothman]

I second that, start at 68 and climb it to 72 at the tail end.

By "climb to 72 at the tail end", would you say hold at 68 for ~ a week, then let it move up to 72 for ~ a week, then package? Or hold 68 longer, and just bump to 72 for a few days? Or only hold at 68 for a couple days and ramp up once active fermentation settles down?

Hoping I can hit my temperatures. I mostly ferment in my little brewing cave (aka storage room) low to mid-60's and use a cooler bag to maintain that, especially in spring-summer. I'll have to use living area room temp. to hold it in the high 60's at this time of year.

Our living area is usually around 65F, and I'm banking on active fermentation pushing that up to ~70F, which I can tweak down to 68F with a bit of ice in the cooler bag, then pull the ice and let it finish at room temp. Backup will be the laundry room with the door closed, and the heat bumped up.

Surely SWMBO won't mind a big Coolbrewing bag in the corner of the living room or laundry room. lol

 

[grassfeeder]

By "climb to 72 at the tail end", would you say hold at 68 for ~ a week, then let it move up to 72 for ~ a week, then package? Or hold 68 longer, and just bump to 72 for a few days? Or only hold at 68 for a couple days and ramp up once active fermentation settles down?

Hoping I can hit my temperatures. I mostly ferment in my little brewing cave (aka storage room) low to mid-60's and use a cooler bag to maintain that, especially in spring-summer. I'll have to use living area room temp. to hold it in the high 60's at this time of year.

Our living area is usually around 65F, and I'm banking on active fermentation pushing that up to ~70F, which I can tweak down to 68F with a bit of ice in the cooler bag, then pull the ice and let it finish at room temp. Backup will be the laundry room with the door closed, and the heat bumped up.

Surely SWMBO won't mind a big Coolbrewing bag in the corner of the living room or laundry room. lol

with NEIPA's I typically hold at 68 for about 5 days then ramp to 72 and hold for a couple of days. NEIPA's finish out quite fast, much faster than a normal west coast ipa. I typically go grain to keg in about 10 days and carb and let it condition for a week before going to glass.

 

[jpLV]

I agree you'll want to keep your target temp stable during active fermentation. Once things start slowing down thats when I normally start bumping up the temp slowly. Helps with getting better attenuation and also rouses the yeast so it continues to clean up after itself to get rid of off flavors.

 

[Biscuits]

So my impressions of my version of this beer (original recipe):

I have never had Melcher St. or any Trillium beer for that matter (pity me and send them please) but to me this beer turned out more like an East meets West coast type of beer. It is a well balanced bitterness/juicyness with a nice body that finishes dry. However, it lacks the creamy mouthfeel and the typical murkyness that is common in most modern NEIPAs. Initially, I was sort of disappointed with it after taking my first few drinks...but once I removed the idea that I was drinking a NEIPA and realized I was just drinking a DIPA, suddenly it became a wonderful beer. It was also at that moment that it struck me what it reminded me of....I have to get a can and do a side by side, but from memory this clone strongly reminds me of Two Roads Brewing's Two Juicy - pictured.

*Disclaimer: It is not beyond possibility that I screwed up some process or didn't do something right and it through the intended product off course.

For the sake of being thorough, I did 2:1 calcium chloride : sulfate @ 180 ppm:60 ppm, I whirlpooled for 30 minutes and added one ouce of the flamout hops every 10 minutes, and I did one dryhop charge of the total 6Oz @ 48 hours into fermentation to promote biotransformation. I also cold crashed at 37 degrees for 24 hours before kegging.

 

[Mothman]

I finally got around to brewing this (scaled down recipe based on recipe in post #123, used Imperial Barbarian yeast) on Sunday.

I had lousy efficiency in my mash so ended up topping up with about half a pound of dry extract, might mess with the resulting beer a bit, but I'm hoping not by too much.

Pitched yeast Sunday evening, and it was starting to rock and roll Monday morning, and today is going strong.

Plan is to dry hop tomorrow evening.

Question about the dryhopping... I plan on hopping using a large bag to dryhop in, for ease of removing the hop debris.

From what I understand of this style, ideally I'd probably be looking at packaging the beer around day 10 or so.

But, due to my day to day schedule, I likely wouldn't be able to do so until day 14 (assuming it's finished).

Given that, am I ok leaving the dryhops in until packaging, or should I remove the hops after by the end of day 10-ish? Or will it make a difference?

I've read some conflicting info about dryhopping too long changing up the flavour profile, and I more or less have come to the conclusion that normally I probably wouldn't really notice the difference... but with a large dryhop dosage like this, I wonder if it might matter more.

 

[stonebrewer]

I have removed them, left them in the entire fermentation, and left them in until the keg kicks with no issues with off or grassy flavors. Others have reported the opposite. It really is a flip of the coin, but every time I have flipped it (50 times or more) it has come up heads. YMMV.

 

[Mothman]

I like that answer... just run with it and all will likely be fine. Thanks!

 

[anteater8]

I finally got around to brewing this (scaled down recipe based on recipe in post #123, used Imperial Barbarian yeast) on Sunday.

I had lousy efficiency in my mash so ended up topping up with about half a pound of dry extract, might mess with the resulting beer a bit, but I'm hoping not by too much.

Pitched yeast Sunday evening, and it was starting to rock and roll Monday morning, and today is going strong.

Plan is to dry hop tomorrow evening.

Question about the dryhopping... I plan on hopping using a large bag to dryhop in, for ease of removing the hop debris.

From what I understand of this style, ideally I'd probably be looking at packaging the beer around day 10 or so.

But, due to my day to day schedule, I likely wouldn't be able to do so until day 14 (assuming it's finished).

Given that, am I ok leaving the dryhops in until packaging, or should I remove the hops after by the end of day 10-ish? Or will it make a difference?

I've read some conflicting info about dryhopping too long changing up the flavour profile, and I more or less have come to the conclusion that normally I probably wouldn't really notice the difference... but with a large dryhop dosage like this, I wonder if it might matter more.

I dry hop on day 3 and leave them in until day 14 when I keg for all my NEIPA's and they all turn out great. I'll be kegging this recipe on Sunday, excited to see how it turns out.

 

[Mothman]

Dry hopped my batch this morning, which was the morning of Day 3, about 62 hrs after pitching .

I was debating doing it last night as strong fermentation seemed to be starting to tail off, but decided to wait until today, and I may have missed it a bit. By this morning, it had calmed right down, krausen had completely fallen, and I checked the gravity , and it was already down to 1.018 (from 1.057... this Barbarian yeast doesn't fool around). I figure I should end around 1.014-15 maybe (guessing based on reported attenuation of the yeast), so there is a little ways to still go... just not sure how much of the biotransformation magic will happen.

 

[couchsending]

Adding a DH addition with more than 4-6 points to go is just wasting hops. So much will get scrubbed off with Co2 and oils pulled down with floccing yeast.

All the Street beers are one DH charge at the very end of fermentation unless it’s a DDH variant.

Someone was talking about building up yeast and getting a tartness from a Trillium Cans, thinking it was infection. That is the hallmark of 007/S04/1098. It produces a decent amount of lactic acid during fermentation especially at temps close to 68 or above. It is known for its “tart” flavor profile. If you don’t want much of that it has to be fermented at below 64. It has always been rumored this was their yeast. It’s also the dominant yeast in Treehouse beers. Although JC said they have changed yeast three times since the original yeast they used in Fort Point. It’s definiteiy not 1318. 1335 would be another possibility.

 

[grassfeeder]

Adding a DH addition with more than 4-6 points to go is just wasting hops. So much will get scrubbed off with Co2 and oils pulled down with floccing yeast.

Might be the only time I've ever heard this said.

 

[couchsending]

Might be the only time I've ever heard this said.

Try and find a recipe from any pro brewer anywhere that mentions anything to the contrary. I have never seen one. Not from Nate, JC, weldwerks, great notion, Bissell, Firestone, etc. I have heard of Fullers adding hops to the fermenter before adding wort to their ESB I believe. But that’s it.

The highest gravity I have ever seen anyone mention adding hops is 1.020-1.022 I believe. This is for a beer with a FG of 1.015. That is from the Weldwerks Juicy Bits recipe.

 

[grassfeeder]

Try and find a recipe from any pro brewer anywhere that mentions anything to the contrary. I have never seen one. Not from Nate, JC, weldwerks, great notion, Bissell, Firestone, etc. I have heard of Fullers adding hops to the fermenter before adding wort to their ESB I believe. But that’s it.

I recant my previous statement as my math was quite a bit off in my head. That should put things right about the last .25 of fermentation I would imagine which I believe to be pretty optimal.

 

[stonebrewer]

Try and find a recipe from any pro brewer anywhere that mentions anything to the contrary. I have never seen one. Not from Nate, JC, weldwerks, great notion, Bissell, Firestone, etc. I have heard of Fullers adding hops to the fermenter before adding wort to their ESB I believe. But that’s it.

The highest gravity I have ever seen anyone mention adding hops is 1.020-1.022 I believe. This is for a beer with a FG of 1.015. That is from the Weldwerks Juicy Bits recipe.

While I don't doubt your research, there are some counterpoints to make. JC actually addressed the CO2 stripping to me via email and told me to ferment under pressure to prevent this. I believe it was Mitch Steele who coined the term, or at least introduced it to a wide audience, biotransformation, where there is interaction between hops and yeast. Terpenoid levels have been shown to skyrocket in beers where this biotransformation occurred, with a result of more complex hop aromas, as non-aromatic glycosides are transformed into aromatic terpenoids. Interesting thing to note is that yeast vary widely in their ability to increase terpenoid levels, so some yeasts are definitely better at creating complex hop aromas. For me, the jury is still out on when to add hops, and experiments do show that you get very different beers using all the same ingredients, but putting the hops in at either high krausen or once fermentation has ended (or nearly so)...

 

[couchsending]

Matt Bryndlson I believe was the person who popularized dry hopping with yeast activity but I could be wrong. I’m sure there are others before him but he is the most well known advocate for it. Yet he always mentions right before Terminal Gravity not any earlier. I’ve listened to countless podcasts that feature Matt and read lots of articles on him and his methods.

I do believe biotransformation is thing but I still believe doing it too early is a waste. There is still plenty of yeast activity at the end of fermentation to get plenty of transformation but there is less yeast to drag down oils and other volatiles when it floccs. I have never seen any professional brewer advocate for dry hopping at high krausen.

What specifically did JC mention about fermenting under pressure? Was he speaking in reference to spunding? Bunging with a few points left and dry hopping at the same time to naturally carbonate and not blow off aroma? Cause I’ve seen him reference that. I don’t think they’re fermenting under pressure the whole time thoughz. I know Nate from Treehouse has mentioned that they tried a whole ferment under pressure but didn’t like it so they don’t do it anymore.

 

[couchsending]

Also in reference to the whole Trillium yeast that was built up being really tart or Sour... just poured a little of my starter of 007 out and measured the PH.. 3.88

007/S04/1098 produces a lot of acid, especially when fermented warm. Some say that could add to the perception of Juice??? To lessen the acid production I believe it needs to be fermented lower.. 62ish based on what I’ve read.

 

[Mothman]

Did another gravity check this morning (day 6) and it dropped further than I predicted, after 1.013 now, which I'm happy with, hopefully a little more of the magic biotransformation took place.

Will do another check in a couple days to confirm it's done.

On that note, I've read lots (including grassfeeders post here a few days ago) that NE IPAs tend to finish fast.

Why is that? What is it about NE IPA recipes that get them to finish up more quickly?

 

[grassfeeder]

Did another gravity check this morning (day 6) and it dropped further than I predicted, after 1.013 now, which I'm happy with, hopefully a little more of the magic biotransformation took place.

Will do another check in a couple days to confirm it's done.

On that note, I've read lots (including grassfeeders post here a few days ago) that NE IPAs tend to finish fast.

Why is that? What is it about NE IPA recipes that get them to finish up more quickly?

They tend to finish quicker only because the process of things is pushed up faster. People are dry hopping during an active fermentation versus waiting for it to finish up then hopping it. That along saves maybe 3-4 days. People also aren't trying to drop everything out of them to get that nice clear IPA either, subtract a couple more days. You get the idea.

 

[stonebrewer]

@couchsending - JC and I had several back and forth emails and basically he told me to ferment in a closed vessel under pressure to avoid the CO2 stripping the aroma off. I have been doing that for a while with great results. I do not spund/DH until 2-3 days in as he suggested, then add hops and spund. At this point, we are past high krausen but still actively fermenting. This is what he recommended and I am making the best IPAs of my life. So my process is to spund at day 2-3 and ramp up the pressure so that the beer is carbonated when fermentation completes. System is closed to O2 ingress, hops float free, use stainless steel screens to prevent clogs. Anyhow, I am pretty sure there is more than 4-6 points left when I follow the above process, and the beers are very aromatic, probably because of the enclosed nature of my fermentation process. That said, I am willing to give my next beer a go at trying it your way to see if I can tell a difference! Cheers!

 

[Mothman]

Grassfeeder, thanks that makes total sense.

Back to the topic of my go at this recipe... Like I said I took a gravity sample this morning and I put the sample in the fridge for the day to drop out a bunch of the hop debris (lots of it as I took the sample from right in the thick of the hops).

I just poured off the sample and gave it a sniff and sip test.

The smell is great. Tons of stone fruit. The taste, we'll, not sure yet , as it was quite a bit more bitter than I hoped/expected.

The sample also is missing the murky haze of a NE IPA , but I've never had the original commercial beer so don't know how it compares.

Anyhoo, I'm excited for this to finish, get it carbonated, and see what the final result is like.

I'm bottling, so will be attempting to drink this fast before it goes sideways. Only expect to collect about 3 gallons into bottles so shouldn't be too challenging and I get through it.