Transferring with some gravity left instead of purging kegs.

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beervoid

Hophead & Pellet Rubber
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Hello everyone,

I'm trying to make my process as simple as possible, like probably most of you.

As purging keg's seems like a big waste of CO2 and water purging is extra work.

I've been wondering what if I ferment my beer and just transfer it to an unpurged keg with either a few points left or by adding some sugar and then spund it to naturally carbonate and at the same time let the active yeast scavenge all oxygen from the unpurged keg?

Does transferring to an unpurged keg provide too much oxygen for the yeast to scavenge? resulting in oxidation.

Any thoughts are welcome.
Cheers!
 
Just found this piece of literature and if I understand it correct after 12h of start of fermentation DO went from 900ppm to 50ppm
http://www.********************/wp-.../The-Control-of-Oxygen-in-Beer-Processing.pdf

This seems to suggest yeast is pretty good at scavenging oxygen at least in the first stage of fermentation.
 
Be prepared for a bunch of different answers. Some will say oxidation is a myth and their beers are fine. Others will say preventing beer from oxidation is critical.

I purge my receiving keg by hooking up the fermenter to keg via tubing and spunding valve. The fermenter flushes the receiving keg with CO2 during fermentation and I then transfer with around 5 or so pints left to go and then naturally carbonate with spunding valve.
 
Be prepared for a bunch of different answers. Some will say oxidation is a myth and their beers are fine. Others will say preventing beer from oxidation is critical.

I purge my receiving keg by hooking up the fermenter to keg via tubing and spunding valve. The fermenter flushes the receiving keg with CO2 during fermentation and I then transfer with around 5 or so pints left to go and then naturally carbonate with spunding valve.

I have looked into this method and for me arise 2 problems.
I won't be able to do a 2nd dry hop in the receiving keg. (unless I put the hops early but I wouldn't be comfortable with leaving hops that long there)

As I fill my keg pretty full I almost always get a substantial amount of blowoff coming out first. (could be solved by using a blowoff in the beginning or adding another vessel to capture it)

I'm interested to try this out as it makes everything so much more simple. Why go through the effort of purging the keg if u transfer early to spund and naturally carbonate if the yeast can clean up any oxygen anyway.
 
There are a few issues with this approach, though the theory is fine. It's no different in a way than bottle conditioning using priming sugar. I've done it a few times.

One issue is timing it correctly. Some people are confident enough in their process that they simply transfer with 5 points of gravity remaining, and that will, assuming about a 64 degree ferm temp, get you about 2 1/2 volumes of carbonation. Crash the beer when fermentation is done and voila! Carbed beer!

But how do you tell how many points remain? You can take samples, of course, and if you're careful and since the yeast is still working, O2 exposure should be limited. Some people use a TILT hydrometer to monitor this. I have one, and have had success with it, though it's not perfect.

Another issue is that you need to be there when 5 points remain, and transfer. What happens if it's at 5 points at 7:30am and you need to be to work by 8:00? There's a relatively small window during which you can transfer, and if you miss it, you miss it.

This can be managed by using a spunding valve and transferring with more than 5 points remaining, so you get the carbonation you want.

A third issue is that when you crash the beer, you'll have a fair amount of yeast/trub at the bottom of your keg. You can manage this if you want with a floating dip tube so you draw beer from the top of the beer, not the bottom. Others cut the liquid dip tube a bit shorter so it's not drawing quite so low.

As for me, one reason I went to kegging was so I didn't have crap at the bottom of a bottle of beer. This method duplicates that, which for me is moving backwards.

************

@Iseneye describes the process I often do: I run the CO2 produced in the fermenter through the keg, purging it. CO2 from a bottle isn't pure (unless you pay more to get pure). Typically 99.5 percent is CO2, the rest is air. Air is 21 percent O2, so you have .1 percent O2 in your bottled CO2. Purging the keg with fermenter CO2 is using pure CO2, so you're eliminating that small amount of oxygen. I go further; I fill the keg with Star-San, then push that to the next clean keg using bottled CO2. That gives me a nearly perfect atmosphere in the keg. Feed the fermenter CO2 into the purged keg, and it's as perfect as you can get.

Since 5 points gets you about 2.5 volumes of carbonation, if you have a 50-point drop (say from 1.060 to 1.010), that's 25 volumes of CO2. Purging your keg 25 times will get you as close to perfect as you can get.

I don't like using bottled CO2 to purge kegs, there's a cost, but it's not that great a cost. So for me, that's the process.

************

Depending on your fermenter, if you're racking and allowing air to come into the fermenter as it drains/racks, you're exposing the top of the beer to oxygen. What you can do is feed the displaced CO2 from the keg back into the top of the fermenter so air isn't entering. The pic shows me feeding back to an airlock--I cut off the top so it would accept the tubing--but I've since cut a small section of rigid tubing from a bottle filler and I stick that through a stopper when I do this.

o2freeracking2.jpg

************

Given that I don't really care for having crap in the bottom of my keg, but I do believe in the value of limiting O2 exposure as much as possible, my current approach is to seal up my stainless Spike conical with about 7-10 points remaining, and letting it finish under pressure. It ends up giving me about 13 psi inside the fermenter when finished, and the PRV on the fermenter controls that. That's at about 64 degrees, and results in about 1.5 (give or take) volumes of carbonation. I then pressure-transfer to a purged keg, so that for all intents and purposes I have no oxygen in my beer at that point.

It's not fully carbed, so I'll put it on the gas to finish. This adds a small amount of O2 to that beer that comes along w/ the bottled CO2, but to this point I've not been able to discern that in the beer. Some people, I think, are very sensitive to oxidation flavors in beer, but I can't detect such a small level myself.
 
Mongoose brings up some good points.

It doesn’t sound like this would make the process simpler, hooking up the CO2 is simple, watching the gravity and transferring at just the right time isn’t. How are you pulling all of these samples to determine just the right time?

Purging is hardly wasteful. Purge with quick shots of gas at a moderate pressure and when you are done you should have a very low pressure in the keg. It’s maybe a dollar of CO2 if you do it right.
 
Mongoose brings up some good points.

It doesn’t sound like this would make the process simpler, hooking up the CO2 is simple, watching the gravity and transferring at just the right time isn’t. How are you pulling all of these samples to determine just the right time?

Purging is hardly wasteful. Purge with quick shots of gas at a moderate pressure and when you are done you should have a very low pressure in the keg. It’s maybe a dollar of CO2 if you do it right.

I'd guess more like 20 cents or so. I have a 10# tank in my brew space I use for things like pushing star-san from keg to keg, pressure tranfers in the big conical (which has a 6+ gallon headspace when I do half-batches in the 10-gallon conical), pushing liquid through the counterflow chiller, and so on. That lasted well over a year, and I JUST had to refill it--$23. I'm guessing that maybe 20 cents to purge a keg of star-san, maybe less.
 
Mongoose brings up some good points.

It doesn’t sound like this would make the process simpler, hooking up the CO2 is simple, watching the gravity and transferring at just the right time isn’t. How are you pulling all of these samples to determine just the right time?

Purging is hardly wasteful. Purge with quick shots of gas at a moderate pressure and when you are done you should have a very low pressure in the keg. It’s maybe a dollar of CO2 if you do it right.

It's a pain in the ass to get CO2 where i'm from.

Why go through all the effort to purge the keg if you can let the yeast do the work.
In my experience it's not that difficult to time it right when using a spunding valve.

I wait till the bubbles slowdown and then spund. No need to take samples and possibly letting oxygen in.
Right now i'm actually serving from my fermentation vessel.
I use a floating dip tube system.

I want to experiment with transfering off the hops and yeast for flavour purposes and trying to up my game on dry hops.
So that would mean I could simplify my process to the following steps.

Transfer wort in keg with blowoff tube and add yeast
Add 1st dry hop charge
Wait for fermentation to slow down (add 2nd dry hop here or in serving keg), take off blowoff tube and transfer with some points left to non purged but spunded serving keg.
 
It's a pain in the ass to get CO2 where i'm from.

OK, good reason not to use up a supply difficult to get.

Why go through all the effort to purge the keg if you can let the yeast do the work.
In my experience it's not that difficult to time it right when using a spunding valve.

Well, it depends on what you consider effort, and whether the outcome is satisfying or not. If you're satisfied, then things are fine.

I don't really like all that stuff in my beer. That in itself justifies the effort, in my case. It may not do so in your case.

I have another way to limit oxygen in the beer, that doesn't involve getting dregs in the keg. That works for me, and I'm satisfied with it.

I'm glad it works for you.
 
It's a pain in the ass to get CO2 where i'm from.

Why go through all the effort to purge the keg if you can let the yeast do the work.
In my experience it's not that difficult to time it right when using a spunding valve.

I wait till the bubbles slowdown and then spund. No need to take samples and possibly letting oxygen in.
Right now i'm actually serving from my fermentation vessel.
I use a floating dip tube system.

I want to experiment with transfering off the hops and yeast for flavour purposes and trying to up my game on dry hops.
So that would mean I could simplify my process to the following steps.

Transfer wort in keg with blowoff tube and add yeast
Add 1st dry hop charge
Wait for fermentation to slow down (add 2nd dry hop here or in serving keg), take off blowoff tube and transfer with some points left to non purged but spunded serving keg.

The problem with that logic is it chances on the idea that no oxygen ingress occurs during the transferring process, which is inaccurate. Most of the oxygen ingress is going to occur from contact with atmospheric air, which will diffuse into the beer due to the law of partial pressures. If you have a keg full of atmospheric air (21% O2) vice a purged keg (0.1% O2), you’re going to see much faster rates of diffusion. It probably won’t reach equilibrium (8 ppm) but I definitely think it’s possible to achieve 1-3 ppm, which is beyond the taste threshold of some individuals.

Yeast aren’t magical creatures that scavenge oxygen during anaerobic fermentation — that only happens during the initial lag and aerobic fermentation phases when the yeast population is still growing. If you want to take advantage of that characteristic, try krausening your beer. I could understand not purging the receiving keg if you’re putting fresh krausen in first.
 
Does transferring to an unpurged keg provide too much oxygen for the yeast to scavenge? resulting in oxidation.

Any thoughts are welcome.
Cheers!

Based on what I've read on other forums the oxidation happens too quickly for the yeast to respond in time. We are talking 1 part per billion tolerances.

Double dry hopping is a challenge with the closed system. I place keg hops in the receiving keg right at the start and that gets flushed with CO2 and that stays in for life of keg. You could also put the hops in the fermenter at start of fermentation as well. As the NEIPA style is extra prone to oxidative effects it's a compromise you may need to make. Having a fresh hoppy beer for months in the keg is worth it for me (read a number of the NEIPA threads where peoples beers are oxidizing quickly).
 
The problem with that logic is it chances on the idea that no oxygen ingress occurs during the transferring process, which is inaccurate. Most of the oxygen ingress is going to occur from contact with atmospheric air, which will diffuse into the beer due to the law of partial pressures. If you have a keg full of atmospheric air (21% O2) vice a purged keg (0.1% O2), you’re going to see much faster rates of diffusion. It probably won’t reach equilibrium (8 ppm) but I definitely think it’s possible to achieve 1-3 ppm, which is beyond the taste threshold of some individuals.

Yeast aren’t magical creatures that scavenge oxygen during anaerobic fermentation — that only happens during the initial lag and aerobic fermentation phases when the yeast population is still growing. If you want to take advantage of that characteristic, try krausening your beer. I could understand not purging the receiving keg if you’re putting fresh krausen in first.

Very good information, that would make my whole idea pointless, thank you that's what I was wondering.
Putting a 2nd dose of fresh krausen will be more tricky then going to the purge keg with co2 from fermentation route.
Guess I will have to build a setup!

Thanks everyone for replying!
 
Based on what I've read on other forums the oxidation happens too quickly for the yeast to respond in time. We are talking 1 part per billion tolerances.

Double dry hopping is a challenge with the closed system. I place keg hops in the receiving keg right at the start and that gets flushed with CO2 and that stays in for life of keg. You could also put the hops in the fermenter at start of fermentation as well. As the NEIPA style is extra prone to oxidative effects it's a compromise you may need to make. Having a fresh hoppy beer for months in the keg is worth it for me (read a number of the NEIPA threads where peoples beers are oxidizing quickly).
I've been having great results with puttin all my hops in at the end of fermentation and spunding from there.
Serving from the fermenting vessel by floating diptube system gives me nice and clean beer.

I seem to reach a maximum amount of dry hopping this way though. After going over 10oz it seems to impart too much grassy flavours most likely because of too many polyphenols being extracted from the longer contact time with dry hops, hence im looking into alternative ways to dry hop and might even be able to up the dry hop a bit more by transferring off the yeast and 1st dry hop charge.
 
OK, good reason not to use up a supply difficult to get.



Well, it depends on what you consider effort, and whether the outcome is satisfying or not. If you're satisfied, then things are fine.

I don't really like all that stuff in my beer. That in itself justifies the effort, in my case. It may not do so in your case.

I have another way to limit oxygen in the beer, that doesn't involve getting dregs in the keg. That works for me, and I'm satisfied with it.

I'm glad it works for you.
I don't seem to get any stuff in my beer since I'm using the floating diptube, might be worth it to check it out!

I'm definately going to give the water/starsan purge a go as well.

Cheers!
 
I don't seem to get any stuff in my beer since I'm using the floating diptube, might be worth it to check it out!

I actually have a Clear Beer floating dip tube apparatus; haven't ever used it. There's another one that's for a Fermentasaurus, that Morebeer was selling much cheaper but it was always out of stock. I just checked and they now have it.

I'm definately going to give the water/starsan purge a go as well.
Cheers!

I almost always have one keg that is clean and kept full of Star-san. I push that out into another clean keg, and then transfer to the purged one.

Three things (and don't ask how I know this first one :)).

First, as the now-filled keg is nearly full, you'll start getting a bunch of CO2 into that keg through the OUT dip tube. That CO2, if high enough pressure, can create an eruption of Star San solution out of the mouth of the keg. You'll have Star-San all over the floor if you don't catch it just as the now-purged keg is emptied of Star-San. I'm usually standing there watching it, and as soon as I see foam in the tubing I pull one of the QDs to stop the flow.

Second, the reason I have the lid off is that I will put it down into the mouth and as the CO2 creates bubbles of Star-San, I let those bubbles come out of the mouth and fill up the space underneath the mouth as well as the underside of the lid. What's in those bubbles? Why, CO2! So this is a way I can get the maximum amount of O2 out of that keg, leaving behind only Star-San and Star-San bubbles full of CO2. I'll attach and detach the QD as needed to generate bubbles without generating an eruption of Star San. Sounds harder than it is.

kegbubbles1.jpg kegbubbles2.jpg

So, that's done, and I have a purged empty keg, and a new one full of star san and star-san bubbles, waiting to be purged into another keg.

Third, there still will be a little Star-San in the donor keg. That probably doesn't matter all that much at some level, but it, too, will have SOME oxygen in it. Since the keg is still pressurized, I'll take a liquid OUT QD connected to some tubing, and attach it. That allows me to blow out into the sink the remaining 1/8 cup or whatever of Star-San that remains in the keg, along with any dissolved O2 in it.

Now, is all this simply an exercise in anal-retentiveness? I don't know. All I know is I want O2 out of my process on the cold side, and this is about as good as I can get it.

Good luck!
 
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