Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[WIexile]

Brewed this recipe on 10/15/19. I'd like to get some feed back on ways to improved. Taste turned out ok bu color was little off. It turned out a little bit of a darker yellow than Pseudo Sue from TG. I'd like to get it a little more of a bright yellow if possible.

2 row 5lbs 9oz
Golden Promise 6 lbs
Flaked Oats 0.5 lbs
Flaked Wheat 0.5lbs
Honey Malt 0.25 lbs

Mashed with 3.5 gallons @~152degrees (mash temp may have dropped to 145, added hot water to bring back to 152) for 60 mins
Sparged with 4 gallons @170degrees
60 min boil
FWH 0.5oz warrior hops
3 oz citra hops at flame out
3oz citra hops whirlpool when temps drops to 178 degrees
OG 1.06, wyeast 1272 yeast
Dry hop with 4oz citra on day 4
Dry hop with 3.7oz citra on day10
bottled on day 15, FG 1.012

thanks for any advice and thanks for all the info provided on this thread.

Gonna agree with Northern as that grain bill looks good to get you a pretty close Sue color. Besides ok how does it taste? Also bottling is always going to introduce more oxygen into the mix. Any chance you thought about moving towards kegging?

 

[WIexile]

Just got my fresh crop Sue clone moved into the keg, looking forward to seeing how this crop taste!

 

[Jarrod Mann]

Gonna agree with Northern as that grain bill looks good to get you a pretty close Sue color. Besides ok how does it taste? Also bottling is always going to introduce more oxygen into the mix. Any chance you thought about moving towards kegging?

I haven't thought about kegging but would consider. I also might consider changing the yeast next time to get a more fruity flavor. The 1272 was good but not quite as fruity as Sue.

 

[jturman35]

Here we are at 16 days in the keg. This is my second attempt and although I have not had Psedo Sue yet this is my best NEIPA so far.

For this version I used Imperial Juice and changed my water profile to Sulfate 95 ppm cholride 138. I’m slowly increasing and will try my next batch 100/200. I like the roundness compared to my initial batch which was really crisp.

This is really a solid recipe!

 

[WIexile]

Here we are at 16 days in the keg. This is my second attempt and although I have not had Psedo Sue yet this is my best NEIPA so far.

For this version I used Imperial Juice and changed my water profile to Sulfate 95 ppm cholride 138. I’m slowly increasing and will try my next batch 100/200. I like the roundness compared to my initial batch which was really crisp.

This is really a solid recipe!

View attachment 656314

Looks great! Is this with 2019 Citra? If so how do you like the crop this year?

 

[WIexile]

I haven't thought about kegging but would consider. I also might consider changing the yeast next time to get a more fruity flavor. The 1272 was good but not quite as fruity as Sue.

Kegging is highly suggested. Not only will it free you of the pain in the a** that is bottling... it is a much safer way to prevent oxidation of any IPA. It also a lot easier than most people think.

 

[jturman35]

Honestly I am not skilled enough to pick out the difference from year to year yet. This is what I used though. I get a good amount of citrus, mango, and grapefruit. My next version I may tone down the warrior from .65 - half an ounce it’s just a hair on the bitter side. I added enough bittering to get me around 30ibu. I’m wondering how much bittering the 6oz whirlpool adds. I know BS calculates the IBU’s but it’s not exact science. I’m also wandering how much going from 138ppm Cholride to 200pm will mask the bitterness? What I may end up doing on my next batch is leave the hop schedule alone and just change the water profile.


Dry hops I added 2oz Citra day 2, 2oz day 10, and then 2 ounces keg hops. The last version I added 3oz keg hops and the hop burn took almost two weeks to settle. This beer was drinkable much sooner.

 

[WIexile]

Latest clone attempt.

This one might be the closest yet. Fresh crop is tasting very good.

Got a Mosaic DH and a King Sue Clone ready to go tomorrow. Here's hoping they all turn out as good or better.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

View attachment 656923

Latest clone attempt.

This one might be the closest yet. Fresh crop is tasting very good.

Got a Mosaic DH and a King Sue Clone ready to go tomorrow. Here's hoping they all turn out as good or better.

Cheers

How did the King Sue clone turn out?

 

[isomerization]

Looking at brewing a King Sue clone attempt next Saturday, any feedback is appreciated.

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: King Sue clone

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Double IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6.5 gallons (fermentor volume)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.077
Final Gravity: 1.016
ABV (alternate): 8.45%
IBU (tinseth): 50.34
SRM (morey): 7
Mash pH: 5.4

FERMENTABLES:
8 lb - Pale Ale (42.1%)
8 lb - Pilsner (42.1%)
2.5 lb - White Wheat (13.2%)
0.5 lb - Honey Malt (2.6%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 21.35
1 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 13.78
6 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 170 F, IBU: 15.21
4 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
2 oz - Yakima Chief Hops - Citra LupuLN2 (Cryo) (25 AA), Type: Lupulin Pellet, AA: 25, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min

YEAST:
Wyeast - London Ale III 1318
Attenuation (custom): 78%
Fermentation Temp: 66 F (Ramp to 70 F after 2-3 days)

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Ca2: 104
Mg2: 5
Na: 50
Cl: 212
SO4: 73
HCO3: 0
Water Notes:
Mash pH target = 5.4

6.0 mL Lactic acid added to BK to drop pH to 5.1

NOTES:
Split dry hop into 2 additions, add after soft crash to 58F and then warmed to 62F. Run each addition for a day (purge with CO2 while PRV open when adding).

 

[couchsending]

I think it’s 7.8%

Have you degassed one? Can’t remember if I have. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s lower than 1.016. I haven’t had one in a while but I fondly remember it being rather light and crushable for its ABV. Some of the only IIPAs that are like that for me are HF doubles and they generally finish around 1.012 at least the Double Citra and Double Galaxy I degassed.

I’d add some sugar and lower that OG personally. It does seem wheaty to me so I think that’s a good call.

Wouldn’t surprise me if they use twice that amount in the Dry Hop. I think 4lbs per barrel is pretty standard for that type of beer these days. I might take 2oz out of WP and add it to DH and maybe add even more to DH.

 

[isomerization]

I think it’s 7.8%

Have you degassed one? Can’t remember if I have. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s lower than 1.016. I haven’t had one in a while but I fondly remember it being rather light and crushable for its ABV. Some of the only IIPAs that are like that for me are HF doubles and they generally finish around 1.012 at least the Double Citra and Double Galaxy I degassed.

I’d add some sugar and lower that OG personally. It does seem wheaty to me so I think that’s a good call.

Wouldn’t surprise me if they use twice that amount in the Dry Hop. I think 4lbs per barrel is pretty standard for that type of beer these days. I might take 2oz out of WP and add it to DH and maybe add even more to DH.

I’m going to do that, just need to hit up a liquor store.

Okay, so I’ve dropped OG to 1.068 and moved FG to 1.011 (pending real deal test) by dropping 3 lb of base malt, adding 0.5 lb cane sugar and lowering mash to 150 F.

I don’t normally go too far past 1.25 oz/gal dry hop, but why not! Dropped whirlpool to 4 oz and bumped dry hop to 8 oz T90, 2 oz cryo.

Also realized I only have 4 oz of honey malt on hand, going to swap in 4 oz of biscuit malt, thoughts there?

 

[couchsending]

Do you have any low lovinond crystal malt? That’s basically all “honey” malt is. I’d do that over biscuit personally.

2oz biscuit wouldn’t noticeable in any way though.

 

[isomerization]

Yeah I have 10L and 20L, just always worried about the caramel/toffee descriptor.

 

[isomerization]

So I’m thinking to go with base and wheat malt (plus sugar), then color with an oz or two of C60.

What SRM would you shoot for? I’m thinking 6, but always hard to estimate with the haze.

 

[WIexile]

How did the King Sue clone turn out?

Was my favorite of the bunch. Ended up a little lower abv at about 7.2% I think, which made it dangerously sessionable. Actually was just thinking about brewing that one up again with the new yeast blend I have been doing lately, half s-04 half s-33 underpitched.

 

[Eltes]

Was my favorite of the bunch. Ended up a little lower abv at about 7.2% I think, which made it dangerously sessionable. Actually was just thinking about brewing that one up again with the new yeast blend I have been doing lately, half s-04 half s-33 underpitched.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that yeast blend. S04 is my go to for NEIPA. What does S33 bring to the table in your opinion? And what's your pitch rate and fermentation temp?

 

[isomerization]

Research

 

[isomerization]

I sacrificed and drank one of each beer last night:

Degassed a sample of each (using hydrometer and digital refractometer).

Nugmo: FG = 1.014, 8.1 Brix; OG = 1.065
Pseudo Sue = 1.012, 7.0 Brix; OG = 1.056
King Sue = 1.015, 8.9 Brix; OG = 1.072

My pH meter decided to kick the bucket (needs new probe I think, at least 3 years old). Didn’t get reliable readings, but all 3 appeared to be within 0.1 of each other.

The Pseudo Sue was noticeably thinner than the other two beers. The Nugmo was noticeably more bitter than the King Sue, despite having 30 IBU versus the 50 IBU in KS.

 

[jturman35]

How do you degas? Shake several times over a period of time until all of the carbonation is gone? Thanks for the hard work and heavy research!

 

[isomerization]

How do you degas? Shake several times over a period of time until all of the carbonation is gone? Thanks for the hard work and heavy research!

pour back and forth between two cups until no more foam/gas evolves.

 

[couchsending]

Pour it through a coffee filter

I do it for every gravity reading as well as using a finishing hydrometer. Amazing how much it can change without Co2.

 

[isomerization]

Decided to use WLP007 for my King Sue clone attempt. Never used it before, any ferm temp advice is appreciated!

 

[couchsending]

Decided to use WLP007 for my King Sue clone attempt. Never used it before, any ferm temp advice is appreciated!

coldish to begin. In my experience it’s not one of those English yeasts you can ferment warm and get fruitiness without the negative aspects. I’d try to keep it below 66 to start. Maybe max at 68. My personal opinion at least.

 

[isomerization]

Yes definitely want to avoid that fruity paint thinner vibe English yeasts can throw at higher temps.

WL says 65-70, so was thinking 66 for first 50% attenuation and then bump to 70 until FG, soft crash, dry hop,etc

 

[isomerization]

Kegged my King Sue clone attempt (#1) today:

Final numbers:
pH = 4.60
OG = 1.070
FG = 1.013
~7.8% ABV

 

[Dog House Brew]

Decided to use WLP007 for my King Sue clone attempt. Never used it before, any ferm temp advice is appreciated!

I pitch at 64 for 2 days, 66 for 2 days and let it then rise to ambient. I actually use it on any IPA I make.

 

[isomerization]

Here’s an update on my first attempt at a King Sue clone:

First pic has mine on the left and the real deal on the right. Their beer was quite a bit more turbid than I recalled! For fun, I made a 50/50 blend (second pic), which turned out gorgeous.

Aroma is comparable, but this was also a 3 month old can, so not exactly giving myself props there. Side question, I don’t have a way to rouse hops with co2. When maintaining head pressure, I feel like the hops drop out very quickly. Should I just vent the pressure after adding hops and let it sit?

Back to the clone attempt, the real deal was much more bitter AND sweeter. I’m thinking of trying LA3 next time with maybe 10% oats and 3% honey malt added to the grain bill. I had 35 IBU in the BK (I whirlpool below 170F, so don’t count those), might bump to 50 IBU as well.

 

[skibb]

Back to the clone attempt, the real deal was much more bitter AND sweeter. I’m thinking of trying LA3 next time with maybe 10% oats and 3% honey malt added to the grain bill. I had 35 IBU in the BK (I whirlpool below 170F, so don’t count those), might bump to 50 IBU as well.

What did your FG look like compared to the real thing?

 

[couchsending]

The ability for their cans to maintain that incredibly turbid look is pretty amazing honestly. Wouldn’t surprise me if they’re using some sort of processing agent to maintain that. It’s crazy even old cans the all pour like that. What’s weird is Twisted Galaxy gets all chunky. Happened in the bombers and now the cans too.

 

[NJGeorge]

Has anyone seen this Fermentis product?
Spring’BlancheTM is a yeast extract rich in native proteins of various molecular weights which will specifically interact to produce a permanent stable haze. It is ideal to produce hazy beers (e.g. wheat beers – Belgian Style Wit / Blanches – or hazy IPAs).

Maybe breweries like TG and TH are using this product?

 

[isomerization]

What did your FG look like compared to the real thing?

FG = 1.013 for me
FG = 1.015 for King Sue

 

[isomerization]

The ability for their cans to maintain that incredibly turbid look is pretty amazing honestly. Wouldn’t surprise me if they’re using some sort of processing agent to maintain that. It’s crazy even old cans the all pour like that. What’s weird is Twisted Galaxy gets all chunky. Happened in the bombers and now the cans too.

I did gently rock the can back and forth before pouring, but yeah that’s some impressive turbidity!

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Here’s an update on my first attempt at a King Sue clone:
View attachment 681276
View attachment 681275

First pic has mine on the left and the real deal on the right. Their beer was quite a bit more turbid than I recalled! For fun, I made a 50/50 blend (second pic), which turned out gorgeous.

Aroma is comparable, but this was also a 3 month old can, so not exactly giving myself props there. Side question, I don’t have a way to rouse hops with co2. When maintaining head pressure, I feel like the hops drop out very quickly. Should I just vent the pressure after adding hops and let it sit?

Back to the clone attempt, the real deal was much more bitter AND sweeter. I’m thinking of trying LA3 next time with maybe 10% oats and 3% honey malt added to the grain bill. I had 35 IBU in the BK (I whirlpool below 170F, so don’t count those), might bump to 50 IBU as well.

I had King Sue one time. I don't recall it being that turbid but maybe it was. Tasted great though.

Alot of the commercial hazies I drink have a good bit of residual sweetness, which I think can accentuate hop flavors. On my last hazy batch I used 3-4% honey malt with LA3 yeast and it worked well.

 

[isomerization]

I had King Sue one time. I don't recall it being that turbid but maybe it was. Tasted great though.

Alot of the commercial hazies I drink have a good bit of residual sweetness, which I think can accentuate hop flavors. On my last hazy batch I used 3-4% honey malt with LA3 yeast and it worked well.

This was my first time using WLP007, I think I would appreciate it better in a WC IPA than hazy IPA. I get plenty of sweetness from LA3 with only base malt and adjunct grains. Did try adding 0.5 lb of honey to a pineapple milkshake TIPA I’m currently brewing (with LA3).

 

[Dog House Brew]

This was my first time using WLP007, I think I would appreciate it better in a WC IPA than hazy IPA. I get plenty of sweetness from LA3 with only base malt and adjunct grains. Did try adding 0.5 lb of honey to a pineapple milkshake TIPA I’m currently brewing (with LA3).

I would agree with that.

 

[NJGeorge]

Well this is weird.. canned 6/3/20. Basically crystal clear with no sediment at the bottom of the can. They must have changed their their yeast or something!

 

[couchsending]

Well this is weird.. canned 6/3/20. Basically crystal clear with no sediment at the bottom of the can. They must have changed their their yeast or something!

I’d chalk it up to a random can (or 20) off a huge (120bbl? 240bbl?) batch. Variability within a Brite tank or FV than a “yeast change”.

 

[NJGeorge]

I’d chalk it up to a random can (or 20) off a huge (120bbl? 240bbl?) batch. Variability within a Brite tank or FV than a “yeast change”.

That’s true. I’ve seen this with beers I’ve made with the clear beer draft system. But that’s such a small scale. Beer on top gets much more clear, but still. Kind of weird. You never see this with TH for example or Trill. This could have been cans from the last few fills off a brite maybe. @couchsending this is crystal clear like a lager. I’ll see how the other cans are eventually.

 

[isomerization]

That’s true. I’ve seen this with beers I’ve made with the clear beer draft system. But that’s such a small scale. Beer on top gets much more clear, but still. Kind of weird. You never see this with TH for example or Trill. This could have been cans from the last few fills off a brite maybe. @couchsending this is crystal clear like a lager. I’ll see how the other cans are eventually.

Try gently rocking the next can and see what it looks like, maybe just flocced really hard to the can bottom?