Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

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geoffey said:
I hope that's the case. I picked up a couple bottles a few weeks back and they were seriously close to dumpers. They were extreme bland and hardly worth finishing the bottle.
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I didn't finish my bottle of Sue from that same batch you got yours from probably. I also dumped 1/3 growler of that "regifter" IIPA...... I "regifted" it to my sink.

I understand the growing pains and transition as they move to new employees..... so, hopefully it was just that and these upcoming brews move back to the old standard. In the future, I will be buying a single pint/bottle though before spending additional money. I saw people buying multiple cases of that batch of Sue..... I would hate to be sitting on 20 bombers of that.

More on point......

My last batch of all-citra APA was by far the best I have ever brewed. Drank the last of it yesterday, and it was really great. I also brewed an exact copy of it, but did identical hopping schedule, but instead of all citra I broke it up 1/3 each of Citra/Centennial/Cascade.

I will post the recipe, water, etc. later when I get a chance. The thing that I really loved about this recent version is I didn't even dry hop it - and it was still the most flavorful citra beer I have brewed. I am going to keep experimenting with the same process...... Sometimes I find dryhopping to be hit and miss as to the results.
 
So uh Braufessor where's that recipe at? Looking for something good to brew this weekend!:mug:
 
gotbags-10 said:
So uh Braufessor where's that recipe at? Looking for something good to brew this weekend!:mug:
Click to expand...

Here is the recent Citra beer I did. Very good, not sue exactly, but certainly in the ball park. I did not dry hop it, so that was likely some of it.

** I brew 6.5 gallons and leave .75-1 gallons with all the hop material behind in the kettle.

92% rahr 2 row
2% each:
Wheat
flaked oats (or barley)
honey malt
cara 20

*Have added 1lb of corn sugar to the boil in the recent all citra batch I did. I have not added it in some others.

With the corn sugar version -
gravity was 1.063 after boil. Finished around 1.012 or 1.013.

150-152 mash

Warrior to bitter (1 ounce)
1 ounce citra at 15
3 ounce citra at 5
5 ounce citra in a long hopstand after flameout....... (chill with immersion chiller to 180-185, Shut chiller off. throw hops in, swirl and mix hops in....... let them sit as wort slowly cools - a good 30-45 minutes, swirling hops back up into suspension occasionally. After 30-45 minutes chill the rest of the way down to 60-63 range. I let the wort set even a bit longer to let as many hops as possible settle out before transferring to fermenter. ) It is probably 1:15-1:30 between flameout and wort into fermenter.

I used conan yeast, but would be comfortable with 1056/001, 007 or 1272 also.

Fermented 10-14 days, no dry hop, kegged and carbonated.

The alternate version that I also REALLY like, and have on tap now, is exactly the same except I turned all the citra additions into 1/3 each of citra/centennial/cascade. I made that final hop stand 6 ounces total - 2 of each.

Water Profile (I used 90%RO/10% HARD tap water):

Added Gypsum, CaCl and Epsom Salt to get the following in B'run Water -
Ca = 120
Mg = 13
Na = 8
Sulfate = 275
Chloride = 30
Bicarbonate = 40
pH = 5.37

gypsum was 1.2 grams per gallon mash and sparge water
epsom was .4 grams per gallon mash and sparge water
CaCl was .2 grams per gallon mash and sparge water

I put an additional 2 grams gypsum(total) in the boil kettle.
 
Braufessor said:
Here is the recent Citra beer I did. Very good, not sue exactly, but certainly in the ball park. I did not dry hop it, so that was likely some of it.

** I brew 6.5 gallons and leave .75-1 gallons with all the hop material behind in the kettle.

92% rahr 2 row
2% each:
Wheat
flaked oats (or barley)
honey malt
cara 20

*Have added 1lb of corn sugar to the boil in the recent all citra batch I did. I have not added it in some others.

With the corn sugar version -
gravity was 1.063 after boil. Finished around 1.012 or 1.013.

150-152 mash

Warrior to bitter (1 ounce)
1 ounce citra at 15
3 ounce citra at 5
5 ounce citra in a long hopstand after flameout....... (chill with immersion chiller to 180-185, Shut chiller off. throw hops in, swirl and mix hops in....... let them sit as wort slowly cools - a good 30-45 minutes, swirling hops back up into suspension occasionally. After 30-45 minutes chill the rest of the way down to 60-63 range. I let the wort set even a bit longer to let as many hops as possible settle out before transferring to fermenter. ) It is probably 1:15-1:30 between flameout and wort into fermenter.

I used conan yeast, but would be comfortable with 1056/001, 007 or 1272 also.

Fermented 10-14 days, no dry hop, kegged and carbonated.

The alternate version that I also REALLY like, and have on tap now, is exactly the same except I turned all the citra additions into 1/3 each of citra/centennial/cascade. I made that final hop stand 6 ounces total - 2 of each.

Water Profile (I used 90%RO/10% HARD tap water):

Added Gypsum, CaCl and Epsom Salt to get the following in B'run Water -
Ca = 120
Mg = 13
Na = 8
Sulfate = 275
Chloride = 30
Bicarbonate = 40
pH = 5.37

gypsum was 1.2 grams per gallon mash and sparge water
epsom was .4 grams per gallon mash and sparge water
CaCl was .2 grams per gallon mash and sparge water

I put an additional 2 grams gypsum(total) in the boil kettle.
Click to expand...


9:1 sulfate to chloride ratio? Do you find that works out well? Can't recall that I've seen that high sulfate without higher chloride generally in an ipa iipa or even a pale really.
 
In regard to the water..... basically, it is similar to the water profile outlined by Kelsey McNair in the Zymurgy issue from this past fall with the NHC Gold Medal Beers in it. Kelsey has won the IPA category 3 out of the last 5 years and finished 2nd once. I figured if it works for him......

In general, the "concept" of sulfate/chloride ratio is not completely useful. It is all about the total numbers. If you get zymurgy, they interviewed him about his beer (Hop Fu) and he talked in more detail about his water. I will see if I can find it.

If I was going to make one change right off, I would just use 100% RO water and get the Bicarb down to 20 instead of 40. Not that 40 is a big deal, but any bicarb is not particularly good/useful in this kind of beer.

*Once I get the recipe totally nailed down, I do plan to go back and experiment with various water profiles and different chloride levels,etc. But this profile works great for IPA's, Hoppy APA's, etc.
 
Alright braufessor I will give it a whirl this weekend. I don't have Conan but I have 1272. Better get a starter going. I will also go with 100% RO.
 
gotbags-10 said:
Alright braufessor I will give it a whirl this weekend. I don't have Conan but I have 1272. Better get a starter going. I will also go with 100% RO.
Click to expand...

Cool. Hope it turns out well for you. I think the 1272 will be a great yeast for this beer. Be interested to hear if it works for you, any changes, etc.:mug:
 
So I had planned to brew a ZD clone this weekend, but I think I'm going to go with a PseudoSue clone (or however close I can get to it) instead. This thread was a great help in pointing me in the right direction. Here's what I came up with:


Recipe: Pseudo Pseudo Sue
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.46 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 5.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 51.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
12 lbs Golden Promise (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 90.6 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.8 %
8.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 4 3.8 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.9 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 6 12.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 17.9 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 8 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 21.6 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 m Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Vermont IPA (GigaYeast #GY054) [124.21 m Yeast 11 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 4.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 16.56 qt of water at 174.1 F 152.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 185.0 F water



I like the idea of a huge whirlpool that Braufessor proposed, and while I still have 3oz there, I'll also be doing a 3oz dry hop. Also doing a FWH of Citra. Thoughts?
 
gotbags-10 said:
Alright braufessor I will give it a whirl this weekend. I don't have Conan but I have 1272. Better get a starter going. I will also go with 100% RO.
Click to expand...

Off topic but what do you ferment 1272 at? I used that yeast recently and really liked it. I kept it too cool and I didn't see the attenuation I would have liked. I didn't want to ferment too warm and get the tart that some folks talk about.
 
BreezyBrew said:
Off topic but what do you ferment 1272 at? I used that yeast recently and really liked it. I kept it too cool and I didn't see the attenuation I would have liked. I didn't want to ferment too warm and get the tart that some folks talk about.
Click to expand...


Have mine going at 65 currently. I've never actually used this yeast before so I'm kinda starting in the middle. Very curious to see how it turns out. I brewed this weekend and mashed at 149 so I'm thinking attenuation should be fine.
 
missigsfan said:
So I had planned to brew a ZD clone this weekend, but I think I'm going to go with a PseudoSue clone (or however close I can get to it) instead. This thread was a great help in pointing me in the right direction. Here's what I came up with:


Recipe: Pseudo Pseudo Sue
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.46 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 5.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 51.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
12 lbs Golden Promise (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 90.6 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.8 %
8.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 4 3.8 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.9 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 6 12.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 17.9 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 8 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 21.6 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 m Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Vermont IPA (GigaYeast #GY054) [124.21 m Yeast 11 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 4.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 16.56 qt of water at 174.1 F 152.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 185.0 F water



I like the idea of a huge whirlpool that Braufessor proposed, and while I still have 3oz there, I'll also be doing a 3oz dry hop. Also doing a FWH of Citra. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Looks like a good brew to me. I like the golden promise - great base malt. Should give the beer a great malt character. Typically, I bitter with warrior because it is clean. But .5 ounces of citra is not that much anyway. Let us know how it turns out.
 
Braufessor said:
Looks like a good brew to me. I like the golden promise - great base malt. Should give the beer a great malt character. Typically, I bitter with warrior because it is clean. But .5 ounces of citra is not that much anyway. Let us know how it turns out.
Click to expand...

Even though it doesn't make all that much difference I like having a "true" single hop beer. I figured most of this gets its IBUs from late additions anyway.
 
Bottled my "sorta sue" attempt last saturday. It was really cloudy (probably should have used a bag to dry hop), and may take a while to settle. I tried a sample before bottling - the aroma was really great - citrus and passion fruit. The flavor seemed a little lacking, but the bitterness was very smooth. We'll see how it is in a couple of weeks.
 
Drinking a fresh bottle of Sue. It's cloudy as ever (a good thing), however it is not the Sue I fell in love with. The vibrant juicy flavor is far subdued and the nose is nothing compared to old Sue. I don't think the big scale-up to the brewery is doing good things for the beer. It looks like Sue is slowly going the way of Zombie Dust, which is sad.
 
It isn't the scale up that is the problem in my opinion.... it is that Mike left and there was no one left that knew all of the details in regard to some of the process and water profile. I had a couple bottles of this last batch too Adam.... I agree. It was good, but not great like it once was.
I will say it is MUCH better than a couple batches ago. That batch was very harsh and rough. I dumped a half bottle of that batch. This one is smoother. But, I agree, the hops don't pop and it is not as juicy as it once was. It is going back in the right direction though, I will give them that. Hopefully they will continue to iron out the kinks.

I may go after brewing a specific Sue clone this weekend. Got some fresh 007 and lots of Citra. I have been playing around with using honey malt in some pale ales I have been experimenting with, so I think I am going to try that for any caramel malt type addition.
 
The latest batch was a lot different from the previous one....It was not that great. I know its not easy to be consistent but wow does it change a lot from batch to batch lately. This one reminded me of fantasy factory from Karben4 if anyone has had that. There is a lot a hype locally for that beer but it smells like an ashtray to me, which this batch of Sue had a hint of.
 
I just brewed a SMaSH beer with Sue in mind while I made the recipe. I wasn't sure of the grain bill so I went with
10 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 100.0 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 2 19.7 IBUs
1.0 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 3 15.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min Hop 4 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml] Yeast 5 -
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
5 gallon batch

I was more concerned with the hop flavor then I was with the grain bill at the moment. I plan on adding 2 more OZ of citra in the keg. Right now in the secondary the aroma I am getting is very close to sue.
 
Dry hopped 3oz a few days ago. The flavor and aroma were really catty/sweaty for a while, but the tropical flavors are coming out more and more. Almost no offensive aroma right now. 1.066 OG down to about 1.016 currently. Not as light as PseudoSue; we'll call this an IPA version of it haha.

Here's a pic of it during fermentation:
Jymu9Sf.jpg


It was just completely green at that time but it's cleared up quite a bit. Currently a pretty hazy golden yellow.

Here's a sample I just took:
1hgZjGA.jpg

Slightly cloudy with some small hop particles. I'm lowering temp now to get that to drop out. Aroma is still pretty "sweaty" but tons of mango in there too. Taste is super mango-y and grapefruit-y. Reminds me so much of SoS. I can tell this is gonna be my best brew yet.
 
Bottled and carbed! Here is the final result. I'll say that I opened this one maybe a bit early as the carbonation is still a little low, but man this is the best beer I've ever brewed. I'm in love. I wanna put my dick in it. I want it to put its dick in me. Higher in ABV than Pseudo but absolutely ridiculous hop aroma. Thanks for all the help guys! You rule.
G76c0ga.jpg
 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSVN3lijfdA[/ame]

Love it.

I just ordered another 5lbs of citra.... this years crop is outstanding based on the couple pounds I have used so far.
 
Braufessor said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSVN3lijfdA

Love it.

I just ordered another 5lbs of citra.... this years crop is outstanding based on the couple pounds I have used so far.
Click to expand...

I'm blown away by these hops. Would you recommend Hop Union or Yakima Valley, if there's much of a difference? I know Yakima packages in vacuum sealed bags which I like. Seems to keep the aroma in much better.
 
I am not recommending against Yakima as I have not used them..... but, I will recommend 1lb bags of nitrogen flushed HopUnion hops - that is what I have been buying.... and this is a great batch of citra.
 
Good to know. My Citra was from Hop Union, but the hops I have gotten from Yakima are so goddamn aromatic right out of the bag. It's ridiculous.
 
FYI, on the yeast.
http://foiegrasandfunnelcakes.com/2...ons-for-clark-lewey-toppling-goliath-brewery/

They use White Labs exclusively, they don't have a house strain nor do they want one, BUT they may mix yeast strains?

Quote;Today, all of Toppling Goliath’s yeast is flown in next day air from California from White Labs. Clark says they tend to use different yeasts for their unique components so the beers will taste differently. “I don’t want a house yeast – we will never have a house yeast – we’ll always have different variants,” he said.
 
missigsfan said:
Interesting. Not really a fan of English yeasts in American style ales though.
Click to expand...

Interesting. So you don't enjoy Three Floyds, Heady Topper, anything Stone makes, Bells, or Surly? They all use English strains or their own variant.
 
BreezyBrew said:
Interesting. So you don't enjoy Three Floyds, Heady Topper, anything Stone makes, Bells, or Surly? They all use English strains or their own variant.
Click to expand...

Not a fan of Bell's. Wasn't aware that Conan was an English yeast strain. Haven't had any Surly, and the only thing I've had from FFF is Zombie Dust. Stone has some great stuff, namely Enjoy By and Ruination 2.0.
 
BreezyBrew said:
Interesting. So you don't enjoy Three Floyds, Heady Topper, anything Stone makes, Bells, or Surly? They all use English strains or their own variant.
Click to expand...


Responses like this make me want to puke. The guy doesn't like English style yeast in American style ales and you feel the need to show off your knowledge about any brewery you can think of that's over used an "English" yeast and jump the the conclusion he mustn't like anything from those breweries. You're so cool...
 
geoffey said:
Responses like this make me want to puke. The guy doesn't like English style yeast in American style ales and you feel the need to show off your knowledge about any brewery you can think of that's over used an "English" yeast and jump the the conclusion he mustn't like anything from those breweries. You're so cool...
Click to expand...


Any which way this is a clone thread not a preference thread. The info on english yeast is value add, and important for the Sue clone. everything after that, not. Let's get back on track before the mods come to calm everyone.

Sidebar- I don't think he was one upping him but maybe questioning if he liked english yeast without realizing he enjoys breweries who use English yeast
 
droder1 said:
Any which way this is a clone thread not a preference thread. The info on english yeast is value add, and important for the Sue clone. everything after that, not. Let's get back on track before the mods come to calm everyone.

Sidebar- I don't think he was one upping him but maybe questioning if he liked english yeast without realizing he enjoys breweries who use English yeast
Click to expand...


Well put
 
My clone turned out pretty well. I had a couple of friends do a side by side, and was told the flavor and aroma were very close, but mine (which I called SortaSue) is maltier. If I did it again, maybe less or even no cara 20.

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Pseudo Sue Clone

Brew Method: Extract
Style Name: American Pale Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.075
Efficiency: 35% (steeping grains only)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.016
ABV (standard): 5.85%
IBU (tinseth): 53.32
SRM (morey): 7.18

FERMENTABLES:
3.15 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Light (37.5%)
4 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Light (47.6%)
0.25 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Wheat (3%)

STEEPING GRAINS:
1 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 20L (11.9%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 10.9
0.75 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 11.94
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 8.76
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Boil for 0 min
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 180 °F, IBU: 21.72
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Dry Hop for 6 days
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Dry Hop for 4 days

YEAST:
Wyeast - American Ale II 1272
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 74%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 60 - 72 F

NOTES:
use maris otter

Generated by Brewer's Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2015-06-27 13:54 UTC
Recipe Last Updated: 2015-06-27 13:54 UTC
 

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